SAVED BY WORKS

[kennethcadwell]

1 Timothy 1:5-7 ESV
5The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Your scripture does not apply to me because I do not teach the Mosaic laws which is the context here.
The thing though is that if you deny God's moral laws that are written in our hearts and on our mind, then that is a far other issue that one must deal with. Because we can no longer transgress the Mosaic laws because those written ordinances to be put to death in the flesh do not apply to us.
However if you call yourself a brother or sister in Christ and transgress His moral laws, then the bible says you will face judgment and the lake of fire.

 

[kennethcadwell]

But you deny OSAS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!which means you are in UNBELIEF and make Christ a liar !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No because the bible does not teach OSAS...............

The only way OSAS can even be valid by biblical standards is if the person who calls themselves a believer in Christ continue from day one in their obedience to the faith tell the day they die in the flesh keeping their faith in Christ.
But then again it still does not work because the Holy Spirit expressly says that many will fall away from the faith, and not stay in God's grace as the Galatians did.
Apostle Paul says they stopped walking in the gospel of Christ to another gospel of trying to be justified by the law. Paul says they have been bewitched by this false teaching turning them away from Christ, and in so doing Christ has become of no affect (no remission of sins) to them and they have fallen from grace (Not under grace, no salvation). There are many scriptures in the bible that refutes once saved always saved, and most of them come from Paul.

 

[michael56]

However if you call yourself a brother or sister in Christ and transgress His moral laws, then the bible says you will face judgment and the lake of fire.

The above perfectly illustrates you living under a law of righteousness Kenneth. When Paul died to a law of righteousness, he died to the whole law. Paul gave an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness. What example did he give?

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet(one of the Ten Commaandments)
.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. Rom 7:7-11

You live under a law of righteousness in respect of the ten commandments, Paul did not.

 

[pem]

No because the bible does not teach OSAS...............

The only way OSAS can even be valid by biblical standards is if the person who calls themselves a believer in Christ continue from day one in their obedience to the faith tell the day they die in the flesh keeping their faith in Christ.
But then again it still does not work because the Holy Spirit expressly says that many will fall away from the faith, and not stay in God's grace as the Galatians did.
Apostle Paul says they stopped walking in the gospel of Christ to another gospel of trying to be justified by the law. Paul says they have been bewitched by this false teaching turning them away from Christ, and in so doing Christ has become of no affect (no remission of sins) to them and they have fallen from grace (Not under grace, no salvation). There are many scriptures in the bible that refutes once saved always saved, and most of them come from Paul.

Then you are the only Christian on Earth Kenneth - congratulations

 

[kennethcadwell]

The above perfectly illustrates you living under a law of righteousness Kenneth. When Paul died to a law of righteousness, he died to the whole law. Paul gave an example of why he had to die to a law of righteousness. What example did he give?

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet(one of the Ten Commaandments)
.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. Rom 7:7-11

You live under the law in respect of the ten commandments, Paul did not.

Dying to the law Paul shows that when you walk in the Spirit you will not transgress the moral law, because love does no wrong. When you do wrong by sinning you have still placed yourself under the law. Not by living by the righteousness of the Spirit. You do realize there is a difference between the Mosaic law we are not under, and God's moral laws that still apply as God places them in our hearts and minds.

Apostle Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 5 that if anybody named a brother still lives by the flesh (sinful lifestyle) and does not give it up then you are to cast them out of the church and not even eat with them. Paul constantly stresses you can not live a sinful lifestyle and walk in the Spirit both, as they contradict each other.


[h=1]Romans 13:9-11[/h]9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

 

[RememberTheSabbathDay]

Your response to Momo10 is logical but NOT CORRECT.

Please see my response to Momo10 above.

