Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,"

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Making Disciples
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matt. 28: 18- 20) NASB
IMO, Jesus instructed His disciples to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and by teaching them to observe all that I commanded you.

Getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded is not what makes one become a disciple (just as getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded does not make one become a child of God. (But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. - John 1:12. No further requirements are necessary to become a child of God). Those who have chosen to become a disciple, a learner, pupil, follower of Christ get water baptized and observe all that Christ has commanded. You have non-disciples of Christ (those who are not learners, pupils, followers of Christ) getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded "in order to become" a disciple of Christ. So who are these believers following by getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded if it's not Christ? Although getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded is a part of discipleship, believers have chosen to become disciples (learners, pupils, followers of Christ) prior to getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded. You should understand the difference.

Mailmandan replied that I was wrong, disciples are made first (when one comes to faith?) and then they are baptized and taught.

One has chosen to become a disciple, learner, pupil, follower of Christ first (when one comes to faith) and then they are baptized and observe all that Christ has commanded. Why would a non-disciple of Christ even bother to get water baptized or observe all that Christ has commanded if they have not yet chosen to become a disciple, learner, pupil, follower of Christ? You are forced to twist Matthew 28:19 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation in order to accommodate your biased doctrine, yet the same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded, yet you have a person saved at the moment of baptism. Your theology is full of holes.

These verses say nothing about making disciples by faith although I am certainly not denying that faith is involved in the process.

Water baptism has no power to make someone choose to become a disciple of Christ. That is a heart decision made prior to becoming water baptized when one receives Christ through faith. What follows is discipleship, not to be confused with initially choosing to become a disciple of Christ the moment that we have been saved through faith in Christ.

Sometimes faith is not the primary emphasis even though it is implied from other Scriptures.

Faith is the primary emphasis in many many passages of Scripture. So if the Bible says that we are saved through faith, then we are saved through faith, not faith and water baptism or faith and works (Ephesians 2:8,9). You try to "shoe horn" water and works "into" faith in order to try and "force" the Bible "conform" to your theology.

The context of the verses in the NASB translation leads one to believe that baptizing and teaching are the means by which disciples are made, and of course, though not mentioned, this is through faith. No other factors are mentioned.

How can one become a disciple by getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded if a disciple is a learner, pupil, follower of Christ? Who is the believer a learner of, a pupil of, a follower of while they are getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded if it's not Christ? Is someone who attends high school a learner, a pupil or do they have to wait until they graduate from high school in order to become a learner, pupil?

Dr. Daniel B. Wallace in his Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics, pg. 645, comments about these verses, “Finally the other two participles (Baptizontes, didaskontes) should not be taken at attendant circumstance. First, they do not fit the normal pattern for attendant circumstance participles (they are present tense and follow the main verb). And second, they obviously make good sense as participles of means i.e. the means by which the disciples were to make disciples was to baptize and then to teach.”

Again, believers don't get water baptized and observe all that Christ has commanded in order to initially become a disciple, a learner, a pupil, a follower of Christ but BECAUSE they have chosen to become a disciple, learner, pupil, follower of Christ. Daniel Wallace surely understands the difference and is not suggesting that non-disciples of Christ get water baptized and observe all that Christ has commanded in order to initially become a disciple of Christ, but is referring to being trained, instructed in discipleship. Making disciples is not just about people initially choosing to become a disciple but is also helping them to progressively learn the Word of God and to become a matured, growing disciple. In the latter sense, I have no problem with what Daniel Wallace said.

Conclusion: Disciples are made when by faith they are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and when by faith they are taught to observe all things commanded by our Lord. God bless.

