Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[PlainWord]

Guys,

Let the Pre-Tribbers have their 2,000 year gap then their final 7 or 3.5 years. It means the world to them. Even though there is no Abomination of Desolation found in Dan 9, they need it to be there for their gap theory. Meanwhile, the real Abomination of Desolation is hiding out in plain sight in Dan 11 & 12, but they don't even want to look at those passages because the resurrection is at the start of Dan 12, after the A of D and after the Man of Sin.

It's the same order Jesus has it and the same order Paul teaches.

Defiling of Sanctuary Fortress (end of prayers)
1,290 days later - Abomination of Desolation Set up
Great Tribulation of Israel
Man of Sin
45 days later God's Wrath and return of Christ

Once they see the FORTRESS of the sanctuary defiled and the prayers at the wailing wall stop, they will come around. It's almost the same time frame, 1,335 days or 3.66 years. There are going to start running around as their knowledge suddenly increases. But they will be scoffed at because they cried "wolf" far too many times.

 

[Bookends]

Gap -->Daniel 9:26

"Times of Gentiles" Luke 21:24

There is no gap in Daniel 9:26, it flow like normal, after 69th week the 70th starts. There is no mention of a gap, and neither is there on mentioned in Luke 21:24.

 

[Bookends]

Those who are left behind at the time the Church is caught uo to Jesus are non-believers, or they too, would be raptured with the believing Church. The 144,000 Israelite evangelists will bring them to the Lord as recorded in Rev.7:1-17 They realize after they have been left behind, what they had heard about Jesus, that they did not pay any attention to, before the rapture, was true. When they finally received Jesus as their Lord, it was too late, and they will pay with their lives for it, as described in Rev.20:4


Quasar02.

This is Bull, Revelation says the 144,000 are Jewish converts and that they are the first fruits. FIRST FRUITS, nod mid or last fruits, the first fruits are the Jewish believers in the 1st century. Let the bible Identify these people, not your eschatological system.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It does come down to interpretation in the end and there is arguments for both sides, but when i research the history and the making of the pre-trib theory and the number of assumptions that need to be made for it to work i'm convinced it is wrong.
If God wanted us to believe in a pre-trib theory it would have been written clearly in His word.
It is clear that Jesus will come and gather His saints in person and every eye will see him.

This is not a presumption..

1. every eye shall see him when He comes. It hard to not see lightning.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2. The saved that are dead and those that are alive will meet the Lord in the air when He comes.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


3. He shall be seen with power and great glory when He comes, and gather the elect together.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

4. When Jesus comes the wicked will want to die. Want to hide from the face of Jesus.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

This isn't an assumption, it is how God described Jesus's coming and it is clear that the whole Earth will see Jesus and that it isn't going to be a secret.

You can twist scripture and presume that it means something else but be honest and ask yourself is their solid evidence when you take the presumption away.

1. I do not "presume" anything, That is faulty logic that you are right, And I am presuming, The same argument could be said of you.
2. You did not prove your point. All men on earth seeing his return, Does not mean 7 years earlier that many were "caught up" to see the lord. Even if that happens, All men on earth will see his return.
3. As I said , there is far to many problems for it to be post trib. In fact, from what I read, that is still the least believable theory (they are all just theories by the way) The most difficult thing post tribbers have to explain away, is that they believe in a 1000 year reign (other wise they would be Amill, not post trib) yet they have no one who "endured to the end to be saved" for all believers are raptured,leaving no life (human) alive left on earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL, you don't follow your own rules of literal interpretation. So it's not allegorical to insert a 2000+ year gap between the 69th and 70th week, in which such a gap is mentioned NO where in scripture. One needs to be inserted to fit your eschatological system, take it out and your system falls apart.

Allegory? What allegory? There is no allegory. Come on my friend, you should know better than to say things like this.

1. Messiah is cut off.
2. 40 years later, the city and temple is destroyed.
3. It is left in for a time in which war desolations, which are predetermined by god
4. THEN, a one week covenant is made.


One does not have to FIT anything into anything, IT IS THERE. whether you can see it or not is not my issue (in fact. Like your buddy TMS, The same could be said as yours, You have to ignore the time period as seen in Daniel 9 between the cutting off of messiah and the covenant. in order to fit your interpretation)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Times of the gentiles...

