SAVED BY WORKS

KJV1611 · Mar 19, 2015

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Some people hear the word of God and believe it in their minds and confess the Lord Jesus with their mouth, but it never gets into their heart... because their hearts are stoney ground. Then others hear the word of God and believe it in their minds, confess the Lord Jesus with their mouth and believe it in their hearts... then they're saved.

Some people have head faith and some have heart faith.

MarcR · Mar 20, 2015

KJV1611 said:

Believing with the heart is the SAME as what I called commitment. It goes beyond mental assent to full trust and reliance on the Word of God!

gotime · Mar 20, 2015

KJV1611 said:

The word heart is not what we in the 21st century would think.

It has to do with the thoughts of the mind.

It often has to do with the baser passions plus the thoughts, its self.

In fact Jesus also said:

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

notice the connection again with the words and the heart. In this next one Jesus is rebuking the elders for not keeping the commandments but rather their traditions.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So they confess Jesus with their mouth but their heart is far form Him. So simply having the words does not save there must be a heart conversion.

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Notice what comes out of the heart, evil thoughts, thoughts come from the mind the brain but we should be careful not to make this purely intellectual, while the intellectual is there it is affected by emotions, mood etc all that makes us who we are.

Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

So it is clear that the heart involves the self which includes the intellect. This is how faith comes:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For faith to come one must hear or read and the brain/intellect is most certainly involved in this process.

michael56 · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

That is a strange comment for you to make. ''We need to use the whole of scripture'' for you do not accept the very core of Paul's message. The Christian does indeed serve in the new way of the Spirit, but they do so on the understanding they have no righteousness of obedience to the law. You believe they do, you just removed the mosaic law. As I a Gentile was never under the mosaic law, I would have to wonder what Christ's death achieved for me if you were right.

Paul makes abundantly clear, the power of sin is the law. Where is the power of sin, in the mosaic law, or the moral law? For the answer to that, ask yourself which laws the Pharisees of Jesus day could perfectly obey, was it the mosaic law or the moral law?
Paul states sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. You believe in reality a person is under law in regard to the Ten Commandments/moral law. That leaves the power of sin firmly in place where those laws/moral laws are concerned.
I am afraid at best you put forth a weak and diluted message. It is a message that leaves many crushed. You cannot say the Christian is not under a righteousness of obedience to the law before God, and at the next minute say they must love almost perfectly so as to uphold the law nigh on perfectly so they may not sin and be condemned to hell.
The whole point of Paul stating a person is not under law but under grace, relates to the law concerning the inner man, for Paul could perfectly obey the legalistic law, he said he was faultless where that was concerned. Thou shalt not covet, was used by Paul concerning what happened to the inner man when that law came to him, it was in context a 'moral law'' and the consequences of Paul living under it.
Your message-if believed can only have two results. Either a person becomes crushed and walks away from the faith, or they put on an act before men, and pretend to be something they know in their heart they cannot attain to.

michael56 · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

The parable of the sower is great.

Let's look at the first example, then go on to the others if you wish?

Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: [SUP]19 [/SUP]When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart Matt 13:19

How could satan take out of a persons heart what had already been sown there?

Imagine a person believing Jesus died for their sins, they repent and ask Christ into their life as Lord and Saviour. They believe at that moment they stand before God spotless-completely cleansed of all their sin. What can satan do to rob them immediately of their new found life? He knows he cannot convince them Jesus did not die at Calvary, for they have firmly accepted he did. So satan does the next best thing from his point of view, convinces them Jesus only died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, and they can only remain standing before God completely innocent if they make sure they do not commit any sin. Any sin committed will result in their right standing before God being threatened, for then they cannot be spotless in God's sight. They then live under a righteousness of obedience to the law, which Paul tells us does not result in sin not being our master.
For the sincere, this has to mean they walk away crushed, for they will not put on an act before men, they are too honest for that.

michael56 · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

The simple truth of the new covenant is, the law God requires you to keep got transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts(2cor3:3) This means you in your heart want to live as God desires you to, you have been born again. Because, and only because that happened you are not under a righteousness before God of obedience to that law. This is what you cannot understand for you lean on your own understanding.

The power of sin is the law. What is it about the law that makes that to be true? Is it the law itself, or the penalty attached to the law if you break it? If the law itself is the power of sin, the power of sin remains for the Christian, for the law God desires you to keep remains intact within you. . If the power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it, Christ had to die for all your sins at calvary to break the power of sin in your life. What would be the result if Jesus did die for all your sins at Calvary?

