Seventh-day Adventists

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,695
3,631
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This should put it all to rest.

LISTEN PEOPLE. We cannot live under two covenants at the same time. God works in covenants.

Stop at once. Its only confusing people mixing covenants and making a mess of the bible. Take your pick: New Covenant, with no MANDATORY (its ok to keep the sabbath) feasts or sabbaths or circumcision. Keep the law of Christ, love your neighbor, and love God.
OR the mosaic covenant with circumcision feasts and sabbaths, but if you choose this one, dont be one of these hypocrites that only keep the sabbath half-way, bring the animal sacrifices in too, bring in the levite high-priest and congregating in Jerusalem, do it properly.

As for me and my house, we will pick the new covenant. Thank you very much. IVE BEEN DOWN THE JUDAIZER PATH BEFORE. It brings no peace NOR salvation. Take my word for it.
this is true. one cannot pick and choose which covenant to be under.

one cannot pick parts of one and parts of another, shake and stir, and come up with a mixture of both.

in the O.T. , God says " with Israel " over and over. not the world. Israel only.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
1,388
190
63
Two laws (and all the others, but we wont get complicated)
--one that is moral and constant.
--the other is a shadow and example.

By understanding these the bible makes sense.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
7,636
2,751
113
Have you ever been to Israel? Im asking because if you go to Tel Aviv you cant tell the difference between Sabbath and Tuesday. Israel is a secular country mostly. Contrary to what hebrew roots believers think, most jews couldnt care less about the Torah.

Jerusalem is definately more peaceful, particularly the west Jerusalem which tends to have more of an orthodox jewish population. The "newer" areas seem regular.
It depends where you go the amount of orthodox jews and then the rest secular jews even athiest jews. No I havent been to tel aviv. Some pockets of america have very orthodox populations, that I read about and they have strict observance of sabbath and boundaries of how far you can walk etc. you cant turn a light on you have to get someone else to do it for you. Women cant go without headcoverings. You need two sinks to separate dairy from meat. Etc. but like people that dont believe still celebrate christmas, even if most have no idea WHO thy are celebrating jews who dont believe still celebrate passover, when somene dies they sit shiva, and they still have bar mitsvahs. Its as much tradition and culture as religion.

I wouldnt say the current state of Israel is all believing but like any country has a mixture of beliefs, but the criteria for being jewish is circumcision and speaking hebrew it seems they have to be in the majority. Its all very complex.

I dont think you get in trouble for not observing its only if you belonged to any of those orthodox religious groups. Some would call them sects. But then, many people regarded christianity as a sect of judaism when it first began. After all Jesus was Jewish.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
849
271
63
Is there anybody who would like to ask a question about SDAs or who would just like to ask any Bible question. I am a SDA and so I will try to give everybody a Bible based answer
How do SDA reckon these verses. And PLEASE answer my "Quick Question & my 2nd question at the very end. Thx, in advance FD

Sabbath Day Ordinance's

Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex 20:10 (A) the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work
(NOTE: NO work allowed)

Ex 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death:
(NOTE: Any of the The CHILDREN of ISRAEL that works on the Sabbath Day, you shall put to DEATH)

Ex 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death
(NOTE: Any of the The CHILDREN of ISRAEL that works on the Sabbath Day, you shall put to DEATH)

Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(NOTE: The CHILDREN of ISRAEL shall observe this Sabbath ORDINANCE)

Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
(NOTE: Any of the the CHILDREN of ISRAEL that works on the Sabbath Day, you shall put to DEATH)

Ex 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

NOTE: You shall kindle "NO FIRE" on the Sabbath. They couldn't even lite a candle!

Quick Question: For those promoting Sabbath keeping today. Do you DRIVE to your chosen place of worship? You may want to study-up on internal combustion = The BURNING of fuel.

More Sabbath Day Ordinance's

Look what happened to the guy that picked up some sticks on the Sabbath Day

Num 15:
17 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

18 (A) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them
(NOTE: Speak to the CHILDREN of ISRAEL!)

25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
(NOTE: Vs 18-25 are about ORDINANCES! That God gives to Moses, to give to the: CHILDREN of ISRAEL! For sin offerings & sacrifices)

26 (A) And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel
NOTE: Forgiveness will be given to all the congregation of the: CHILDREN of ISRAEL!
NOTE 2: A sojourner was a temporary resident/stranger/traveler who was required to follow all the laws of the land = Mosaic Law.)

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
(NOTE: The CHILDREN of ISRAEL found a man gathered sticks upon the sabbath day).

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
(NOTE: The CHILDREN of ISRAEL brought the stick gather to Moses)

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
(NOTE: They didn't know what to do with him)

35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(NOTE: The LORD tells Moses, this man must be put to DEATH!)