Brother God does not deal in logic and neither do I. The preparations u are speaking of was during the old ceremonies during Moses and Jesus time before Jesus was slain. Do a history check. Look at the Hebrew meaning of the word Sabbath..its origin. Brother you were brought up in the traditions which Jesus spoke against. The traditions of men making them the doctrines of God. Jesus came to fulfill the law not to abolish it.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

It is both a song and a prayer, and David constantly sang and danced to the Lord in prayer, songs, music, and so on...
If you are trying to say that Davids songs of prayer are not valid, then you go against how God said he is a man after His own heart by doing these things. David did everything for the love of God, and when he did mess up in adultery and murder he repented of it to receive God's forgiveness. That same standard still applies under the new covenant, we are to do everything in the love for God and if we do backslide and sin we are to confess it to the Lord to be forgiven and cleansed of it by His blood.

So you willfully ignore the truth when it's plainly set before you in scripture and turn from proper instruction? You stated David prayed to get his salvation restored. Then you act like it was a disagreement on whether on not David's prayers or songs are valid, you willfully attempt to deceive but you don't deceive us nor God who is watching you. Mark this day for you will give an account for it.

David fell back in sin and is repenting to the Lord to forgive him and restore His salvation on him.

You have been shown that you were wrong and now you show another color to your skin.You are an enemy of truth Kenneth whether you realize it or not and sadly and with a heavy heart i must leave you to your own ruin and destruction. For if you will not allow equity to enter in your heart through truth there is nothing i can do for you but pray and beseech you to repent and ask God to open your eyes and ears before it's to late for you.

 

[michael56]

Dying to the law Paul shows that when you walk in the Spirit you will not transgress the moral law, because love does no wrong. When you do wrong by sinning you have still placed yourself under the law. Not by living by the righteousness of the Spirit. You do realize there is a difference between the Mosaic law we are not under, and God's moral laws that still apply as God places them in our hearts and minds.

Apostle Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 5 that if anybody named a brother still lives by the flesh (sinful lifestyle) and does not give it up then you are to cast them out of the church and not even eat with them. Paul constantly stresses you can not live a sinful lifestyle and walk in the Spirit both, as they contradict each other.


Romans 13:9-11

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

''However if you call yourself a brother or sister in Christ and transgress His moral laws, then the bible says you will face judgment and the lake of fire.''

You wrote the above emboldened Kenneth. It is clear from that you must believe a Christian lives under a law of righteousness before God in respect of the Ten Commandments. I would say you are in the majority in Christendom sadly. And it is because of that belief roughly 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ walk away from the faith, for you leave the power of sin firmly in place by such a belief. I can confidently say, you do not understand the new covenant, you simply quote much of the literal letter without understanding the heart of the covenant the Christian is under.
Your basic belief is. ''Obey the ten commandments or you are condemned.'' No matter how you try and camouflage it

 

[kennethcadwell]

Then you are the only Christian on Earth Kenneth - congratulations

That is where you are wrong as I know a lot of churches that do not teach this OSAS philosophy as it is an early man made teaching of the church that has only been around for the past 100+ years or so.

I have given in the past quotes from the early church leaders that got their teaching directly from the original Apostles of Christ, and in those quotes they taught the opposite of OSAS. They taught just as Paul did that you must continue in or keep yourself in the faith to receive salvation.


Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.




Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, where unto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


Here is one from the Apostle Jude, one of Christ's main 12 Apostles;



Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[KJV1611]

I'm confused over this works salvation debate. What type of "works" is a believer supposed to be doing?

 

[kennethcadwell]

''However if you call yourself a brother or sister in Christ and transgress His moral laws, then the bible says you will face judgment and the lake of fire.''