We get water baptized by or "out of faith" not faith is baptism. So faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. I see that you are still suggesting that non-disciples, not-learners, non-pupils, non-followers of Christ get water baptized and observe all that Christ has commanded in order to initially become a disciple, a learner, a pupil, a follower of Christ, which makes so sense at all. Conclusion: Believers get water baptized and observe all that Christ has commanded BECAUSE they have chosen to become a disciple, a learner, a pupil, a follower of Christ. So getting water baptized and observing all that Christ has commanded in relation to making disciples is in regards to being instructed in discipleship, not initially becoming a disciple of Christ.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. (Gal. 5: 6)

We are saved through faith FIRST and then our faith works through love. This does not mean that we are saved through faith "plus acts of love/good works" but we are saved UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10). Love is the character of faith. Why does faith work through love? Romans 5:5 - ..because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Not because we conjure it up through the flesh. 1 John 4:19 - We love because He first loved us.

It's time for you to repent and believe the gospel. You need to quit trusting in "water and works" for salvation and trust exclusively in Christ for salvation. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

 

[james57]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Making Disciples
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matt. 28: 18- 20) NASB
IMO, Jesus instructed His disciples to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and by teaching them to observe all that I commanded you. Mailmandan replied that I was wrong, disciples are made first (when one comes to faith?) and then they are baptized and taught. These verses say nothing about making disciples by faith although I am certainly not denying that faith is involved in the process. Sometimes faith is not the primary emphasis even though it is implied from other Scriptures. The context of the verses in the NASB translation leads one to believe that baptizing and teaching are the means by which disciples are made, and of course, though not mentioned, this is through faith. No other factors are mentioned.
Dr. Daniel B. Wallace in his Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics, pg. 645, comments about these verses, “Finally the other two participles (Baptizontes, didaskontes) should not be taken at attendant circumstance. First, they do not fit the normal pattern for attendant circumstance participles (they are present tense and follow the main verb). And second, they obviously make good sense as participles of means i.e. the means by which the disciples were to make disciples was to baptize and then to teach.”
Conclusion: Disciples are made when by faith they are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and when by faith they are taught to observe all things commanded by our Lord. God bless.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. (Gal. 5: 6)

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them(those already disciples) in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matt. 28: 18- 20) NASB

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2:21) NASB Many on this forum tell us that salvation is by grace through faith alone yet here we have a factor that saves.

Calling on the name of the Lord is not an additional factor that comes after faith in order to be saved. Otherwise, faith would not be enough to save, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8.

To resolve their problem they claim that calling on the name of the Lord has to do with coming to faith yet the following verses tell us that faith precedes calling on the name of the Lord

Genuine believers have no problem with understanding what it means to call on the name of the Lord, yet works salvationists do.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” [SUP]14 [/SUP]How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (Rom. 10: 13, 14) NASB

The logic of these verses is clear. (1) People will call on Jesus to save them only if they believe He can do so. (2) belief in Christ cannot exist without knowledge about Him. (3) one hears about Christ when someone proclaims the saving message. (4) the message of Christ will not be proclaimed unless someone is sent by God to do so. We must first believe "mental assent" in the person and historical facts about Jesus before we can call on the name of the Lord and believe (trust, rely) in Him alone for salvation (saving belief). "Mental assent" belief precedes (belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation) saving belief. You have trouble understanding the distinction because the church of Christ teaches that ALL belief is the same (except for the lack of works) and cannot grasp a DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works" instead of CHRIST ALONE.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name. (Acts 22: 16) NASB This verse tells us that calling on the name of the Lord has to do with baptism and the forgiveness of sins, not coming to faith. If that is true, what are we asking for when we are baptized, calling on His name?

It only "on the surface" appears to tell us that. The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ's name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord. This "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Water baptism does not wash the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ. Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT). The thief on the cross was saved when he called on the name of the Lord in faith - "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (Luke 23:43) *The thief was not even water baptized.* As I explained to you before, no Scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 3: 21) NASB This verse tells us that when we are baptized, we are calling on the name of the Lord, appealing to God to give us a good conscience—forgiveness of our sins—as He has promised to do. (Acts 2: 38, 39)

That is not what this verse tells us, but that's what you so desperately want to hear. Notice that Peter made a clear distinction between "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" and "an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." By saying, "NOT the removal of dirt from the flesh, BUT an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21, it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-a-good-conscience". Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

Friends, if we are believers, we need to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, calling on His name, for the forgiveness of sin.