The time of the gentile would be from Babylon to the final form of Rome.. It is still today the time of the gentile.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no gap in Daniel 9:26, it flow like normal, after 69th week the 70th starts. There is no mention of a gap, and neither is there on mentioned in Luke 21:24.

Oh boy.

Normal flow?

The city was destroyed by the people of the prince who is to come 40 years after the messiah is cut off. Nothing normal about it, You already inserted a GAP.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There is no gap in Daniel 9:26, it flow like normal, after 69th week the 70th starts. There is no mention of a gap, and neither is there on mentioned in Luke 21:24.

Do you actually believe that God is going to give an explanation after every prophecy? It is by cross-referencing and comparing scripture that we come to our conclusions. God is not going provide prophecy like Dan.9:27 and explain every characteristic of it. We have to dig in to find out the details.

Regarding Dan.9:27, God gives us the information and by taking into consideration all the related scriptures, we are then able to come to a conclusion. It is the same way with the timing of the gathering of the church. By cross-referencing and comparing related scriptures, we are then able to come to a conclusion. Is the following what you expect God to put in his word:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP]i[/SUP] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. And regarding the seventy 'sevens' there is a gap of time between the sixty-ninth 'seven' and the seventieth 'seven." And I am going to fulfill the last seven year period in the far future. The Lord your God just wanted all of you reading this in the future to know this so that there wouldn't be and confusion as to the timing of this event."

Really?! There isn't a gap explained in Isaiah 61:1-2, yet there has to be a gap and that because the part that Jesus left off on and didn't read hadn't happened and still hasn't happened.

It is a simple process: Whatever is written in the word of God must at some point be fulfilled. Therefore, any prophecy that hasn't taken place, it then must have a future fulfillment. That said, Dan.9:27 has has not been fulfilled and therefore must take place at a future time.

 

[Bookends]

1. I do not "presume" anything, That is faulty logic that you are right, And I am presuming, The same argument could be said of you.
2. You did not prove your point. All men on earth seeing his return, Does not mean 7 years earlier that many were "caught up" to see the lord. Even if that happens, All men on earth will see his return.
3. As I said , there is far to many problems for it to be post trib. In fact, from what I read, that is still the least believable theory (they are all just theories by the way) The most difficult thing post tribbers have to explain away, is that they believe in a 1000 year reign (other wise they would be Amill, not post trib) yet they have no one who "endured to the end to be saved" for all believers are raptured,leaving no life (human) alive left on earth.

I believe you fail to realize any other possible explanation for "endured to the end to be saved". Jesus wasn't talking about the end of the world, follow the context, but the end of the Jewish nation and culture, to this end, I believe, He was speaking of.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe you fail to realize any other possible explanation for "endured to the end to be saved". Jesus wasn't talking about the end of the world, follow the context, but the end of the Jewish nation and culture, to this end, I believe, He was speaking of.

Your claim above would not fly and that because "the end" is specified as Christ physically returning to the earth to end the age. During that last seven years, God is going to be dealing with Israel as well as with every tribe, nation, people and language. This is the whole meaning behind Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statute, which represents all human government, which he is going to dismantle during that last seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe you fail to realize any other possible explanation for "endured to the end to be saved". Jesus wasn't talking about the end of the world, follow the context, but the end of the Jewish nation and culture, to this end, I believe, He was speaking of.

I guess I could,

but if I am honest with myself. I can't,

I would have to throw out alot of OT prophecy concerning the complete removal of the jewish nation from it land (until 70 AD, this had never occurred, even during babylonian control. Many jews remained in the land, They were just ruled by puppet kings set up by their captives.) and then return them to the land, and during the time of Jacobs trouble (jer 30) bring them back to the land after they repent, and punish the gentile nations.

I believe he was talking af whoever is on the earth at the time, and he is not talking about spiritual life (salvation) but physical life. Will be saved, and enter the kingdom years with him (imagine witnessing those things.. That would be worth enduringn to th eend, And it would give all those people hope) which is why I think Jesus told them through his word

 

[Bookends]

Oh boy.

Normal flow?

The city was destroyed by the people of the prince who is to come 40 years after the messiah is cut off. Nothing normal about it, You already inserted a GAP.

No I didn't. Jesus made the decree to destroy the city within the 70th week, the actual destruction does not have to fit into the 70th week, it's merely an after effect.