36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
(NOTE: So, the congregation stones him to DEATH!)

Question 2: Does your congregation stone Sabbath violators to DEATH? If not, why not?
 
Sep 25, 2018
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How do SDA reckon these verses. And PLEASE answer my "Quick Question & my 2nd question at the very end. Thx, in advance FD

Sabbath Day Ordinance's

Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex 20:10 (A) the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work
(NOTE: NO work allowed)

Ex 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death:
(NOTE: Any of the The CHILDREN of ISRAEL that works on the Sabbath Day, you shall put to DEATH)

Ex 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death
(NOTE: Any of the The CHILDREN of ISRAEL that works on the Sabbath Day, you shall put to DEATH)

Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(NOTE: The CHILDREN of ISRAEL shall observe this Sabbath ORDINANCE)

Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
(NOTE: Any of the the CHILDREN of ISRAEL that works on the Sabbath Day, you shall put to DEATH)

Ex 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

NOTE: You shall kindle "NO FIRE" on the Sabbath. They couldn't even lite a candle!

Quick Question: For those promoting Sabbath keeping today. Do you DRIVE to your chosen place of worship? You may want to study-up on internal combustion = The BURNING of fuel.

More Sabbath Day Ordinance's

Look what happened to the guy that picked up some sticks on the Sabbath Day

Num 15:
17 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

18 (A) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them
(NOTE: Speak to the CHILDREN of ISRAEL!)

25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
(NOTE: Vs 18-25 are about ORDINANCES! That God gives to Moses, to give to the: CHILDREN of ISRAEL! For sin offerings & sacrifices)

26 (A) And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel
NOTE: Forgiveness will be given to all the congregation of the: CHILDREN of ISRAEL!
NOTE 2: A sojourner was a temporary resident/stranger/traveler who was required to follow all the laws of the land = Mosaic Law.)

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
(NOTE: The CHILDREN of ISRAEL found a man gathered sticks upon the sabbath day).

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
(NOTE: The CHILDREN of ISRAEL brought the stick gather to Moses)

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
(NOTE: They didn't know what to do with him)

35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(NOTE: The LORD tells Moses, this man must be put to DEATH!)

36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
(NOTE: So, the congregation stones him to DEATH!)

Question 2: Does your congregation stone Sabbath violators to DEATH? If not, why not?
As far as SDAs understand it, Sabbath is about resting from everyday and secular labor, and focusing on God. This is what God did when He finished His creation, and made some quality time to spend with His new children, Adam and Eve. However, when the Pharisees complained about how Jesus' disciples picked food on the Sabbath, and how Jesus healed on the Sabbath, Jesus was plain that acts of mercy (Matt. 12:12) and reasonable acts of necessity (Mark 2:23-28) are permitted on the Sabbath.

In the time of the Israelites, they were under a theocracy. The people also had just come out of Egypt and had a primitive view of spiritual matters, so God was very firm with them. After all the miracles they had seen Him do, it would be unthinkable for them to go against His express commands--yet some of them did. This could get into the argument about how our loving Heavenly Father could order executions, but the record of His mercy to the Israelites over their history helps clarify that God never wants to destroy us, but to save us (Ez. 33:11), and that everything He does is in the best interest of the universe as a whole.

Today we aren't under a theocracy, and Christians who steal and commit adultery are not put to death. Jesus also illustrated His justice mixed with mercy in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8). Besides, it is the heart that God looks at, and many of us have already done evil in our hearts long before we did the act (Matt. 5:28).

As for the issue of kindling a fire--I believe that keeping the Sabbath is about principles. If I have the principle of doing no unecessary work on the Sabbath, then this includes house and yard work and a regular job (except for those directly keeping people safe, like nursing). However, while it would have been unecessary for the Israelites to kindle a fire in a warmer climate (and it would have been labor-intensive), in the northern climates a fire can be a necessary way of keeping warm. The same goes for cooking. My family does most of the cooking and food preparation on Friday, but we still warm up the prepared food on Sabbath. Pushing a button on a microwave is not difficult work, nor is starting a car.

It all comes down to this: is the task I'm doing going to help or hinder my connection with God, my worship of Him, or my keeping the Sabbath holy? God laid out guidelines throughout the Bible, but context has to be taken into consideration, and while Jesus never diminished the sanctity of the Sabbath, He pointed out the true spirit of it--it's about our relationship with God, not about all the little minutia of details that actually make the Sabbath more of a burden than a delight.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
31,811
9,821
113
65
Florida
I did read post #307 thanks.
It says that the SDA church is governed by a general conference.

That is completely different from a church that is governed by Jesus as the head.
No church on earth fits this description.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
31,811
9,821
113
65
Florida
That should be the least of your concerns. No doubt they are a denomination, hence a general conference.