Genuine believers (those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation) have already repented when they changed their minds and chose to place their faith in Christ alone for salvation. Those who merely believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ BUT HAVE NOT YET CHOSEN TO PLACE THEIR FAITH (BELIEF, TRUST, RELIANCE) IN CHRIST (ALONE) FOR SALVATION are not yet believers in regards to receiving salvation. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ. Acts 20:21 - ..repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

When we do, we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1: 2; Heb. 9: 14; 10: 22), cleansing us from sin, and given the gift of the Holy Spirit for regeneration and renewal.

You remain confused. Hebrews 10:22 in the NASB reads - let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. *Notice the order. Reference to this verse as proving regeneration, or the new birth, by water baptism ignores the point of the contrasting of that sprinkling which affects the heart, removing from it an evil conscience, and that washing of the body with pure water. It is the sprinkling (with the Blood of Christ- Hebrews 9:14; I Peter 1:2) which touches the heart. The washing of pure water affects the body. Paul was careful to distinguish between an outward holiness or circumcision, which was of the flesh (Romans 2:28-29) and an inward holiness, which was of the heart. The true Jew, the true child of Abraham (and therefore the true Christian) has the inward circumcision of the heart, not only the outward, and this is accomplished by the "sprinkling of the blood of Christ" (I Peter 1:2), not by a washing in water in the ordinance of water baptism. Even Peter said - "not the removal of the dirt from the flesh" but the answer of a good conscience toward God. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21). The writer of Hebrews shows us that no outward ceremony affects the heart (Hebrews 9:13ff.). He would not, and does not contradict himself here by teaching that the washing of the body in water accomplishes an inward cleansing. The former is inward and spiritual, "of the heart" (Romans 2:28-29), and the latter is outward and physical, or "of the flesh" (Romans 2:28-29). The washing of the body in pure water does not present baptism as the means of the cleansing or purifying of the heart. The sprinkling with the Blood of Christ is, and washing our bodies with water is expressly distinguished from sprinkling with the Blood of Christ. Since water baptism is not the means of purifying the heart from sin, it is not the means of regeneration, and it is not absolutely necessary for salvation.

Yes, my friends we are saved by the grace of God through faith, when that faith obeys by repentance and baptism, calling on the name of the Lord. God bless.

Notice how you have "added" the words "when that faith obeyed by repentance and baptism, calling on the name of the Lord" to Ephesians 2:8, which simply says - For by grace you have been saved through faith. Repentance and calling on the name of the Lord precedes "saved through faith" and water baptism FOLLOWS salvation through believes in Him/faith (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31).

It's time for you to repent and believe the gospel. You need to quit trusting in "water and works" for salvation and trust exclusively in Christ for salvation. ​Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Sonship
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27) NASB
Some posters on this forum say that we are children by faith in Christ Jesus. Period! End of sentence and thought. Friends that is not candid. The very next sentence begins with the preposition “for”, connecting the two sentences and their thought together. If you follow this thread, you know who they are. By so doing they identify themselves as agenda keepers, not truth seekers. Yes, we are children of God by faith in Jesus Christ because when by faith we are baptized into Christ, God clothes us with the attributes of Christ which include righteousness, life and sonship.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, [SUP]13 [/SUP]who were born (begotten), not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 12, 13) NASB
When we receive Christ by believing in His name, we do not simultaneously become children of God, but we are begotten by God. In the natural realm sonship comes some nine months later. In the spiritual realm, those that are begotten by God, are given the right to become children of God. Yes, we have something to do with the spiritual birth. The two realms have similarities and we can learn from those similarities, but the two realms are not identical. The word is implanted in our hearts (James 1: 21) but we are not yet united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection; that happens by faith when we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus our Lord for the forgiveness of our sins. (Acts 2: 38, 39; Rom. 6: 3-7)
As we deny ourselves, may God open our hearts to respond to the gospel in faith and love. God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Sonship
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27) NASB
Some posters on this forum say that we are children by faith in Christ Jesus. Period! End of sentence and thought.

Paul clearly said that we are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (.) PERIOD! End of sentence and thought on how we become children of God. Next sentence, next thought - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourselves with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses.