You wrote the above emboldened Kenneth. It is clear from that you must believe a Christian lives under a law of righteousness before God in respect of the Ten Commandments. I would say you are in the majority in Christendom sadly. And it is because of that belief roughly 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ walk away from the faith, for you leave the power of sin firmly in place by such a belief. I can confidently say, you do not understand the new covenant, you simply quote much of the literal letter without understanding the heart of the covenant the Christian is under.
Your basic belief is. ''Obey the ten commandments or you are condemned.'' No matter how you try and camouflage it

There are still laws and standards that apply to Christians, this does not mean they have walked away from the faith.
Those who walk away from the faith are those who seek to be justified by the Mosaic laws, not those who follow the moral laws of God by love for Him.
There is a big difference between the Mosaic and Moral law, and until churches stop trying to blur that line and make them all one and the same then people will be lost in false teaching.
Apostle Paul like I showed says that by walk in love (fruit of the Spirit) it will uphold all commands given by the Lord our God, and even shows in Romans 13:9-11 I gave that even the 10 commandments are upheld. Paul constantly in his epistles show how the fruits of the Spirit uphold the moral law of God. I will never deny the truth in the bible that Paul teaches on this matter.

I quote from the NT teachings, which is not the letter of the law the bible speaks of.
Just because the letter of the Mosaic laws does not apply, does not mean there are not standards a believer still must keep. This is what I meant earlier about blurring the line into false teaching of making no standards valid. If no standards are valid then a believer can walk however they want, and still have salvation. That is completely against what scripture teaches.
I never said what you say because I do not use condemning words in my response, as I use soft under tones to point out how the bible says one is to walk in the faith. And let them know by God's grace that when they do mess up, they can confess that sin to receive remission for it through the Lord. The Lord will never abandoned us, but that is just one part of the equation as the bible says there will be those who abandoned Him. And for those who abandoned Him and do not repent will not receive eternal life.............

 

[michael56]

There are still laws and standards that apply to Christians, this does not mean they have walked away from the faith.
Those who walk away from the faith are those who seek to be justified by the Mosaic laws, not those who follow the moral laws of God by love for Him.
There is a big difference between the Mosaic and Moral law, and until churches stop trying to blur that line and make them all one and the same then people will be lost in false teaching.
........

That is crazy Kenneth. People do not walk away crushed because they have been asked to follow the Mosaic law. Your statements are becoming more-what can I say, erratic/fanciful all the time

 

[pem]

I'm confused over this works salvation debate. What type of "works" is a believer supposed to be doing?

The Works is the self- generated "faith" that Kenneth and other arminians have that makes them hate the free salvation in The Lord Jesus Christ thus denying OSAS

 

[kennethcadwell]

I'm confused over this works salvation debate. What type of "works" is a believer supposed to be doing?

I understand you being confused as this is what happens in works debates.
Because we do not do works of our own regard to earn salvation, but when we are born again there will be righteous works of Spirit that will be present in us. The fruits of the Spirit to walk in love, forgiveness, mercy, helping others in need, having self control, and many others that come from love.
Those fruits/works of the Spirit go hand and hand with faith unto salvation, and can not be canceled out because the Lord says we will know that are His by the fruits they produce. No fruit produced, not born again of the Spirit and therefore not His. Jesus tells us in Matthew 25 those who deny to help others deny Him, and are sent to eternal punishment.

Works done through the fruits of the Spirit do not earn, but go hand and hand with faith to show a true faith leading unto salvation through Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

well that scripture certainly refutes the belief that future sins are already forgiven....and also OSAS....for those who don't know the word...we have access to the throne of grace in time of need...those who confess and repent of their sins do not go before the throne of grace.....but believe all future sins are already forgiven...

come back from what??? scripture does not say you went anywhere...what scripture is saying is you cannot repent and be baptised as a new convert again as you have already used that sacrifice for the remission of sins that are past...it cannot be redone...but we have access to the throne of grace...if we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive...
Hebrews 4:15-16King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

You miss the reason I quoted it and why I said what I said......so....keep studying you might come to the knowledge of the truth......!

 

[dcontroversal]

Is that you brother Newbirth?

I have suspected for some time that it was Nobirth or some other banned ex-member....!

 

[kennethcadwell]

That is crazy Kenneth. People do not walk away crushed because they have been asked to follow the Mosaic law. Your statements are becoming more-what can I say, erratic/fanciful all the time

If people walk away from the faith because they can not learn through the Spirit to walk in love for Him, others, and even our enemies. Then they did not have the proper teaching and the Holy Spirit's guidance to begin with. Love does no wrong, so how can love transgress God ? It can't and it will not, which is why the scriptures say those who are in Christ can not sin because love is the opposite of sin.