The born again Christians heartfelt desire to obey can now come to fruition, for what opposes obedience(sin) was dealt a crushing blow by Christ's death removing its true power from the born again Christians life. Hence:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in Christ not obedience to the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31

The only way you will understand the truth is if you allow the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth, for only He can.

KJV1611 · Mar 20, 2015

gotime said:

The word heart is not what we in the 21st century would think.

It has to do with the thoughts of the mind.

It often has to do with the baser passions plus the thoughts, its self.

In fact Jesus also said:

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

notice the connection again with the words and the heart. In this next one Jesus is rebuking the elders for not keeping the commandments but rather their traditions.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So they confess Jesus with their mouth but their heart is far form Him. So simply having the words does not save there must be a heart conversion.

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Notice what comes out of the heart, evil thoughts, thoughts come from the mind the brain but we should be careful not to make this purely intellectual, while the intellectual is there it is affected by emotions, mood etc all that makes us who we are.

Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

So it is clear that the heart involves the self which includes the intellect. This is how faith comes:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For faith to come one must hear or read and the brain/intellect is most certainly involved in this process.

I think you agreed with me in all your statements. We hear the word of God and believe it in our mind (head knowledge), then the word takes root in our heart (heart knowledge).

mailmandan · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

The word "abide" means to remain, continue, stay, endure. Saving faith endures and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root, gets choked out and produces no fruit.

Which translation said that a couple of the groups in that parable "abide" in the faith for a little while? That is your man made interjection. To abide is to remain, continue, stay, endure. That is not temporary. In Luke 8:13, we read they "believe" for a while, and in time of testing they fall away. What kind of belief was this? Shallow temporary belief that had no root, lacked moisture and produced no fruit. That is not saving belief in Christ. Mark 4:6 says - And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away.

John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and set out to some the One they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples . . . said, This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

Actually the opposite is true. Those who like to point the finger at others and say, surely these other people lost their salvation, they just couldn't cut it, but it's a good thing that "I" pulled myself up by my bootstraps and kept myself saved.

Mature believers should absolutely help those who are weak in the faith become mature in the faith. If someone does not stay after making a profession of faith because they have a shallow temporary belief that has no root and produces no fruit, then we know why they fell away. Temporary shallow belief is not saving faith in Christ.

We should all care about others and leading them to faith in Christ and their spiritual growth afterwards, but we can't force people who have a shallow temporary belief that has no root and withers away to hear the word with an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Those who fall away and betray one another and hate one another give evidence that they are not truly saved (1 John 2:9,11). Those who endure to the end give evidence they are truly saved.

There are those who fall prey to false teachers and abandon the Christian faith. These are professing or nominal (in name only) Christians who fall away after believing lies and deception, thus revealing their true state as unconverted. *Notice in verse 3 - forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. The Roman Catholic church forbids their clergy to marry. This same church has demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, papal infallibility, indulgences, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..Roman Catholicism is a good example of falling away from the Christian faith. They have clearly perverted the gospel and teach salvation by works.

As I already explained to you before, the wanderer is either a professing Christian who is among the brethren, but whose faith is not genuine or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 John 5:16).

Jeff_56 · Mar 20, 2015

(nothing after 'imagine' in the post starting 'listen' was any right with scripture)

Jesus gave a direct example in the Gospel: some of the disciples THAT JESUS HAS SOWN TO THEIR HEART (along with peter, james and john and the other disciples with HIM)
told JESUS one day "your words are too hard, we cannot bear it any longer"
and
they walked away from JESUS...... ....... instead of staying with HIM and continuing TO DO WHAT HE SAID,
they LEFT HIM AND STOPPED DOING WHAT HE SAID.

the disciples who turned out to be GOOD SOIL STAYED WITH HIM and CONTINUED TO DO ALL HE SAYS.

every one of JESUS DISCIPLES IN SCRIPTURE , walking with HIM and teaching others what HE TAUGHT THEM, every one of them kept the sabbath and served the one true God and never never never touched pork. any others are either deceived or simply are not good soil

and cannot bear TO DO WHAT HE SAID (today)
and they LEFT JESUS (today's so-called 'disciples' who are bad soil) and STOPPED DOING WHAT HE SAYS.

michael56 said:

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

no, this is your faulty reasoning.

if christ is in you, they body is dead BECAUSE OF SIN. if their is no sin in your life, and you are followiing the law. the body would not be dead. the reason the body is dead is because their is still sin.

I can fall away from belief, I can not fall away from faith. You can not comprehend this only because you have never had faith, your faith has always been in what you do or dont do. not what Christ did.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

When the bible speaks of law and salvation, it does not speak of the 613 laws. it speaks of moral laws.