So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.

"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on (endue) the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well (Romans 13:14). Right? NO. *This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). *Written to those ALREADY SAVED.

The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on a uniform, he is revealing himself to be a soldier and putting on what he has previously been qualified to wear. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform does not make one become a soldier. Once one is made a soldier he is then able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare their qualifications.

So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they have previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it, as in Romans 13:14.

*If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith)​, then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.

Friends that is not candid. The very next sentence begins with the preposition “for”, connecting the two sentences and their thought together.

I see that you are still fighting the truth. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus(.) PERIOD! *Not faith and water baptism.

If you follow this thread, you know who they are. By so doing they identify themselves as agenda keepers, not truth seekers.

That statement is the epitome of irony and you are not fooling any genuine born again believers on Christian Chat.

Yes, we are children of God by faith in Jesus Christ because when by faith we are baptized into Christ, God clothes us with the attributes of Christ which include righteousness, life and sonship.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordancearray, clothe with, endue, put on. From en and duno (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively) -- array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on. You are confusing receiving His imputed righteousness, life and sonship when we receive Christ through faith with putting on Christ. Paul clearly said we are children of God BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS(.) PERIOD! Yet you "add" the words "when by faith we are baptized into Christ" which is absolutely NOT what Paul said in Galatians 3:26. You need to be honest with the text.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, [SUP]13 [/SUP]who were born (begotten), not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1: 12, 13) NASB
When we receive Christ by believing in His name, we do not simultaneously become children of God, but we are begotten by God.

When we we receive Christ by believing in His name, we DO simultaneously become children of God (right TO BECOME children of God) which means we actually DO become children of God when we believe in His name. To be born (begotten) of God is to be a child of God, yet once again, you deny the truth for the sake of your biased church doctrine.

In the natural realm sonship comes some nine months later. In the spiritual realm, those that are begotten by God, are given the right to become children of God. Yes, we have something to do with the spiritual birth. The two realms have similarities and we can learn from those similarities, but the two realms are not identical.

From the moment that we are born again, it does not take nine more months to actually become a child of God so you are basing your arguments on faulty human logic. The natural man is spiritually discerned and does not understand.

The word is implanted in our hearts (James 1: 21) but we are not yet united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection; that happens by faith when we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus our Lord for the forgiveness of our sins. (Acts 2: 38, 39; Rom. 6: 3-7)

Water baptism is the PICTURE, but not the reality. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In regards to Romans 6:3-7, the allusion is to the SYMBOLISM of baptism which was the OUTWARD SIGN of the separation. Baptized into water is not the same as being baptized into the body of Christ. Water baptism as a picture of death, burial and resurrection symbolizes our likeness to Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. One is the picture or likeness of the other. Water baptism is not the reality but only a picture of the reality. We are mystically placed into the body of Christ when we believe the gospel, and this is when we are placed into the body of Christ through Spirit baptism, not water baptism (Acts 11:17; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

As we deny ourselves, may God open our hearts to respond to the gospel in faith and love. God bless.

May God open your heart to respond to the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). You are teaching a "different" gospel of "water and works" salvation. It's time for you to repent and believe the gospel. You need to quit trusting in "water and works" for salvation and trust exclusively in Christ for salvation. ​Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

 