But a few of theirs teachings are off kilter, particularly Christ's ministry in the heavenly Sanctuary and Sunday worship as being the Mark of the Beast.
Yes, they do teach those things. Regarding the Sunday worship only time will tell. To do this in the US the constitution would either have to be amended or totally discarded. Seems to me that most citizens of the US don't even go to church at all, Sunday or otherwise. I don't believe that the SDA is even remotely correct in regards to Sunday worship mandated by receiving the mark of the beast. Years ago, I attended an SDA seminar that was 8 weeks long, and met 3 times a week for 3 hours a meeting and most of it was related to this particular area of Revelation. Interesting seminar though. For the record I am a Catholic and not SDA but my wife is and I have attended many Sabbath day worship services and bible study.
 
Sep 25, 2018
49
34
18
This should put it all to rest.

LISTEN PEOPLE. We cannot live under two covenants at the same time. God works in covenants.

Stop at once. Its only confusing people mixing covenants and making a mess of the bible. Take your pick: New Covenant, with no MANDATORY (its ok to keep the sabbath) feasts or sabbaths or circumcision. Keep the law of Christ, love your neighbor, and love God.
OR the mosaic covenant with circumcision feasts and sabbaths, but if you choose this one, dont be one of these hypocrites that only keep the sabbath half-way, bring the animal sacrifices in too, bring in the levite high-priest and congregating in Jerusalem, do it properly.

As for me and my house, we will pick the new covenant. Thank you very much. IVE BEEN DOWN THE JUDAIZER PATH BEFORE. It brings no peace NOR salvation. Take my word for it.
I think you're right that there is only one way of salvation, through God's covenant to put His law in our hearts: "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. " (Jer. 31:33).

My thought is, We can't have any part of God's law written on our hearts, except through Jesus. If we accept His righteousness in place of our own filthy rags, then we will desire to be a blessing to other people rather than hurting them (even though we fall short and have to repent sometimes). Also, we will want to honor God in all our ways. Our hearts will be changed to reflect the heart of Christ more and more "from glory to glory" (2 Cor. 3:18). My only disagreement with the main-stream way of thinking about the law/covenants is that I believe that the Sabbath is part of honoring God and loving Him with all my heart. I don't see the Sabbath as exclusively for the Israelites, because God instituted it at Creation, and it is part of the Ten Commandments (along with the commands to have no other gods, and to not take God's name in vain). The Ten Commandments are part of God's character and the way His kingdom works, while the ceremonial laws were meant to point toward Jesus and His fulfillment of them. If keeping the Sabbath--and by that I mean the spirit of it, and not the plethora of Pharisaical regulations--is legalism, then so is being faithful to a spouse, or using God's name reverently. But I wouldn't do away with the details in the commandment, either. If I reason that it's all right to bow down to an engraved image of Jesus because I'm keeping the spirit of the 2nd commandment, I think I missed the mark somewhere. God knows what's best for our spirituality and mentality.

My point is that we can't keep any part of the law except through Jesus. If we're keeping the law--either the Ten Commandments, or any ceremonial or man-made regulations--in order to gain salvation, it will profit us nothing. The beauty of the new covenant is that we understand to a much greater degree how much we owe to Jesus our righteousness. "He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. " (John 15:5). Our salvation isn't based on our keeping of the law, but if we love God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves, then we will want to be as faithful to Him as possible. Faith and love lead to godly obedience and Christ-likeness, not toward human, carnal, selfish, or self-righteous ways.

Righteousness by faith is still a tough road to navigate, and I think we all have to go through our own experiences like Paul (Romans 6-8) and Martin Luther as we figure it out. I'm glad we can discuss it openly here, because it's a great topic to study into.
 
Sep 25, 2018
49
34
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I did read post #307 thanks.
It says that the SDA church is governed by a general conference.

That is completely different from a church that is governed by Jesus as the head.
I don't think it's wrong to have church organization--even the disciples delegated responsibilities in the early church (Acts 6), and during the dispute about circumcision in Acts 15, there was a large gathering of church leaders to make a decision on the issue: "And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. " (Acts 15:6)

I think the problem comes when we rely on a church, organization, pastor, or any human to make decisions for us regarding our consciences. We can't follow anyone else's opinions in regards to spiritual things; we have to study for ourselves what truth is, and no man-made institution has the right to dictate how we should relate to God.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
849
271
63
As far as SDAs understand it, Sabbath is about resting from everyday and secular labor, and focusing on God. This is what God did when He finished His creation, and made some quality time to spend with His new children, Adam and Eve. However, when the Pharisees complained about how Jesus' disciples picked food on the Sabbath, and how Jesus healed on the Sabbath, Jesus was plain that acts of mercy (Matt. 12:12) and reasonable acts of necessity (Mark 2:23-28) are permitted on the Sabbath.