EG, Daniel makes it very clear in verse 24. There are 70 prophetic weeks all these things to be fulfilled (no gap), 1. to finish the transgression, 2. to make an end of sins, 3. to make reconciliation of inquity, 4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. TO SEAL UP VISION and PROPHECY 6. to anoint the MOST HOLLY. What follows after verse 24 is just more of a detailed explanation or breakdown. The apostle Paul and Jesus had confirmed all these things have been fulfilled, therefore, I am forced to trust their word and interpret scripture accordingly (even if I don't completely understand what was written).

 

[Bookends]

I guess I could,

but if I am honest with myself. I can't,

I would have to throw out alot of OT prophecy concerning the complete removal of the jewish nation from it land (until 70 AD, this had never occurred, even during babylonian control. Many jews remained in the land, They were just ruled by puppet kings set up by their captives.) and then return them to the land, and during the time of Jacobs trouble (jer 30) bring them back to the land after they repent, and punish the gentile nations.

I believe he was talking af whoever is on the earth at the time, and he is not talking about spiritual life (salvation) but physical life. Will be saved, and enter the kingdom years with him (imagine witnessing those things.. That would be worth enduringn to th eend, And it would give all those people hope) which is why I think Jesus told them through his word

Jay Adams does a much better job at explaining and breaking down the whole book of Daniel, Jacobs trouble was in the time frame of the 490 years. I honestly will pray that you take the time to listen to him. Although I don't agree with his predestination stance, his teaching on Daniel is excellent. You can find them here:Dr. Jay E. Adams Sermons | SermonAudio.com


PS> Nice seeing, I love you man.

 

[garee]

Actually there is much more scriptural support for Pre-Trib than for mid or post trib, And unless we make an allegorical interpretation of scripture. there is no scriptural support for Ammilenialism. or post millennialism. (so for these two we have a The the same must apply to those whose do not have a Amof how we interpret prophesy) so they can not declare anyone apposed to them wrong, who interpret prophesy different.

PS, I am not Pre-Trib, I am not decided, I feel like someo have more proof than others. but we will not know until it happens.

I think it is always about a hermeneutical issue having to do with parables since without parables Christ, the Holy Spirit of God spoke not. We can see that by the hermeneutical law found below.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, "but" at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


That power or authority to believe God is not of us (Jew or Gentile)even though we do have Christ in us .This is knowing if any man has not the Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to Him

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of "the power may be of God, and not of us".

1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Because the kingdom of God is not here on earth and never was we walk or understand God by faith(the unseen) . Not after our religious experiences as that seen.

This is where the unconverted Jew failed not understanding they were being used as a pattern as types or shadows pointing to the unseen in respect to a hermeneutical laws used as pattern or parable, which are designed to hide the spiritual understanding from the lost while revealing it to His children who walk or understand by a work of His faith working us .

Like the parable below. Abraham received it as a parable and not as if the kingdom of God was of this world and he received it as an outward experience, as if the kingdom of God was of here.

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Heb 11:17


Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

By the things made not in respect to the things made. Again as if the kingdom of God was of this world

1Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable "spake he not unto them:"

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

 

[garee]

I believe you fail to realize any other possible explanation for "endured to the end to be saved". Jesus wasn't talking about the end of the world, follow the context, but the end of the Jewish nation and culture, to this end, I believe, He was speaking of.

I would say the end is when a person dies. Whether it is before He comes on the last day or on that day .

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it is always about a hermeneutical issue having to do with parables since without parables Christ, the Holy Spirit of God spoke not. We can see that by the hermeneutical law found below.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, "but" at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


That power or authority to believe God is not of us (Jew or Gentile)even though we do have Christ in us .This is knowing if any man has not the Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to Him

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of "the power may be of God, and not of us".

1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

Because the kingdom of God is not here on earth and never was we walk or understand God by faith(the unseen) . Not after our religious experiences as that seen.

This is where the unconverted Jew failed not understanding they were being used as a pattern as types or shadows pointing to the unseen in respect to a hermeneutical laws used as pattern or parable, which are designed to hide the spiritual understanding from the lost while revealing it to His children who walk or understand by a work of His faith working us .

Like the parable below. Abraham received it as a parable and not as if the kingdom of God was of this world and he received it as an outward experience, as if the kingdom of God was of here.