[weakness]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Salvation by faith alone
“First, it is quite clear from such passages as Acts 15 and Romans 4 that no external act is necessary for salvation. Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone (Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9, etc.)” John MacArthur- Blog- Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation
Mr. MacArthur gives one view of faith that is common in the Protestant community and common on this forum: Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone. (Eph. 2: 8, 9)
(1) None of the references he cites state that salvation is by grace through faith alone because there are none in the Bible. Many verses state that salvation is through faith; there are no verses that state that salvation is by faith alone. The only verse to speak of faith alone states, “You see a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.” (James 2: 24)
(2) The idea that salvation is by faith alone appears to be made on the assumption that the works of Eph. 2: 9 includes all works. But there are a number of works of faith that lead to salvation, that occur following faith and prior to salvation. These include calling on the name of the Lord. repentance, baptism, confessing the name of Jesus before men, obedience and the washing of regeneration. (Acts 2: 21; 2 Cor. 7: 10; Mark 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 21; Rom. 10; 10; Heb. 5: 9; Titus 3: 5)
(3) In addition faith, hope and love abide together at the present time, the greatest of these is love. (1 Cor. 13: 13) All of these factors are essential to salvation and eternal life. (John 5: 24. 1 John 3: 14; James 1: 12; Rom. 8: 24)
(4) Faith without love is meaningless (1 Cor. 13: 2) and faith without works is dead and useless. (James 2: 14, 17, 20)
(5) The “salvation by faith alone” doctrine is incompatible with Acts 2: 38. However this passage is quite compatible with salvation by faith. For by faith we repent and are baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and we are promised the gift of the Holy Spirit. God bless.

​ Scripture also says John's baptism is to prepare the way of the lord. The high will be made low, the rough smooth, the crooked straight. And talks about fruit worthy of repentance. Also speaks of baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Scripture speaks of being born again and baptism of the Spirit as a separate thing from John's water baptism. Water baptism was really the last thing of the old testament, After Jesus speaks of the kingdom of God being preached, not that the OT is done away or anything.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD
‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Acts 2:21) NASB Many on this forum tell us that salvation is by grace through faith alone yet here we have a factor that saves. To resolve their problem they claim that calling on the name of the Lord has to do with coming to faith yet the following verses tell us that faith precedes calling on the name of the Lord
[SUP]13 [/SUP]for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” [SUP]14 [/SUP]How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? (Rom. 10: 13, 14)

Calling on the name of the Lord is not an additional factor that comes after faith in order to be saved. Otherwise, faith would not be enough to save, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8.

The logic of these verses is clear. (1) People will call on Jesus to save them only if they believe He can do so. (2) belief in Christ cannot exist without knowledge about Him. (3) one hears about Christ when someone proclaims the saving message. (4) the message of Christ will not be proclaimed unless someone is sent by God to do so. We must first believe "mental assent" in the person and historical facts about Jesus before we can call on the name of the Lord and believe (trust, rely) in Him alone for salvation (saving belief). "Mental assent" belief precedes (belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation) saving belief. You have trouble understanding the distinction because the church of Christ teaches that ALL belief is the same (except for the lack of works) and cannot grasp a DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ alone.

Thanks mailman Dan
I understand better now when the bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD.

 

[Dude653]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Praise the Lord. Jesus said in John 3.5, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Notice through the book of Acts how baptism in Jesus' name, and the filling, or baptism of the Holy Ghost is mentioned together, which would refer to Jesus' water and the Spirit .....

this conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus,if you read it in its context, it is apparent that Jesus is not talking about water baptism but rather birth from the mother's womb. notice how he mentioned born of water first and then spirit. if he was talking about water baptism,then why would he mention it first? ,Being reborn of spirit comes before the water baptism.
this would be putting the proverbial cart before the horse. many believe that Jesus Christ was referring to water baptism here but this is a common misconception

