Saved by Water

BillG · Sep 5, 2021

Sorry but your paragraph does not make sense to me.

If Jesus per Matthew tells his audience that he is sending out

Matthew 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Why would he tell the Apostles or why did the Apostles only baptise in the name of the Lord Jesus?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 5, 2021

Wansvic said:

Period. That's what Paul told the jailer who asked a very direct question about what he MUST DO to be saved. 'Believe' was the answer. Not 'believe and be baptized'.

Quit twisting Scripture to fit your opinions. The rest of the jailer's household didn't hear what Paul told the jailer, so that's what Paul told them. There is NO evidence that Paul taught ANYONE that they needed to be baptized to be saved.

Just because they were baptized doesn't help your opinions any. They had to believe in Christ to be saved.

Yep. Nothing here that supports your opinions.

To be saved, follow Paul's answer in v.31.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 5, 2021

Wansvic said:

Sure. What do you do with all the verses I shared about Jesus talking to and about His Father? Was He just talking to Himself? You know, a split personality communicating.

And what about the Voice during His baptism by John and the transfiguration on the mount? Was Jesus simply throwing His voice up into the clouds and sounding perfectly like thunder?

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

SophieT said:

Your post has nothing to do with the comment you are supposedly replying to.

My comment to which you did not respond:
It is easy to confirm whether what I have presented is true. Search the bible for each water baptism reference. The answer is staring everyone in the face. But sadly people will still refuse to accept the truth.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 5, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Wow. So we have more than one non Trinitarian here. Well, go take a look at post #854.

But go ahead and argue that Jesus was talking to Himself a whole lot. And all those verses I quoted (not exhaustive by any means) need to be explained if Jesus is the Son, the Father, and the Spirit.

Start with Genesis 1 and 3 and explain the use of the personal pronoun PLURALS when God is quoted.

Wansvic said:

Where do you get the idea that I don't understand something? I certainly DO understand your very unbiblical opinions.

And I've provided plenty of Scripture that totally refutes all of your opinions.

The ritual symbolizes being identified with the Savior in His death, burial and resurrection.

Your rejection of the Trinity is in itself a HUGE HERESY. Don't lecture me about rejecting the Word.

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

SophieT said:

perhaps it would be better if you would answer questions instead of telling other people they do not answer a question when they did answer but you did not like the answer so you say they did not answer

accepting or rejecting is your prerogative of course, but maybe stop directing others when you play the judge in this thread

there are no Bible believing Christians who are going to give a thumbs up on Oneness doctrine nor will they agree with your view on baptism

your views are simply not supported by scripture

I have presented scripture concerning how apostles water baptized.

BillG · Sep 5, 2021

Wansvic said:

If a believer does not speak in tongues are they saved?

We know you believe that if not baptised in the name of Jesus then they are not saved and those also who were baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Does it make any difference if someone is baptised into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

rayzor · Sep 5, 2021

wow no one saying anything about believing not being a requirement.Some of us r just arguing by our self's with no one disagreeing.i mean someone but only 2 themselfs

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

If scripture itself refutes a belief than scripture is the ultimate authority. Please take a look at scriptures that dispute that people can expect to receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe in Jesus. The scripture you point out says a person will receive the Spirit after believing what they heard. This statement does not imply it will take place in that very instant. Note that the Samaritans did not receive the Holy Ghost until days after believing the word and getting water baptized. (Acts 8) There were about 120 people in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost who believed in Jesus days before actually receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2) And, the Ephesus disciples believed Paul's message, were water baptized and afterward received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 19:1-6) As noted many times God's truth will always be confirmed by at least 2-3 witnesses. Understanding this makes it possible to be confident that what one is being taught is actually true.

As for the Galatians, context shows they were being told they had to continue to comply with the OT law as well as have faith in the NT message.

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

You may want to review scriptures in there entirety before accusing me of lying. An angel did tell Cornelius to send for Peter and he would tell him what he must do. The thing Cornelius and the group were told to do after hearing the message, and receiving the Holy Ghost was to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:3-6
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

rayzor said:

Pride????
Is that what it's called when a person just wants to be obedience to the actual word of God?According to God it's a good thing to study.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

BillG said:

One can conclude from the apostles' actions that Jesus is the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. To believe that the apostles who were taught by Jesus would do something contrary to what Jesus meant is not even remotely possible. God's word does not contradict itself. If scripture seems to be doing that, the error will always be in our understanding not God's word.

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

You may want to go to God in prayer and ask. I don't profess to have all the answers. But God sure does.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 5, 2021

Wansvic said:

This is an asinine comment! Where does Scripture itself "refute a belief that scripture is the ultimate authority"?

Please take a look at scriptures that dispute that people can expect to receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe in Jesus.[/QUOTE]
All you are doing is cherry picking verses that differ. By the time Paul wrote to the Galatians (approx 49-55 AD) the Holy Spirit was always received based on faith in Christ.

And you've been repeatedly told about the early days of the church. But you aren't listening.

Then show any verse outside of Acts where anyone received the Spirit some time after believing. That's the only way to prove your claim.

Out side of Acts. Let's just stick with the established church. Not in its infancy.

Another empty claim. What verse or verses says this?

