Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

garee · Oct 21, 2016

God’s word is not limited to the corrupted flesh of men.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

But rather in respect to an inward Jew, the Israel of God after the spiritual seed (one) of Christ. Not the Israel of men, after the fleshly seeds (many).

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:But he is a Jew, which is "one inwardly"; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28

If any man of any nation have not the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of God then neither do they belong to Him.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The old testament saints that make up the chaste virgin bride of Christ the church worshiped God by faith and not by sight just as us today. They searched the scriptures looking ahead, we look back to the same demonstration.

1Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

God puts no difference between a Jew and a Gentile purifying both by a work of His faith.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:8

The 144,000 Jews as Christians, the new name God named His born again people.It is a unknown number no man could count. Christ uses the word thousand that way all through the scriptures. She is made of all the saints who are called heavenward as the one chaste virgin bride of Christ the church as those elected to salvation. As many as the Father has given to the Son will come.

bluto · Oct 21, 2016

popeye said:

Ok popeye, I have a couple of "pesty" questions for you. Regarding the 10 virgins why was there extra oil available to all ten of them? Or to put it another way, what was the purpose of having extra oil? Also in Matthew 25 Jesus expands the parable to some men who were give talents. One man had five, another had two and the last man had only one talent. This starts at Matthew 25:14-30 and the lesson is rather obvious but I do want you to notice something Jesus said at Matthew 25:31 through the end of the chapter.

At vs31 Jesus is sitting on His throne and at vs32 it says, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him and He will separate the sheep from the goats etc. How do these two parables demonstrate or prove to you (especially the 10 virgins parable that you keep mentioning) when the rapture of the church will happen, will it be before or after the GT, how do you know?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Quasar92 · Oct 21, 2016

PlainWord said:

This is the second time I have posted Dan.9:27, after you made the same remark as above, previously. Why do you keep trying to make the Scriptures fit your false belief system"

[SUP]Dan.27 "[/SUP]He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[SUP][a][/SUP] In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP][b][/SUP] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[SUP]"

You have a very short term memory!

Quasar92
[/SUP]

PlainWord · Oct 21, 2016

popeye said:

What pesky verse? This one?

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads...These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb..

You know, Mount Zion is found just twice in the NT; Rev 14:1 above and here in Heb 12 below:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, [SUP]23 [/SUP]to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, [SUP]24 [/SUP]to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

So, where is the Mount Zion in the above? What spirits of just men? Who are they?

What does it mean to be redeemed? Is it the same as being raptured? Are you redeemed right now, am I? Are those in heaven redeemed? If you are among the firstfruits to be redeemed, when were you redeemed relative to others, before them or after the others?

Where is the Lamb right now, at this very moment? Is Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven or not?

These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Where is the throne of God and is Christ there too, right now? Are there any believers with Him right now who have been redeemed or is nobody redeemed until the rapture?

PlainWord · Oct 21, 2016

Quasar92 said:

No, you are using a faulty Bible translation. The original text does not say this. Which translation are you using? Use the purest translation, the KJV.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Your version has an "abomination" (singular) being set up at the temple causing the temple to be desolate. The word, "temple" does not exist, I checked the original Hebrew.

The KJV has "overspreading of abominations" (meaning many abominations or sins). These are completely different meanings.

So, which translation is more accurate? But that isn't even the point. Christ invokes Daniel.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...

Of course in the NT we have Greek and there are two Greek words used by Jesus:

946 bdelugma; a destestation, i.e. spec idolatry - Abomination
2050 eremosis; - desolation

You go do Dan 9 which gives few details. Let's assume for sake of discussion that you are correct in your view of a gap theory between 69-70 why do you ignore Dan 11 which actually contains the exact same phrasing?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Here we use the Hebrew:

8251 shiqquts; from disgusting, i.e filthy; espec. idolatrous or an idol; - Abominable filth, destestable.

8074 shamem; make desolate, be destitute, destroy, make waste

These meanings are a perfect match. You cannot deny the validity of going to Dan 11:31 which is where you find the fortress or strength of the sanctuary which is/was the wall that protected the Temple. The temple is gone but the wing or edge of the wall, a small piece of the western wall remains and it is here where the Jews pray. It is here that we first see a defiling and ending of prayers then 1,290 days later, the Abomination of Desolation set up.

masmpg · Oct 21, 2016

popeye said:

Please supply bible proof. Your out of context bible verses are not biblical.

masmpg · Oct 21, 2016

PlainWord said:

No, you are using a faulty Bible translation. The original text does not say this. Which translation are you using? Use the purest translation, the KJV.