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

The Promise
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (Acts 2: 38, 39) NASB
This promise was made to about three thousand Jews who heard Peter’s message in Jerusalem on the first Pentecost after the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of our Lord into heaven. IMO they believed that God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom they were complicit in crucifying. Their belief was demonstrated by the fact that they were pieced to the heart and asked, “Brethren, what shall we do”?
Were they forgiven at the first moment of faith? No, they were cleansed by faith when they obeyed the command to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. They were still in sin when the command was given. Their faith worked with repentance and baptism to bring about forgiveness. (James 2: 22)
Were they sprinkled with the blood of Christ at the first minute of faith? No, they were sprinkled with the blood of Christ when they obeyed Jesus Christ by repenting and being baptized. (1 Peter 1: 2; Heb. 9: 14; 10: 22)
Did they receive eternal life at the first moment of faith? No, all spiritual blessings, including eternal life are in Christ (Eph. 1: 3; 1 John 5: 10, 11), and they were baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3: 26, 27) Life is given by the Spirit they were to receive (John 4: 14; 6: 63) at baptism.
Were they born again at the first moment of faith? The new birth is a birth from both water and Spirit (John 3: 5). They could not be born again until they were baptized in water in the name of Christ and immersed in the Spirit which was given to them. When they came forth from that experience they were born again,
Did they become children of God at the first moment of faith? No, those that receive Christ by believing in His name are begotten by God and they are given the right to become children of God. (John 1: 12, 13) Faith works through baptism to become children of God. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)
Were they saved at the first moment of faith? No, the record says nothing about salvation at that time. Jesus said that he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16: 15, 16) Secondly, they were not saved until they had repented. Repentance leads to salvation. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Were they “in Christ” at the first moment of faith. No, by faith they were baptized into Christ as all are. (Rom6: 3; Gal. 3: 26, 27)
Did they receive the Holy Spirit at the first moment of faith? No, they received the Holy Spirit when they were baptized into Christ. (Acts 2: 38, 39) The reception of the Holy Spirit is normally, as in this case, contingent upon repentance and the baptism in water into Christ. (Acts 5: 32)
Did their repentance precede coming to faith? No, they were commanded to repent and be baptized after they believed. (Acts 2: 38) According to the Scriptures, repentance is produced by sorrow but if repentance comes before faith clearly that sorrow is not of faith and if it is not of faith then it is not according to the will of God. That sorrow is a worldly sorrow that leads to regret and ultimately death. The three thousand had a godly sorrow, they were pierced to the heart, that leads to salvation.
Were they baptized because they had been saved? No, according to Jesus they were saved because they believed and were baptized. (Mark 16: 15, 16)
Why is this model of conversion important for us today? This model is normative, it is for all both Jew and Gentile, as many as God shall call to Himself. (Acts 2: 39) The forthright person can see that the “faith alone” doctrine is a tangled web of deception which is riddled with inconsistencies.
Friends, Jesus tasted death for everyone, the Holy Spirit did not (Heb. 2: 8, 90; Jesus died for our sins, not the Spirit (1 Cor. 13: 3); Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, not the Spirit (1 John 2: 2). This is not said to diminish the Spirit in any way. God forbid! But we are not cleansed by the Spirit, we are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb and since baptism in water in the name of Christ is symbolic of that event, the Scriptures speak of having our sins washed away in baptism. We need both Jesus and the Spirit and we need the baptism into Christ and the baptism with the Spirit, that is the one baptism. The baptism in water, into Christ is not a “picture” of the “real” baptism, the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This idea is fictional, an invention of men, who are well meaning, but terribly deceived. The baptism into Christ is a baptism into the death of Christ and a baptism into the death of our old self. (Rom. 6: 3-7) It is about forgiveness and identifying with Christ and entering into Christ. On the other hand the baptism with the Holy Spirit is about life, regeneration and renewal. We need them both; they are about different aspects of the one baptism. God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

