Show your faith through your works

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
397
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#41
The simple fact is this. I do not believe anyone in this thread believes we are saved by works...why don't your read the posts previous to making declarations against individuals understanding? It will save you a lot of typing time.
I was reinforcing what was posted. Why do you assert otherwise making it seem like something else?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
397
83
#42
The simple fact is this. I do not believe anyone in this thread believes we are saved by works...why don't your read the posts previous to making declarations against individuals understanding? It will save you a lot of typing time.
I was reinforcing what was posted. Why do you assert otherwise making it seem like something else?

Now what is going on. I got a message I have to wait several seconds before posting a reply!!

Now I see it was posted. Don't understand what is going on with the software of this board.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,157
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#43
I was reinforcing what was posted. Why do you assert otherwise making it seem like something else?

No excuse, it was a short post by you and I did not use my text to voice apparatus, and I read it completely backwards…....You do not have to forgive me, caue I will probably do it again here and there….God bless you always……….j
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,807
1,057
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#44
I believe that scripture is told to us on several levels, so historical facts have also a deeper level.

Paul said ceremonies were like a master guiding children to school, and now we have the Holy Spirit as a guide. Dietary laws need to be studied to see where the Holy Spirit is guiding us. Same with all ceremonies, even the sacrificial ceremony explaining what Christ does for us.

The historical fact of the creation of the Sabbath was simply a historical fact that is still a fact today. You can't create something factually and not have it in our world after you created it. There is spiritual meaning, deep meaning, in it but that meaning does not take the day as it was created out of our world.

The word Sabbath is not a time sensitive word it means rest .Adding other word to it loses it meaning.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,157
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#45
The word Sabbath is not a time sensitive word it means rest .Adding other word to it loses it meaning.
Why argue over the translation of the word Shabbat when the crux of th matter is the designation given the seventh day by God, our Father? It is a red herring.

What does the Father say about the seventh day, the day after the six of creation?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#46
I have experience, over and over, being put down for posting a work that I believe in. I am told om their post that I believe in works for salvation if I mention a work.
Do you make it clear that you believe the work you are talking about doing is not unto salvation?

As an example I believe the scripture in Genesis that God created the seventh day for our Sabbath. Often I am told that anyone who quotes that scripture is wrong and one of the basis for that determination is that telling of that Scripture means that I believe in works instead of grace. They connect Sabbath and works in their minds, seeming to feel that no work such as that should be mentioned. Any Law of Moses that is listed on a post is subject to scathing rebuttal.
Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2-3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses. The word "Sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.

Sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: “The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested” (Exodus 31:16-17). After commanding Sabbath observance in Deuteronomy 5:12-14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day” (Deuteronomy 5:15).

Keeping the Sabbath day is not binding on the Church in the New Testament (Colossians 2:16-17). There are those who teach otherwise and go so far as to say that if you worship God on Sunday instead of Saturday that you will receive the mark of the beast, which is a ludicrous teaching! - http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml

Such people will also argue that the Sabbath day began in Genesis. There are those who do connect Sabbath keeping with salvation and teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works," so it's a touchy subject!
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#47
I believe that scripture is told to us on several levels, so historical facts have also a deeper level.
Yes the spiritual meaning were used to preach the gospel beforehand hid from natural man. They are found as you say as historically true parables. The whole period of Kings in Israel were used that way up until the reformation.

Paul said ceremonies were like a master guiding children to school, and now we have the Holy Spirit as a guide. Dietary laws need to be studied to see where the Holy Spirit is guiding us. Same with all ceremonies, even the sacrificial ceremony explaining what Christ does for us.
In our new reformed government we are given a few new ceremonial laws to be used as shadows that point ahead. a cuple older ones are still in effect as shadows

The historical fact of the creation of the Sabbath was simply a historical fact that is still a fact today. You can't create something factually and not have it in our world after you created it. There is spiritual meaning, deep meaning, in it but that meaning does not take the day as it was created out of our world.

If the word Sabbath is not time sensitive there is no day to be taken from it .

Many do not divide the shadow from the actual substance and use the shadow as a works righteousness doctrine to confirm they have the Holy Spirit as some sort of outward evidence. and call it self edification . Which is self righteousness. They perform that with other ceremonial laws as shadows which has it roots in the Old Testament, also like baptist, .which many use as a sign gift
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#48
Why argue over the translation of the word Shabbat when the crux of the matter is the designation given the seventh day by God, our Father? It is a red herring.

What does the Father say about the seventh day, the day after the six of creation?
God said that He completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. God did not call it the "Sabbath day" and command everyone from Adam to Moses to keep the Sabbath day. The Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the Ten Commandments is not found in the book of Genesis.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,807
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#49
Why argue over the translation of the word Shabbat when the crux of th matter is the designation given the seventh day by God, our Father? It is a red herring.

What does the Father say about the seventh day, the day after the six of creation?
Interestingly he does not mention rest in the first declaration .Chapter 1

Chapter two said he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

That does not change a non time sensitive word into one. It just is saying he rested from all His work
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#50
God said that He completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. God did not call it the "Sabbath day" and command everyone from Adam to Moses to keep the Sabbath day. The Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the Ten Commandments is not found in the book of Genesis.
That's interesting which I would agree with it must have another purpose. What are the two words? I have another way of looking at the ten commandments that I think could add to what you are saying?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#51

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#52
Interestingly he does not mention rest in the first declaration .Chapter 1

Chapter two said he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

That does not change a non time sensitive word into one. It just is saying he rested from all His work

You still have a word as an the center of resolution when the designation of the day is what matters, and the designation is by God not be the definition of ay word.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#53
That's interesting which I would agree with it must have another purpose.
Something else that is interesting. In Hebrews 4:9, we read - "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

Sabbatarians will argue that this refers to the weekly Sabbath, yet the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used here and no where else in the Bible! Amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else in the Bible! W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary proves the Sabbatarian argument wrong.

SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into Divine rest, that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (y)
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,807
1,057
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#54
Something else that is interesting. In Hebrews 4:9, we read - "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

Sabbatarians will argue that this refers to the weekly Sabbath, yet the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used here and no where else in the Bible! Amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else in the Bible! W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary proves the Sabbatarian argument wrong.

SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into Divine rest, that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (y)
Thanks. Yes it does not say there remains a Sunday for the people of God as shadow of the true substance .

Not h that I have a perfect understanding of the phrase "mix faith" in what we hear or see. . But it is the determining factor as to the rest whether we receive it or not.

The two renderings of the ten commandment (Exodus and Deuteronomy) are purposely given different reasoning authorities connected to the one rest . both preach the gospel beforehand in respect to the suffering of Christ . Egypt is used as a historically true parable to describe our entering the promised land the new heavens and earth, receiving the promise our new incorruptible bodies. Using the temporal seen to give us the eternal not seen spiritual understanding.

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.Exodus 20:11

This is unlike the moral laws used to govern the whole world . but rather to govern ceremonies as shadows.

Again different reasons both pointing to the same gospel... the creating of new creatures .

And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. Deuteronomy 5: 5
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,157
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#55
Both descriptions of the Seventh Day are perfectly valid, but the third is the one we are now free to follow, for the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. This not only means Jesus, it refers to you and to me.

The Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around, and it was given us as a gift fromt he Father. It is much more than a day it is the coming rein of peace, a gift.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,203
2,711
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#56
........meanwhile.......back to works.......which everyone LOVES to discuss.......

I'm just wondering WHY God had the Holy Spirit impart GIFTS to all of His children? Don'tcha think He intended for His children to USE those gifts? If so, is using a Holy Spirit given gift WORKS SALVATION?

Hmm.............

If God saved us for a purpose...........and we are obedient to that purpose............is THAT works salvation?

Hmm............

Inquiring minds wanna know dis sutffs.......

'Cause my KJV is full of folks who God sent out to do bunches and bunches of stuffies......shoot, He had 'em working all the live long day, and sometimes into da night! Goodness....... is THAT works salvation?


Me n David wuz dancing for our salvation?

dancing-elephant-animation.gif
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,807
1,057
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#57
Something else that is interesting. In Hebrews 4:9, we read - "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

Sabbatarians will argue that this refers to the weekly Sabbath, yet the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used here and no where else in the Bible! Amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else in the Bible! W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary proves the Sabbatarian argument wrong.

SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into Divine rest, that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (y)

I would agree the word week was added .There was no Greek word for week when the Bible was written . The word sabbath simply means rest. It is not a time sensitive word in any way shape or form.

Althogh I do use the KJV its one place they have turned the meaning upside down most like to provide a works righteousness program as "self edification".

Matthew 28 King James Version (KJV) 28 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.

And more proper translation would be the Youngs literal translation there are others.

there we receive the idea of the new era of sabbaths the first day of the wekk the day God said let their be children of light

Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulcher,

with thepasage below it would seem even the YLT follows after a works righteousness gospel. somehow not reconciling the meaning of the word sabbath .

He was simply brining a false boast. (a one upper on his fellow worshippers )

At the time scripture was written the apostate Jew had changed the fast from one meal cooked the day before to three meal on the Sabbath just as they added a Sabbaths day walk.... resisting the work of the gospel .And many other so called as oral traditions of men, as Kosher.

Note....(Purple in parenthsis) my added comment as the right translation that flows with the context .

Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week,(sabbath ) I give tithes of all things -- as many as I possess.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
533
113
#58
But this post isn't questioning scripture. Scripture is very very clear that about how salvation happens to us, and it is very clear about the walk we are to make as saved people. No one questions that.

What is addressed by this post is the accusations made against people who accuse any post about our walk AFTER we are saved as a works religion.
There's a common thread in all of it. The fact being ignored is, we don't work to stay saved. Period!

While there is that which argues we have to work to stay saved or find ourselves approved to be with God in Heaven once we're judged. And those who call us Jew-wannabe's, "Judaizers", when we recollect the scriptures concerning the Sabbath.

The commonality is those positions taken are holding the common ground of being anti-Christ. Anti-Salvation. Anti-Christian. Anti-Scripture. Anti-God.

The disguise of arguing on behalf of scripture so as to argue against scripture is unmistakable. As is the willful intent to ignore the truth of the words of God and propagate again and again the "Anti" factor that intends to assail the words of God , the practice of the faith, and the holy spirit indwelt Christians.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
397
83
#59
No excuse, it was a short post by you and I did not use my text to voice apparatus, and I read it completely backwards…....You do not have to forgive me, caue I will probably do it again here and there….God bless you always……….j
How about if I shout, scream, jump up and down yelling obsceneties, then have a hissy fit. Would that be OK?
ROFL
No harm done!!!
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
533
113
#60
How about if I shout, scream, jump up and down yelling obsceneties, then have a hissy fit. Would that be OK?
ROFL
....
I have to admit, I'd pay real money to see a YT video of that one. ;)