Settling the Elect and Predestination Question

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cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
21,676
7,847
113
#41
Throughout those two posts (OP), I see nowhere covered the following word (in bold):

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath G138 from the beginning chosen G138 you to salvation through [en] sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
(a verse written to the same people that in verses 2,3a of this SAME CONTEXT Paul exhorted them not to be "deceived [subjunctive]" by a false claim floating around--why would Paul exhort about such a thing if it were "not possible"... and I'm not suggesting they would "lose their salvation"... I'm just pointing out that, if this statement in the OP [quoted at top] is a blanket statement, Paul would have had NO reason to say in v.3a, "Let no man deceive you in any way" TO THESE VERY PEOPLE that he is also saying were "chosen" by God).







Strong's "G138 - haireō / heilato " -

-- HELPS Word-studies
138 hairéomai (a primitive verb, always in the Greek middle voice) – properly, lay hold of by a personal choice.

[The Greek middle voice emphasizes the self-interest of the one preferring (deciding) to grasp or take.]


-- †αἱρέομαι hairéomai, hahee-reh'-om-ahee; probably akin to G142 [ airo ]; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:—choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate ἕλλομαι héllomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.









[G138 - "hath chosen"--a whole 'nuther category...]
A little OT, but since you are here, I thought that I would chime in.

We both agree that the "hidden" MYSTERY of the Rapture will occur rather stealthily.
The Wife of YHVH will be first to notice.

Chronister (rightly IMO) opines that there will be some kind of "covering" event that "masks" the spectacle of the rapture.
Something like a shut down of digital comms etc because of an earth magnetic field event, solar flare, EMP or whatever.

You have to figure, if only say 1 out of 100 get raptured, it would be relatively easy to mask this way.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,709
818
113
#42
So salvation is put completely on our shoulders huh? That doesn't sound like a great gift, or very good news to be honest. If it's up to me then I guess I'm going to burn. That sucks.
The bottom line is that you must endure.

Your endurance is that reliance on Jesus Christ through all the phases of life.

Salvation is always a gift and that never changes.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,314
322
83
#43
I agree we can go through many trials and tribulations, and will still be saved by Lord Jesus, but because of what? Because of 'our'... keeping The Faith.
You need to learn to ask questions, and not present what you say as dogmatic truth instead.

Believe what you want, if that's how you wish to approach it.
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
174
77
28
#44
There's been a long-standing debate over the question of Christ's elect and the idea of Apostle Paul's predestination idea, and what Lord Jesus said about some being chosen, while others are called.

In the following example, Jesus shows about His "very elect" (Greek kai elektos).

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that,
if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV


Lord Jesus in the above is warning about the coming of a fake-Christ. And He shows that IF... it were possible, that false-Christ working those "great signs and wonders" would be so deceptive... that it would deceive even His very elect. He is actually pointing to the idea that it is impossible for His "very elect" to be deceived in that.

Many brethren when reading that think that "very elect" idea is about all... believers on Jesus Christ. It is not, for Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16). And that idea of being a chosen one applies to apostleship, like His leaders He appointed over us in Christ.

How is this difference between those called to believe vs. a chosen very elect shown in God's Word?

Jonah of The Old Testament is a prime example. God told Jonah to go preach to the city of Nineveh, but Jonah tried to get out of that duty. Jonah fled on a ship, and God brought up a storm at sea with those aboard fearing for their life. So Jonah simply jumped overboard trying to end his life to get out of his duty, and save those aboard. God caused a great fish to swallow Jonah, and that fish then spit Jonah upon the shore at... right at the city of Nineveh. Jonah then fulfilled his duty God gave him, and God saved the people of Nineveh. Jonah sat on a hill overlooking the city, under a tree, and fell asleep. God caused the leaves of that tree to grow out and give Jonah shade. Then in the morning when the sun came out, God withered that tree back to let the sun bead down on Jonah, because Jonah was angry. (And this shows our Heavenly Father does at times have a sense of humor.)

My point, is that Jonah was obviously a 'chosen one', very elect, and those in that position are not going to get out of their duty God has given them. The reason is, He already owns them.

Apostle Paul is another prime example as a 'chosen' one. Paul (then called Saul before being converted to Christ), was a Pharisee working for them to hunt down Christians and bring them bound to Jerusalem for trial by the Jews. Saul was even on the road to Damascus for that very purpose when Jesus spoke to him and caused Saul to be blind (Acts 9). Jesus directly intervened with Saul, removing all of Saul's doubt about Christ's existence. And Jesus said about Saul that he was His "chosen vessel" to take The Gospel to the Gentiles, and to kings, and to the children of Israel.

Can we all... claim the above examples in our own lives when we first believed on Jesus Christ? I don't think so. Most of us are 'called' only, and not 'chosen' like Jonah or Apostle Paul. And per what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24:24 about His "very elect", that shows those 'chosen' cannot be deceived. That's what that "if it were possible" phrase in that verse means. It is not possible that His "very elect" (chosen) can be deceived, particularly by that coming false-Messiah which Jesus was warning about there for the end of this world. So this idea of a 'chosen' "very elect" also applies still today for some brethren in Christ, so it is not only for the time of Christ's Apostles.

The mistake many brethren have made is with that we are all 'chosen', when most of us are 'called' only. That thinking is where many got the belief that all who have believed cannot be deceived. That's not true for those 'called', for most of us must be tested in the Faith, and not become apostates. This Truth is given especially by The New Testament warnings to the Church to remain faithful waiting on our Lord Jesus to come, and to not fall away. Those warnings would never have been given (especially by Apostle Paul), if it were not possible for all believers to be deceived.

Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV


See also 1 Timothy 1:19-20; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 6:5; 2 Peter 2:18-22. Those Scriptures apply only to those who once believed on Jesus, but then fall away. It does not apply to those who are 'chosen' ones, who can never fall away from Christ.

Jesus covered this difference between those who are chosen vs. those who are called only, in His prayer of John 17 just before being delivered up to be crucified. I'll cover that next, so the post may be pretty long...

(Continued...)

James tells us by the Spirit in Jas 1: 13-15:
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Paul tells us in 1 Cor 10:13:
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Peter tells in in 2 Pet 2: 19-21:
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.