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Heb 11:17


Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

By the things made not in respect to the things made. Again as if the kingdom of God was of this world

1Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable "spake he not unto them:"

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

I agree in part. This is not about salvation. Or about Jew vs Gentile. For we are all one in Christ. And even to Abraham, that was the most important part.

But we also can not ignore the many prophesies concerning messiah which he did not fulfill yet. The many prophecies which said these things will happen here on earth, and they have not yet happened yet.

If Gods prophecies are null and void. Or spiritualized away, then can he really foretell the future, Can he really say, This will happen in the future, and it happen,, Or does he need us to try to interpret it for him, because he really did not know what he was saying (which is the most important aspect of hermeneutics concerning prophecy) God uses prophecy for one reason. To prove he is the one true God. No other God can for tell future events, exactly as they happen. Only God can. I do not think he wants us allegorizing his prophetic word to make it fit as like it came true. When it has not..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No I didn't. Jesus made the decree to destroy the city within the 70th week, the actual destruction does not have to fit into the 70th week, it's merely an after effect.

EG, Daniel makes it very clear in verse 24. There are 70 prophetic weeks all these things to be fulfilled (no gap), 1. to finish the transgression, 2. to make an end of sins, 3. to make reconciliation of inquity, 4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. TO SEAL UP VISION and PROPHECY 6. to anoint the MOST HOLLY. What follows after verse 24 is just more of a detailed explanation or breakdown. The apostle Paul and Jesus had confirmed all these things have been fulfilled, therefore, I am forced to trust their word and interpret scripture accordingly (even if I don't completely understand what was written).

He made it clear? Said who? You?

Has Isreal ended her sin? No. (Why?) (why is Jerusalem and the Holy temple still desolate, and overrun by they Gentiles. Why is Isreal still in rebellion. What has she not repented like God said she would? There are so many why's which can not be answered

To seal up vision and prophesy. Has Jesus returned yet? I guess prophesy is not yet completed then is it?

What follows after vs 24. Well looks there, The one week covenant follows vs 24. So thank you, yes that is yet future, and NOT before the cutting off of messiah.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jay Adams does a much better job at explaining and breaking down the whole book of Daniel, Jacobs trouble was in the time frame of the 490 years. I honestly will pray that you take the time to listen to him. Although I don't agree with his predestination stance, his teaching on Daniel is excellent. You can find them here:Dr. Jay E. Adams Sermons | SermonAudio.com


PS> Nice seeing, I love you man.

If I get a chance I will look..

You know I love ya too. This is not Slavic issue, so not worth losing friendship over,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A little note on prophetic gaps.

A prophet gives us a view of events as he looks out over the future. He is looking at a straight line, and gives events as they happen in order.

He is looking at it head on, All he can see is the view as given to him. If we turn the event sideways, We can see there may be many valleys in between certain events. These valleys would be called gaps. Or periods of time that seperate one event from another.

I will have to go back to some of my notes. But there are examples of this in prophesies which have already been fulfilled. I will see if I can find them and show them.

A gap does not have to be insinuated, or written in words that there will be a period of time in between these events. But at the same time, It should never be assumed any group of events occurred one right after another with no period of time in between.

 

[garee]

I agree in part. This is not about salvation. Or about Jew vs Gentile. For we are all one in Christ. And even to Abraham, that was the most important part.

But we also can not ignore the many prophesies concerning messiah which he did not fulfill yet. The many prophecies which said these things will happen here on earth, and they have not yet happened yet.

If Gods prophecies are null and void. Or spiritualized away, then can he really foretell the future, Can he really say, This will happen in the future, and it happen,, Or does he need us to try to interpret it for him, because he really did not know what he was saying (which is the most important aspect of hermeneutics concerning prophecy) God uses prophecy for one reason. To prove he is the one true God. No other God can for tell future events, exactly as they happen. Only God can. I do not think he wants us allegorizing his prophetic word to make it fit as like it came true. When it has not..

We do not have to ignore any prophecy (the word of God), to prophesy is simply to declare His word, as it is written called prophecy .This is whether it points behind, to the present , or future.

What would the prophecies be that are yet to happen on earth (the temporal as that seen ) that will vanish away on the last day?

I would suggest that we do not spiritualize them away by searching for the spiritual understanding .It is how we interpret them. The man without the Spirit of Christ does not understand the spiritual understanding. They are hidden in parables.