PlainWord, All we can do is share the knowledge God has revealed to us and leave it at that. The ONLY one who can convince anybody is the Holy Spirit, who is only given to those that Obey God. Far too many who profess the Name of Jesus believe and teach that obedience is not necessary for salvation, but the whole new testament is full of action. Things we must do and not do in order to be saved. Things we are not to boast about, but obedience and works are the fruit of grace not a way to be worthy of it.

YES the KJV is the ONLY bible. ALL the others are satanic counterfeits. To argue between translations is of no use. Those who are deceived by a translation that needs to be constantly updated, and believe the lie that it is more accurate must wake up some how. To believe a translation that has, so far, deleted 17 verses from the new testament, and has been "updated 3 times since the first writing, and argue that it is blessed of God is evidence of preconceived ideas, or just plain stubbornness because they have been using the translation for so long. Its just like a denomination where people will argue denominational tradition over the bible just because their family has been in that denomination for generations. As Christians we must use the word of God for our mentor. To try to change God's word to fit a denomination will cause the loss of a soul. If the denomination does not follow the bible, and the Holy Spirit shows that to us we must leave that denomination.

PlainWord · Oct 21, 2016

[SUP][/SUP][SUP]TO SEE ORDER OF EVENTS, WE HAVE TO STUDY THESE TWO PASSAGES FROM DANIEL BECAUSE CHRIST INVOKES THEM.[/SUP][SUP]

31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

AND THIS.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

So we see two events, the daily prayers being taken away then 1,290 days later, the Abomination of desolation being set up. Once the A o f D is set up, then we have the GREAT TRIBULATION of Israel.

CS1 · Oct 21, 2016

popeye said:

that is a very interesting point you make I agree the Coming of the lord is not a very bad thing amen. The issue is UNITY of the saints in my humble opinion no matter where you stand on the Doctrine of the rapture the normative is the understanding of all the "Soon return of the Lord"

and we preparing our selves for HIS return.

Quasar92 · Oct 21, 2016

PlainWord said:

No, you are using a faulty Bible translation. The original text does not say this. Which translation are you using? Use the purest translation, the KJV.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Your version has an "abomination" (singular) being set up at the temple causing the temple to be desolate. The word, "temple" does not exist, I checked the original Hebrew.

The KJV has "overspreading of abominations" (meaning many abominations or sins). These are completely different meanings.

So, which translation is more accurate? But that isn't even the point. Christ invokes Daniel.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...

Of course in the NT we have Greek and there are two Greek words used by Jesus:

946 bdelugma; a destestation, i.e. spec idolatry - Abomination
2050 eremosis; - desolation

You go do Dan 9 which gives few details. Let's assume for sake of discussion that you are correct in your view of a gap theory between 69-70 why do you ignore Dan 11 which actually contains the exact same phrasing?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Here we use the Hebrew:

8251 shiqquts; from disgusting, i.e filthy; espec. idolatrous or an idol; - Abominable filth, destestable.

8074 shamem; make desolate, be destitute, destroy, make waste

These meanings are a perfect match. You cannot deny the validity of going to Dan 11:31 which is where you find the fortress or strength of the sanctuary which is/was the wall that protected the Temple. The temple is gone but the wing or edge of the wall, a small piece of the western wall remains and it is here where the Jews pray. It is here that we first see a defiling and ending of prayers then 1,290 days later, the Abomination of Desolation set up.

The AoD in Dan.9:27 is the very same one Jesus alluded to in Mt.24:15 as well as in the Mk.13:14 counterpart! Which is the image of the beast out of the sea/Antichrist, built by the beast out of the earth/False Prophet, that can speak, recorded in Rev.13:14.. Don't try arguing your guesswork with me! You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about!

