Sheol

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Thank you for sharing.

Do you believe that Faith is first imputed and then we believe in Christ, or do we believe in Christ and then Faith is imputed? In my mind, I don't see how belief in Christ is possible until the Curse of the Lord has been separated from our Heart. Fundamentally, a Cursed person cannot believe. However, a person who has been separated from the Mind of Satan, the Sinful Nature, or whatever we want to call it, seems to be when genuine belief in Christ is made possible. Consider the passage (and concept) below:

Romans 8:7 NLT - "For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will."

However, the below passage indicates that the only way to remove the Veil (the Curse of the Lord), is by believing in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:14 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ."

How do we believe in Christ if the Curse of the Lord prevents that ability to believe?

Could any member of Israel understand the Truth that Moses was offering them when the Veil covered his face? It seems that the logical answer would be no, otherwise, the Veil would be useless. The Purpose of the Veil is to cause Spiritual Blindness so that the Truth is impossible to understand. Because of the Veil, the Truth of Moses could not be understood, nor did they have the choice to simply understand regardless of the raised Veil. For the Israelite's to understand the Truth of the Lord, the Veil (Curse of the Lord) must be removed as the Veil of Moses was removed.

Do you see my point?

What an amazing discussion.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Nice try...Catholics are not bible believers. I am. I believe every word. Do Catholics believe in a real place called hell? How about the lake of fire? Most Christians on this thread believe in a real hell and lake of fire as the Bible states.
Ditto to you. Many Christians seem ignorant of the difference between hell and the Lake of Fire. Just the other day I had someone present in this thread tell me that: "Heaven and hell are not physical locations. They are spiritual states." Funny how you claim to be a Bible believer while denying what it explicitly states, while you promote ideas which are un-Biblical.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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Nice try...Catholics are not bible believers. I am. I believe every word. Do Catholics believe in a real place called hell? How about the lake of fire? Most Christians on this thread believe in a real hell and lake of fire as the Bible states.
Yes, Catholics do believe the Bible and in a real hell.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Thank you. However, I didn't walk away feeling like Gal 2:16 answered or solved anything. (No disrespect to you.)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Yes, Catholics do believe the Bible and in a real hell.
Catholics also promote a lot of heresies, such as some here do.

God chose death as the consequence/punishment for sin, while you deny that death is punishment.

So really, who is not believing the Bible???

I affirm that the wages of sin is death.

Others have adopted and vociferously defend an RCC doctrine.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Funny how you claim to be a Bible believer while denying what it explicitly states, while you promote ideas which are un-Biblical.
None of your replies have disproved what I believe, only your private interpretations.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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God chose death as the consequence/punishment for sin, while you deny that death is punishment.
Where are you getting this from that myself and Lucy do not believe in punishment for sin? I do not believe in annihilation. Annihilation is not biblical.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Thank you. However, I didn't walk away feeling like Gal 2:16 answered or solved anything. (No disrespect to you.)
Hearing the gospel
Believing the gospel
Salvation and justification is imputed
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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None of your replies have disproved what I believe, only your private interpretations.
God alone is immortal disproves your claim that man is inherently immortal.

You deny what the Bible explicitly articulates in straightforward language.

It is something you must do to say those dead to God remain conscious following the second death.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Catholics also promote a lot of heresies, such as some here do.

God chose death as the consequence/punishment for sin, while you deny that death is punishment.

So really, who is not believing the Bible???

I affirm that the wages of sin is death.

Others have adopted and vociferously defend an RCC doctrine.

I'm not sure what spin you are trying to put on which subject.
Catholics hold the orthodox belief as do mainline Protestants concerning the eternal destination of the unrepentant.
They are not in error on this subject.

Annihilationism is a fringe or cult view.
 

iTheophilus

Well-known member
Oct 28, 2021
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Yes, the entire context is our bodies. Our bodies are corruptible, mortal. At the resurrection, we will be given incorruptible, immortal bodies. Then we can finally say, O death where is thy sting...
Yeah, you got it; however our incorruptible, immortal bodies will never be made out of flesh and blood bodies like we have now. At the Second Coming, our bodies will be changed! No more flesh!

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

- 1 Corinthians 15:40-46 (NKJV)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I'm not sure what spin you are trying to put on which subject.
Catholics hold the orthodox belief as do mainline Protestants concerning the eternal destination of the unrepentant.
They are not in error on this subject.


Annihilationism is a fringe or cult view.
The destruction of the wicked is explicitly articulated from beginning to end of Scripture, and was taught for many centuries after Jesus Christ walked this world, with eternal conscious torment creeping in via Hellenistic thought and the Catholic Church's endorsement with pope Gregory in the 6th century, after which, close to a thousand years later, the RCC declared the destruction of the wicked heretical.

What spin? Did you not say death is not punishment because the dead do not know they are dead?

And if not that explicitly, something that definitely conveyed that idea?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Some key takeway points:

1) Now the point that Peter wants you to understand is this, that when Jesus was crucified on the cross His body died and His body went where? To the tomb. But when His body was dead, His spirit was what? Alive. Now the question is, where did He go, this living spirit? Well it tells us in verse 19. It says, "In which” that is in His spirit also “He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison." "In which also" means in that living spirit, apart from His body, which lay in the tomb, the living, eternal Christ went someplace. The verb here refers to a personal going. It's also used down in verse 22. It's translated "having gone." It's the same verb. It means literally to go somewhere else. So He went somewhere else.