When you throw out claims, please attach Scripture to them so I can see where you are coming from.

As it is, I have no idea, since you don't include Scripture.

I study the Bible the way the Bereans did: search the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul (or anyone else) said is true.

So I won't believe anything you claim unless you have Scripture to prove your claim.

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

BillG said:

Since these truths are confirmed in the word I agree they are necessary. To say otherwise would be a rejection of what is clearly seen in the word.

Biblical truths will always be confirmed by at least 2-3 witnesses. The bible shows clearly that the proper way to water baptize is in the name of the Lord Jesus. This is proven by the use of Jesus' name in all of the biblical records depicting actual water baptisms. And as for speaking in tongues, Peter stated that what the people heard and saw was the result of their receiving the Holy Ghost. Speaking in tongues accompanied receiving the Holy Ghost in numerous scriptures as well. (Acts 2:1-4, 10:44-48, 19:1-6) In other scriptures speaking in tongues is implied or confirmed by comments made in the word. (Acts 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 1 Cor. 14:18)

Even though the scripture does not reference Paul speaking in tongues upon receiving the Holy Ghost we know he did. In 1 Cor 14:18 we see Paul does speak and sing in tongues but when in church he would rather speak in a language understood by others in order to teach.

Lastly, scripture indicates it's proper to ask for the Holy Spirit. This scripture also provides proof that people cannot expect to receive it the instant they believe the gospel:
“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” Luke 11:13

Peter informed listeners at Pentecost after they believed in Jesus that it must repent, and everyone was to be water baptized in Jesus name’ and that they could expect to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost as well. This promise was not only for those present but extended to as the Lord shall call. (Acts 2:38-39)

Wansvic · Sep 5, 2021

rayzor said:

Believing is the first requirement. And has been stated in the discussion.

BillG · Sep 5, 2021

Wansvic said:

Then surely one can conclude that when Jesus said

Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

That is the prescribed words that Jesus ?

So who was Jesus talking to in Matthew?
Can I conclude it was not want Apostles?
Can I conclude Peter was not party to what Jesus said in Matthew?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 5, 2021

Wansvic said:

Rather, you SHOULD review all my posts before making such an absurd charge. I've never accused you of lying. I have plenty of times accused you of twisting Scripture, misreading Scripture, failing to understand Scripture (shall I go on?).

Quote the verse. I don't believe your claim.

OK, I see your error. You even bolded it for me!

The bolded words in v.6 don't occur in the original.

New International Version
He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

New Living Translation
He is staying with Simon, a tanner who lives near the seashore.”

English Standard Version
He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

Berean Study Bible
He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

Berean Literal Bible
He lodges with a certain Simon, a tanner whose house is by the sea."

King James Bible
He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

New King James Version
He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.”

New American Standard Bible
he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.”

NASB 1995
he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.”

NASB 1977
he is staying with a certain tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.”

Amplified Bible
he is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

Christian Standard Bible
He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

American Standard Version
he lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Behold, he dwells in the house of Shimeon a Tanner which is on the seaside.”

Contemporary English Version
He is staying with Simon the leather maker, who lives in a house near the sea."

Douay-Rheims Bible
He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side. He will tell thee what thou must do.

English Revised Version
he lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side.

Good News Translation
He is a guest in the home of a tanner of leather named Simon, who lives by the sea."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He is a guest of Simon, a leatherworker, whose house is by the sea."

International Standard Version
He is a guest of Simon, a leatherworker, whose house is by the sea."

Literal Standard Version
this one lodges with a certain Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea; this one will speak to you what you must do.”

NET Bible
This man is staying as a guest with a man named Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea."

New Heart English Bible
He lodges with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the seaside."

Weymouth New Testament
He is staying as a guest with Simon, a tanner, who has a house close to the sea."

World English Bible
He lodges with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the seaside."

Young's Literal Translation
this one doth lodge with a certain Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea; this one shall speak to thee what it behoveth thee to do.'

So, out of 27 English translations, only 5 have the words you bolded. So, you are going to ignore the vast majority of scholars and what they translated.

What I do know about the KJV and Douay-Rheims and Young's is that those translations came from much NEWER manuscripts than the other newer translations. And that is important. Because the newer translations have much older manuscripts.

The KJV, for example, used hand copied manuscripts dated from the 10th Century. But the modern translations used manuscripts that date back as far as the 2nd Century, making those manuscripts MUCH MORE reliable with less scribal ERRORS.

However, let's go ahead and accept your 18% of translations as legit. So the question is what did Peter tell them what TO DO?

Well, from Acts 11:14 we have this verse: He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

Hm. That sounds familiar. A certain jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul told him to "believe and you will be saved". Acts 16:31

So, rather than your concocted fantasy that Peter told Cornelius to be water baptized to be saved, Peter told him the same thing Paul told the jailer.

Mystery solved. You're welcome.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 5, 2021

Wansvic said:

What I do know for sure is that you have no answers at all.

And I already ask for wisdom and discernment when I read His Word. So I can ferret out false doctrine, such as you are spewing.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 5, 2021

Wansvic said:

According to Paul, the worlds foremost evangelist, it is the ONLY requirement, as shown in his answer to the jailer.

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