When james said if you break even the least of the commands, you guilty of the whole law. He spoke of Gods moral laws. What paul spoke of the law in galations, he spoke of the law written in stone (the ten commandments, and other laws given at that time) Not the 613 laws given much later.

When are you going to stop excusing your sin? and start interpreting the word of God with an open mind, and not a closed heart?

dcontroversal · Mar 20, 2015

MarcR said:

I agree and have said that the heart as represented here is the mind and or seat of intellect...all conscience decisions take place in the mind...when one decides to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and savior is it a conscience decision to accept what he has done and apply it to your life in faith and assurance....

Faith is the ground or confidence of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.......

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

I walk in the way my work tells me I do thing, It does not mean I have faith in the way they do things, It just means I do what they say, because I am following them. Most of the times, I do what I really trust to do. and the work I trust, even if it is not the way they want it.

why? Because I have done this for over 25 years, and I always return to what I trust. Because that is where my true faith lies.

Walking in something, and having pure faith in something is not the same.

Faith is what saves, Not mere belief or acknowledgement.

One who has true faith will never leave.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

No I am not confused because you are taking that one passage there and trying to make it do away with all the rest that the Apostle Paul said. He is saying in the passage you give the law showed him his sinful ways and need for a savior, and the reason the commandment that was to bring forth life brought forth death instead because man alone is weak in the flesh and the punishment in the Mosaic laws was to put those to death who break them.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The law could not make people be perfect because we alone our weak because of fleshly lusts. However Christ is our strength and with Him He strengthens us were we are weak. Therefore by us abiding in Christ and Christ abiding in us we walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh. The Spirit establishes in our lives and upholds the law that the flesh can not do;

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

so again, Do you love 100 % of the time, 24/7?

If you say yes, you are decieved,

if you say no. You agree with us that you are condemned by the law

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code

We need to use the whole scripture and not just highlight the part you want to go by, so notice how it says in the part I put in read serve in the Spirit. If you are still living a sinful lifestyle you are living by the written code and not by the Spirit. For the Spirit can not lead a person to sin, Christ can not deny Himself or His own moral laws.

I already explained verse 9 as the reason why death came through the commandment was because in the written form of ordinances breaking any one of the 10 commandments was punishable by physical death. We do not have to fear those punishments as we are not under the Mosaic laws, we are under God's grace and His moral laws placed in us through His Holy Spirit. How many times does the bible have to show and state walking in love does no wrong, upholds the commandments, and proves one's faith to be genuine to get people to understand a true faith hangs on love???

Non of this proves you fuflill the law

This tells you HOW NOT TO LIVE IN SIN, it does not tell you you have made it to the point YOU NO LONGER SIN.

The law has no hold over you because it can not condemn you. But ONLY IF YOU HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED (declared in right standing before God) BY FAITH IN CHRIST.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

No. The power of the law is done away with (the condemnation of breaking them)

this includes the moral law. Do you not even read scripture?

Gal 3
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[SUP][[/SUP]

Deut 27:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’

“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

this includes the ten commands, because the ten commands were given that same day. and included in the law.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

gotime said:

thats fine when it comes to individual sins.

but repent also means to change ones mind. one who has not understood that the law condemns us, because we all fall short of the glory of God (the perfect law) and turns to Christ as the only means to salvation. He is still walking in opposition to God. and still dead in his sin, because he has failed to "turn around" and repent.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

No your faith is in yourself.

If you had faith in Jesus, You would trust jesus no matter what to keep his promise in unconditional love (which is what Grace is)

but you do not do this, Your faith is that you do not fall away, You continue to walk, You do certain religious works. And you..... (insert all the rest of the works you trust in)

Thus again, your faith is in your ability to walk the straight and narrow (as bound by your own set of rules) and not on the grace of God (because you fail to admit you can not live up to his standard required for salvation, which is perfection)

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Yet your faith is in yourself. And not in Jesus, you prove this with every post you make.

Jeff_56 · Mar 20, 2015

is Israel, in God's People, the Jews, the Hebrews, the FAITH JESUS IMPARTS is in YAHWEH,
through YAHSHUA,
and all of Yahweh's People expect completely TO OBEY YAHWEH fully every day without any compromise.

in america, and in this forum, perverts think they can have some kind of faith that doesn't obey Yahweh.

their faith will not help them today, or any day. Yahweh will cast them in the lake of fire on the appropriate day, unless they truly repent and turn to Him to live the way He says to.

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