Simple Question...No Simple Answer

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Dec 9, 2011
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SO one does not have to do obedient works in doing God's will to be saved? One can remain disobedient and rebel against God's will and God will save him anyway?
Hello SeaBass
John 3:16 says whosoever believes and it does not say anything about doing works do you agree?

Before you quote the scripture from james please realize james was talking to men about if they really had faith it would show in the way they lived...you know --living epistles.

But GOD is a discerner of thoughts and intentions of the heart and would not need to see physical work...
I hope you can understand what I am saying here.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry.
He asked me, “
Son of man, can these bones live?


I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”


(Ezekiel 37:2-3)
 
Jan 19, 2013
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SolidGround said:
God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
You are suggesting that God created people for the sole purpose of burning in hell. What kind of God is that,
You are confused.

SolidGround is suggesting nothing.

You disagree with what Paul states?

why preach the Gospel if it has been preordained who will be saved and who will not.
Because it also has been preordained that the predestnied will be saved in hearing the gospel.

It makes no since,
Major error. . .judging the word of God by human reason.

I meant why spend the billions of dollars to
preach the Gospel if it is already ordained. Why would Jesus say to the disciples preach the gospel to the ends of the Earth. I meant why?
It's not complicated.

It makes sense because God has preordained that the predestined are saved by hearing the gospel.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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First thing they need to do is fire their preacher, he is not needed,
nothing he preaches will change a thing (according to him)
Correct, the preacher will not change a thing, however the predestined will be saved in hearing the word of God he preaches.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NKJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

All men are called, but not all will hear their calling, if God preordained some to be lost then God is culpable of their loss.
God commanded Pharaoh to let his people go.

Did God desire Pharaoh to obey, and also harden his heart so he could not?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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I guess you did not see God concluded all under sin....
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

notice he did not say ...shall all be made righteous....all men are offered life not all will accept
"Came upon" is not in the Greek text.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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SolidGround said:
I think the issue is that the Bible teaches that works do not save, and that without faith, righteous works are not possible.
Both Paul and James say obedient works justify>saves, James 2:24; Rom 6:17,18.
James says works justify faith, Paul says faith justifies (to) salvation.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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Faith alone if true, means one would NEVER EVER have to do ANY works to be saved for he is saved by FAITH ALONE/no works.
Faith alone saves, but faith is never alone.

It's not complicated.

Elin alone cooks Thanksgiving dinner, but Elin is never alone.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Faith alone saves, but faith is never alone.

It's not complicated.

Elin alone cooks Thanksgiving dinner, but Elin is never alone.
you have two false statement....
that is pure garbage....we are saved by grace through faith....where is faith alone in that...? faith without works is dead ...there is faith alone ....and it looks pretty dead to me...you put the quote of Calvin against the quote of James and Paul....I stand with James and Paul...
 
Nov 10, 2014
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Those that follow the man-made teaching of FAITH ONLY have said many times a saving faith WILL produce works.



Simple question:

If a man has faith but his faith produces NO works, will his FAITH ONLY save him anyway?


No simple answer:

If the faith only advocate answers "no" then he is refuting his own belief that FAITH ONLY saves.

If the faith only advocate answers "yes" then he is refuting his own statement that a saving faith WILL produce works and conflicting Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.



[It also conflicts Lk 13:3,5 that one must repent to be saved, Mt 10:32,33 and Rom 10:9,10 one must confess to be saved and Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 one must be baptized...will FAITH ONLY save one that will not repent, will not confess Christ and who is lost in his unforgiven sins anyway?]
what is a good work?
 
Nov 10, 2014
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Man is saved through FAITH THAT TRUSTS ONLY IN CHRIST FOR SALVATION AND NOT IN WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9). Not to be confused with faith that ONLY CLAIMS TO BE GENUINE BUT DEMONSTRATES BY THE LACK OF WORKS THAT IT'S DEAD (James 2:14-20). Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. Will you ever understand this?

A man actually has faith but has no works = Oxymoron. James 2:14 - Claims/says he has faith but has no works. That is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. That's why it won't save.

Faith that trusts ONLY in Christ for salvation saves. Faith that ONLY claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead does not save. There is your simple answer that ONLY genuine believers will clearly grasp.

It's not that faith must produce works in order to become genuine but faith will produce works if it is genuine. Ephesians 2:10 says that we are saved FOR good works, NOT by good works. You have it backwards. When you hear a genuine believer say that we are saved through "faith IN CHRIST alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that remains alone "barren of works". Saving faith results in producing good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's the faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation part of the equation that "alone" is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but they are not the means of our salvation. Christ's finished work of redemption is the all sufficient means of our salvation. No supplements needed.

No conflict at all. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe the gospel and become saved.

It's not must confess but will. In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the way of salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety.

In Romans 10:9,10 - Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth he confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. 1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that must be said as an additional requirement to become saved after faith is not unto salvation.

Not must but will, unless one is unable to be because they are on their death bed, like the thief on the cross. Condemnation is the result of a lack of belief (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18) not a lack of baptism. Faith "implied in repentance" is unto the remission of sins (Acts 3:19; 11:17,18) and baptism is parenthetical.

No, because that is NOT GENUINE FAITH. Those with genuine faith have already repented and confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and will confess Christ to others. FAITH ONLY per James is an empty profession of faith, not genuine faith.
what is a good work; and how many do you need?
 
Nov 10, 2014
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You gave no simple "yes" or 'no' answer but what you post above appears you answer my question with a "no". So you are saying faith alone does not save.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…

?
 
Nov 10, 2014
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Here you say "yes" faith alone will save. Earlier you posted "good works next".

So if one can be saved by faith alone and NEVER do good works, yet that violates your "good works next" and Eph 2:10 that says the Christian must do good works.
never do good works?
what is a good work?
use scripture.
 
Nov 10, 2014
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This verse, Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

It's not possible to be a Chrisitan and NOT do good works.
So does the man-made teaching of faith only over-ride Eph 2:10?
list the good works God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
Nov 10, 2014
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You already posted "Faith that ONLY claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead does not save."

You say here faith that lacks works is DEAD.

Now above you say Faith only saves.

A simple yes or no would cut it. Too many faith only advocates are trying to straddle the fence.

It was stated in another thread "faith alone saves but faith that saves is never alone"

Pure contradiction for faith cannot be alone and not alone at the same time. I demonstrated where you have already said faith that lacks works is dead but then say faith alone saves. You have faith alone going from being dead to saving.

On one hand you say faith alone in Christ for salvation but then say faith alone (barren of works) is dead. A contradiction, straddling the fence. So does faith alone save or is it dead being barren of works?


Faith alone means just that- faith and NOTHING else. Cannot be faith and good works for that is not faith and NOTHING else.
do you mean someone claiming to have faith but only ever does evil works?
 
Nov 10, 2014
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I hear what you say. you said one is saved by faith alone then does good works.

I am asking you what if one who has faith but does NOT do good works can then his faith alone save him?
what is a good work?
is "one" enough?

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’


“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”


The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”


Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
 
Mar 28, 2014
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James says works justify faith, Paul says faith justifies (to) salvation.
James did not say that,,,
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. ( a man is Justified by faith with works)

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (a man is justified by faith) not by works of the law
 
Nov 10, 2014
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James did not say that,,,
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
simple.
YOU see works and this can help YOU determine the man is justified by faith.
what is a good work and how many do you need?