The Works is the self- generated "faith" that Kenneth and other arminians have that makes them hate the free salvation in The Lord Jesus Christ thus denying OSAS

I do not teach a self generated faith, as I teach faith that comes by hearing the word as Paul says and by that faith will lead one to love, love leads to obedience, obedience leads to righteousness unto salvation. Every bit of this Paul says in Romans, and the bible does say knowledge comes from God through His Holy Spirit when we ask for it.
My knowledge is not self generated as it comes from the Holy Spirit's guidance through asking God in prayer to lead me through all His ways.
A false spirit would not guide a person to keep the scriptural teachings in the bible, for a false spirit would guide a person away from obeying the Lord. So I know the Holy Spirit is in me because He leads me to obedience to the Lord, and not disobedience.

Do you want me to go and get those posts to show you how the early church did not teach OSAS.................

 

[KJV1611]

I understand you being confused as this is what happens in works debates.
Because we do not do works of our own regard to earn salvation, but when we are born again there will be righteous works of Spirit that will be present in us. The fruits of the Spirit to walk in love, forgiveness, mercy, helping others in need, having self control, and many others that come from love.
Those fruits/works of the Spirit go hand and hand with faith unto salvation, and can not be canceled out because the Lord says we will know that are His by the fruits they produce. No fruit produced, not born again of the Spirit and therefore not His. Jesus tells us in Matthew 25 those who deny to help others deny Him, and are sent to eternal punishment.

Works done through the fruits of the Spirit do not earn, but go hand and hand with faith to show a true faith leading unto salvation through Christ.

Ok, I see where you're going wrong now. You're trying to make works one of the fruits of the spirit. The Lord will know us because we have love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance... not because we don't break the commandments.

 

[michael56]

If people walk away from the faith because they can not learn through the Spirit to walk in love for Him, others, and even our enemies. Then they did not have the proper teaching and the Holy Spirit's guidance to begin with. Love does no wrong, so how can love transgress God ? It can't and it will not, which is why the scriptures say those who are in Christ can not sin because love is the opposite of sin.







I do not teach a self generated faith, as I teach faith that comes by hearing the word as Paul says and by that faith will lead one to love, love leads to obedience, obedience leads to righteousness unto salvation. Every bit of this Paul says in Romans, and the bible does say knowledge comes from God through His Holy Spirit when we ask for it.
My knowledge is not self generated as it comes from the Holy Spirit's guidance through asking God in prayer to lead me through all His ways.
A false spirit would not guide a person to keep the scriptural teachings in the bible, for a false spirit would guide a person away from obeying the Lord. So I know the Holy Spirit is in me because He leads me to obedience to the Lord, and not disobedience.

Do you want me to go and get those posts to show you how the early church did not teach OSAS.................

The reason so many people walk away from the faith is because Christians reel off pat statements they cannot in their own lives live up to.

Is it living in love to demand of others what you fail to achieve in your own life and thereby crush them? No it isn't, you are falling to obey the second most important commandment by that route, and according to Paul that means the law of Christ cannot be fulfilled in your life.

I am grateful you have plainly laid out(in reality) your belief of a righteousness of obedience to the Ten Commandments. The Bible does not teach that. Please show me where Paul differentiated between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law in respect of a person not being under the law

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ok, I see where you're going wrong now. You're trying to make works one of the fruits of the spirit. The Lord will know us because we have love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance... not because we don't break the commandments.

That is not going wrong because the Apostle Paul shows in Romans 13:9 that walking in those fruits of the Spirit will not transgress those 10 commandments but uphold them instead. For instance how can one walk in love, and hate others ? You can't because they contradict, just like how can one say the love the Lord but deny to follow His teachings for salvation? Once again you can't as they contradict.........