Quasa92

PlainWord · Oct 22, 2016

Quasar92 said:

So you deny that the Abomination of Desolation in Dan 11-12 is also the same one Christ talked about in Mat 24, Mark 13 and Dan 9:27???? If so, which A of D is this one>?

tanakh · Oct 22, 2016

The Pre Trib Rapture Doctrine is a major part of a eschatological position known as Futurist Dispensationalism. It was first promoted by John Darby and Cyrus Scofield in the Nineteenth Century.

A major flaw in the teaching is that if correct it renders most of the book of Revelation irrelevant to Christians who lived during most of the church age, and one wonders why God would have it included in the Bible at all. The whole idea is very dependent on world news events and books supporting the teaching have to be revised every time something is ''predicted'' and fails to materialize. Some of these predictions have been debated to death on this site.

PlainWord · Oct 22, 2016

We have to conclude that Pre-tribbers are false prophets just like the ones in Eze 13. They preach PEACE and SAFETY through a "rapture fly-away trip to heaven" from the troubles the Bible teaches come to His Saints at the hands of the Devil in the latter days. In Eze 13, false prophets were telling the Children of Israel that they would have peace and safety and protection from Babylon who was threatening. But God had not spoken.

Today, ISLAM is on the rise threatening Jews, Christians and anyone else who will not convert to ISLAM. ISLAM wants to take over the world and kill anyone who will not become ISLAMIC. This message is found in Rev 13. Pre-tribbers ignore this threat and instead tells lies and have false visions of a fly away. Such views are insidious. These views lull the church to sleep on the real threats ISLAM poses to us and the world.

Further, the Pre-Trib lie has rendered much of the Church silent not willing to speak out against the rising evil in the world. The reason for this is because they are more focused on being flown away then they are preparing their hearts, minds and souls to withstand the devil and his lies regarding ISLAM. ISLAM is the religion of the end times which the world will come to follow. I speak out about this every day. They are the ones who behead. They are the ones with roots back to Babylon as they are the Children of Babylon.

I really hate to criticize a whole group of Christians but their teachings are putting us all in a bad light.

Quasar92 · Oct 22, 2016

PlainWord said:

First of all, show me where I alluded to Dan.11 at all. Then show me where I provided any interpretation of it. That's how pointless and abrasive your above post is.

Now listen up: Dan.11:1through 35 pertains the fulfilled OT prophecy of both Persian and Greek kings. Among whom was Antiocus Epiphanes IV, who set up an AoD of a sow on the Israel temple alter. Which has nothing whatever to do with the future AoD, recorded in Dan.9:27, Mt.24:15 and Mk.13:14. That will be set up by the king referred to in Dan.11:36-45, yet to take place!

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Oct 22, 2016

Look in the mirror, PlainWord, for the epitome of false prophets! After you have been presented with the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, on this and other threads here, you still impose your denial of their teachings, making liars of them all! Either prove any of the following to be false, or your views are!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

Scripturalproof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

A Scriptural chronological step by step order of end times events:

The chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

Quasar92

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PlainWord · Oct 22, 2016

Quasar92 said:

There is not a single passage that teaches of any return prior to the final massive attack upon Israel (AKA Great Trib)

There is not a single passage that includes two separate returns of Christ.

There is not a single passage that tells of a group being snatched off the planet and whisked away to heaven before the GT.

There is not a single passage that distinguishes between a saint and a so-called "Tribulation Saint."

What you teach is an abomination to the Word. All you do is cite verse after verse then tell me they say something they don't. You are the very definition of a False Prophet and I will call you out every time and wherever I find you telling lies. Fortunately you cannot deceive me because I am grounded in the Word. I worry about the effect you may be having on others.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Because you have spoken nonsense and envisioned lies, therefore I am indeed against you,” says the Lord God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]“My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies...[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Because, indeed, they have seduced My people, saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace,’” says the Lord God.

Quasar92 · Oct 22, 2016

Quasar92 said:

The bottom link in the above post was faulty. It is posted again, below, and should work properly this time:

The chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

Quasar92

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Quasar92 · Oct 22, 2016

tanakh said:

I haven't seen a more negative post in a long time, tanakh. The book of Revelation is literally the Revelation of Jesus Christ, He gave to the apostle John. It reveals the Church Jesus saves from the wrath of God, from 1 Thess.1:10, recorded in Rev.4:1-2, where John symbolizes the Church being called up to heaven before the tribulation begins, as Recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Where the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus will take place, according to Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. The second coming of Christ to the earth, with His Church, from heaven. His fight with His armies from heaven against the two beasts,i.e. the Antichrist the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations allied with them, in the battle of Armageddon, the forces of evil. Throwing the two beasts in the lake of fire and destroying the armies of the ten nations allied to them, ending the seven year tribulation, recorded in Rev.19:11-21.