2) Where did He go? Well it says He went, very clearly here, and made proclamation. He went and made proclamation. He gave a sermon. He went somewhere to preach. He went and gave a triumphant sermon. So even before His resurrection now, even before His resurrection on Sunday morning, He was moving freely in the spiritual realm, okay? And He went to...to preach. Now the verb here "to preach," or to make a proclamation, is not euaggeliz, to preach the gospel. He didn't go somewhere to preach salvation. It is the verb kruss, which means to make a proclamation or to announce a triumph. It is the word “to herald.”
Somebody needs to check those Greek terms lol. Whoever transcribed that sermon made a couple of spelling mistakes.
 

SteveEpperson

Junior Member
May 12, 2018
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I'd recommend reading the posts from folks other than myself (in this thread.) These friends have offered up some incredible ideas, if not facts, regarding your request. Because of what these people have written, I'd have to say this is the coolest thread I've ever seen (not because of me, but because of them and their Holy Understanding, Knowlege, and Wisdom).
That notwithstanding, I prefer the Word of God for verification of events. And here I am looking for scriptural evidence that backs up the claim that Jesus spent three days and three nights in Shoel/Hades prior to the resurrection. If you can provide that for me, I would be grateful. :)
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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The destruction of the wicked is explicitly articulated from beginning to end of Scripture, and was taught for many centuries after Jesus Christ walked this world, with eternal conscious torment creeping in via Hellenistic thought and the Catholic Church's endorsement with pope Gregory in the 6th century, after which, close to a thousand years later, the RCC declared the destruction of the wicked heretical.

What spin? Did you not say death is not punishment because the dead do not know they are dead?

And if not that explicitly, something that definitely conveyed that idea?
I disagree with most of your post. I'm not usung the red x because it looks so severe.
I'm really not interested in going over the same ground we did recently in the annihilation thread.

We have different beliefs on this subject & both of us have scriptural reasons for those beliefs.
 

SteveEpperson

Junior Member
May 12, 2018
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Christ visited Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights, and proclaimed His victory to all the spirits in prison (while His body lay in the tomb).
Do you have a scriptural reference for this? Thanks in advance.
'm not really getting involved at the moment. I'm just providing references. I'll do my best to synthesize clearly.
(David speaking) “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.” (Psalm 16:10)

“David looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ: 'You will not abandon my soul to Hades' (Acts 2:31) (Jesus didn't leave him there...since sin was finally paid for, the OT saints could be gathered from their waiting place (Abraham's bosom. That's the whole purpose of Hades/Sheol, it's the waiting place for judgment. NT saints don't have to wait there because our sins have been judged on the cross of Christ. But the wicked still go there to wait for the great white throne judgment (Rev 20).

“He (Jesus) descended into the lower parts of the earth?” (Ephesians 4:9)

“For Christ also died for sins once for all...in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,” ... "making a public display of them, having triumphed over them” (1 Peter 3:18–19, Colossians 2:15)
While it makes sense that Jesus would be willing to enter Hades to free the saints, neither of these scriptures prove that. Neither does Acts 2:31. All three verses merely state that God was willing, through the resurrection of Christ, and not necessarily Jesus' descension into Hades, to free those from this place of judgment.

In Ephesians 4:9, I think Paul was pondering the same question I have. And the reason he was asking the rhetorical question was that he didn't know for sure. And neither do you or I.

We can theorize that he descended to Hades, but some suggest that he descended to his grave, later conquering it after three days. That, they guess, was his descension.

It makes no difference to me whether he went to Hades to free the captives, or if it was done through the almighty hand of the Father. It will not change my view of the Gospel. However, I think we have to be careful when we attempt to reveal something God himself is not ready to reveal to us.

In this case, He has not fully revealed where Jesus was between the death and resurrection. And I would have to assume that is part of His divine will.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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However, I think we have to be careful when we attempt to reveal something God himself is not ready to reveal to us.
The truth is that God has already revealed to us what occurred between the crucifixion and the resurrection. So what you are really saying is that you do not believe God.

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. (Eph 4:7-10)

What is God revealing to us in this passage, and what is "the lower parts of the earth"? Is it not Sheol/Hades? Christ was indeed in Sheol/Hades and when He "led captivity captive" it means that the OT saints who were in virtual captivity in Hades were released from prison when Christ ascended with them to Heaven after His resurrection. Their captivity is personified here. And it is only after the ascension of Christ that the Holy Spirit was poured out upon "all flesh". And that is when Christ gave "gifts" to men, the primary gift being the gift of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2).
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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I disagree with most of your post. I'm not usung the red x because it looks so severe.
I'm really not interested in going over the same ground we did recently in the annihilation thread.


We have different beliefs on this subject & both of us have scriptural reasons for those beliefs.
You're OK Lucy, she gets that way.
bless you
 

SteveEpperson

Junior Member
May 12, 2018
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So what you are really saying is that you do not believe God.
While it makes sense that Jesus would be willing to enter Hades to free the saints, neither of these scriptures prove that. Neither does Acts 2:31. All three verses merely state that God was willing, through the resurrection of Christ, and not necessarily Jesus' descension into Hades, to free those from this place of judgment.

In Ephesians 4:9, I think Paul was pondering the same question I have. And the reason he was asking the rhetorical question was that he didn't know for sure. And neither do you or I.

We can theorize that he descended to Hades, but some suggest that he descended to his grave, later conquering it after three days. That, they guess, was his descension.

It makes no difference to me whether he went to Hades to free the captives, or if it was done through the almighty hand of the Father. It will not change my view of the Gospel.

In this case, He has not fully revealed where Jesus was between the death and resurrection. And I would have to assume that is part of His divine will.