In the time of the Israelites, they were under a theocracy. The people also had just come out of Egypt and had a primitive view of spiritual matters, so God was very firm with them. After all the miracles they had seen Him do, it would be unthinkable for them to go against His express commands--yet some of them did. This could get into the argument about how our loving Heavenly Father could order executions, but the record of His mercy to the Israelites over their history helps clarify that God never wants to destroy us, but to save us (Ez. 33:11), and that everything He does is in the best interest of the universe as a whole.

Today we aren't under a theocracy, and Christians who steal and commit adultery are not put to death. Jesus also illustrated His justice mixed with mercy in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8). Besides, it is the heart that God looks at, and many of us have already done evil in our hearts long before we did the act (Matt. 5:28).

As for the issue of kindling a fire--I believe that keeping the Sabbath is about principles. If I have the principle of doing no unecessary work on the Sabbath, then this includes house and yard work and a regular job (except for those directly keeping people safe, like nursing). However, while it would have been unecessary for the Israelites to kindle a fire in a warmer climate (and it would have been labor-intensive), in the northern climates a fire can be a necessary way of keeping warm. The same goes for cooking. My family does most of the cooking and food preparation on Friday, but we still warm up the prepared food on Sabbath. Pushing a button on a microwave is not difficult work, nor is starting a car.

It all comes down to this: is the task I'm doing going to help or hinder my connection with God, my worship of Him, or my keeping the Sabbath holy? God laid out guidelines throughout the Bible, but context has to be taken into consideration, and while Jesus never diminished the sanctity of the Sabbath, He pointed out the true spirit of it--it's about our relationship with God, not about all the little minutia of details that actually make the Sabbath more of a burden than a delight.

If I understand your reply correctly, SDA'S don't keep the 4th commandment & it's God given ordinances as posted & written in scripture.

Here is a C&P from the SDA.org site:

The sites stated belief's differ from your reply. Here is a Copy & Paste from the SDA site:

Quote: "The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest"
(NOTE: The SDA sites stated belief say's God's UNCHANGEABLE LAW. Your reply change's the law. A DEATH sentence under Mosaic Law.

Here is another passage that disagrees with your reply:

Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(NOTE: God gave Moses a Sabbath day commandment & a litany of ordinances to be followed as a perpetual covenant.)
 
Sep 25, 2018
49
34
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If I understand your reply correctly, SDA'S don't keep the 4th commandment & it's God given ordinances as posted & written in scripture.

Here is a C&P from the SDA.org site:

The sites stated belief's differ from your reply. Here is a Copy & Paste from the SDA site:

Quote: "The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest"
(NOTE: The SDA sites stated belief say's God's UNCHANGEABLE LAW. Your reply change's the law. A DEATH sentence under Mosaic Law.

Here is another passage that disagrees with your reply:

Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
(NOTE: God gave Moses a Sabbath day commandment & a litany of ordinances to be followed as a perpetual covenant.)
I think the disagreement comes from different views of what the unchangeable law is. SDAs believe that the "unchangeable law" is the Ten Commandments, which are a more detailed description of how we love God with all our hearts, and our neighbor as ourselves. These commandments have been a part of God's kingdom long before Mt. Sinai and Moses, as we can see when God blessed and sanctified the 7th day after Creation Week, and when He told Cain that it was wrong to kill Able. If there was no law, there would be no knowledge of sin, and no justification for judging the sinner (Rom. 2:12, 3:20).

The Mosaic laws of theocratic (referring to an exclusively God-governed society) rules and regulations were related to context, culture, and shadow-types of the coming Messiah. They were extra rules for keeping the Israelites on the right track, since they had lost sight of how to live like citizens of God's kingdom after years of sin and slavery. These rules were not the principles of God's everlasting kingdom, but just arrows pointing to them. Under a theocracy, defiant lawbreakers were put to death, even for stealing and coveting (as in the case of Achan in Joshua 7). However, Jesus showed a blend of both mercy and justice when He said to the woman caught in adultery, "Neither to I condemn you; go, and sin no more" (John 8:11).

Since we are no longer under a theocracy, we look at Jesus' example of displaying both truth and love, obedience and mercy. Hardly any Christians would decide to keep the Mosaic laws to stone people who committed adultery, but as followers of Christ, we can reflect His perfect righteousness by keeping the Ten Commandments out of love. "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15). The Ten Commandments give us tangible ways of how to show love to God and mankind. The laws of Moses have changed, but God's eternal Ten Commandments have not. And I believe that we will still follow His commands in Heaven out of love for Him and one another--which can only be done through the blood of Christ, and His righteousness replacing our filthy rags of self-righteousness. Does that make sense?