Throwing Satan into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years Jesus will reign in the restored kingdom of Israel on the throne of David, with His Church and all the tribulation martyrs/saints from the first resurrection, including the entire remnant of Israel, as recorded, in Jn.10:16, Rom.11:26; Acts 1:6; 15:16; Zech.12:10; Rev.19:14; 20:1-3; 11-21 and 20:4-6.

From Satan being thrown into the lake of fire, the end of Jesus 1,ooo year reign through the Great White Throne Judgment to the end of this age, and of the present heaven and earth, as recorded in Rev.20:7-10 and 11-15. From where God provides all of us who belong to Him, with a new eternal heaven and earth with glorious description throughout the ending two chapers of 21 and 22.

To me, at least, that is a true positive and glorious future for all believers.

Quasar92

Ahwatukee · Oct 22, 2016

Hello tanakh,

The answer is, so that those who belong to God and who study the book of Revelation and end-time events, could teach other believers and also warn non believers of the coming wrath, which is what a large majority of the book is about. Regarding your question, consider the following:

For Believers:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

"Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

For unbelievers:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."

The book of Revelation deals with letters to the churches of that time and which are also to be applied to every individual believer throughout the entire church period. Revelation 4 onward, which is the "what must take place later" I.e. after the church period, is a detailed account of the wrath of God, which takes place in the last generation leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

"this generation" would have to be referring to the one where the signs take place and not Jesus' generation, as some force it to be. According to how a generation is used, it can't be any more than a hundred years in length, and it is within that last generation where all those signs take place that Jesus listed. And we know that it has to do with that last seven years spoken of in Dan.9:27, because Jesus makes reference to the abomination being set up, which marks the middle of that last seven years, with Jesus returning to end the age 3 1/2 years later.

Whenever the Lord gives me opportunity, I personally will use the scripture regarding the mark of the beast and relate it to the fact that we already have that technology, as people are already being Implanted with RFID chips under the skin of the hand. In relation to that, I also make known that we already have the electronic crediting and debiting system in place, which people use every day to credit and debit their bank accounts. Eventually, whatever that sub-dermal device evolves into, during the time of the beast, it will replace card swiping and bank phone apps. and whatever else the world is using to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts.

My point being that, the information in the book of Revelation is a good teaching tool towards both believer and unbeliever. The fact that we even have the technology for implanting a device under the skin of the hand, in light of Rev.13:16, is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God's word. It's something tangible that people can see. unfortunately, they find a way to discredit this as they do with the rest of God's word.

Regarding the above, this is exactly why expositors should not be setting dates at all, but only pointing out that we are very near and that his appearing is imminent. Unfortunately, they will continue to predict and set dates and fail. I'm sure that this was devised by Satan in order to discredit the fact that we are living in the last days leading up to that final seven years. Unfortunately, we have those who have not adhered to the words of Jesus when he said, even regarding his return to the earth to end the age:

"But concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of the heavens, nor the Son, except the Father only.

Since the above was referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end that age with all of those signs, how much more unknowable is it for when he appears to gather the church where there are no signs? It is an event that is always imminent and should not be dated. For it will happen when it happens. As believers, we should only be proclaiming that the appearing of the Lord to gather his church is very close and that because we can see the stage beings set for the time of that coming antichrist. Immanency is as far as we should go with it, as date setting is doomed to fail. All these other date setters are just making a mockery of it and discrediting it.

GaryA · Oct 22, 2016

tanakh said:

Indeed! The book of Revelation is not about a future 7-year span of time -- it is about a span of time that includes the past ~2000 years - the present - and into the future --- from some point in time after the resurrection of Christ until His return ( Second Coming of Christ ). This is also the prophetic timeline of the Olivet Discourse. It makes reference to things that occur throughout this [ same ] span of time.

Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

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