The Model Conversion
If the conversion of three thousand Jews on the first Pentecost after the resurrection of our Lord is a model for all men for all time, we must ask, what do we learn? Perhaps surprisingly we learn that the overall emphasis is about the reception of the Holy Spirit and its connection to salvation.
We learn that Jesus, who was made Lord and Christ, having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit poured forth that which was both seen and head. The Holy Spirit was poured forth for all mankind on that first Pentecost.
We learn that the Holy Spirit is individually appropriated by calling upon the name of the Lord through repentance and baptism, and also that we are saved by so doing. (Acts 2: 21; 2: 38, 39)
We learn that we call upon the name of the Lord by repentance which was proclaimed in the name of the Lord for forgiveness (Luke 24: 47; Acts 2: 38, 39) and by baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for forgiveness also. (Matt. 28: 18- 20) There is no indication that the three thousand prayed for faith or salvation; the context limits the calling upon the name of the Lord to repentance and baptism.
We learn that those, the apostles, who had the Holy Spirit poured forth upon them, are baptized with the Spirit. Peter said “this”, the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1: 5), is “that”, the pouring out of the Spirit as prophesied by Joel. (Acts 2: 17) Jesus pours out the Holy Spirit richly and abundantly (Titus 3: 5, 6) and without measure (John 3: 24) so that the recipient is immersed in the Spirit.
We learn that all who received the word through faith were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2: 41) Baptism, the washing with water (Acts 22: 16; Eph. 5: 26), symbolizes the washing with the blood of Christ. (Rev. 1: 5; 7: 14)
We learn that faith works through repentance and baptism to accomplish the forgiveness of sin (James 2: 22). When we by faith obey God, we are sprinkled with the blood of Jesus our Lord (1 Peter 1: 2; Heb. 10: 22; 9: 14)
We learn that the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit is to all men and women, Jew and Gentile, as many as the Lord shall call to Himself. (Acts 2: 38, 39) Therefore we conclude that all who have the Holy Spirit poured forth upon them are also baptized with the Holy Spirit just like the apostles and later, just as Cornelius and his household.
We learn that to believe is an inclusive term (Acts 2: 44), including not only the assent to the truth of certain propositions about God but also the faith without love is nothing (1 Cor. 13: 2) and faith without obedience, works of faith, is dead and useless (James 2: 17, 20)
We learn that the three thousand indeed were saved and were added to the number of the saved. (Acts 2: 41, 47)
We learn the normal order of events that leads to salvation. Hear the gospel—Believe—Godly sorrow—Repentance—Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ—The gift of the Holy Spirit--Salvation
We learn that contrary to the opinion of many, God does require obedience to His commandments, to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Thus when the Scriptures speak of the five thousand who believed in Acts 4: 4, we should not assume that this is a ‘faith only” scenario because we have learned from the model conversion that all who believed were baptized (Acts 2: 41) and they were also commanded to repent (Acts 2: 38) as are all men everywhere. (Acts 17: 30) Friends, the model conversion is consistent with all of the other conversions in the book of Acts. On one occasion, the Samaritans, events are delayed and with Cornelius the order of events was changed by God to accomplish His purpose of bringing in the Gentiles. And the model conversion is consistent with the theology of salvation that is found in Ephesians 2: 8-10. God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

The Promise
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (Acts 2: 38, 39) NASB
This promise was made to about three thousand Jews who heard Peter’s message in Jerusalem on the first Pentecost after the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of our Lord into heaven. IMO they believed that God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom they were complicit in crucifying. Their belief was demonstrated by the fact that they were pieced to the heart and asked, “Brethren, what shall we do”?
Were they forgiven at the first moment of faith? No, they were cleansed by faith when they obeyed the command to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. They were still in sin when the command was given. Their faith worked with repentance and baptism to bring about forgiveness. (James 2: 22)
Were they sprinkled with the blood of Christ at the first minute of faith? No, they were sprinkled with the blood of Christ when they obeyed Jesus Christ by repenting and being baptized. (1 Peter 1: 2; Heb. 9: 14; 10: 22)
Did they receive eternal life at the first moment of faith? No, all spiritual blessings, including eternal life are in Christ (Eph. 1: 3; 1 John 5: 10, 11), and they were baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3: 26, 27) Life is given by the Spirit they were to receive (John 4: 14; 6: 63) at baptism.
Were they born again at the first moment of faith? The new birth is a birth from both water and Spirit (John 3: 5). They could not be born again until they were baptized in water in the name of Christ and immersed in the Spirit which was given to them. When they came forth from that experience they were born again,
Did they become children of God at the first moment of faith? No, those that receive Christ by believing in His name are begotten by God and they are given the right to become children of God. (John 1: 12, 13) Faith works through baptism to become children of God. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)
Were they saved at the first moment of faith? No, the record says nothing about salvation at that time. Jesus said that he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16: 15, 16) Secondly, they were not saved until they had repented. Repentance leads to salvation. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Were they “in Christ” at the first moment of faith. No, by faith they were baptized into Christ as all are. (Rom6: 3; Gal. 3: 26, 27)
Did they receive the Holy Spirit at the first moment of faith? No, they received the Holy Spirit when they were baptized into Christ. (Acts 2: 38, 39) The reception of the Holy Spirit is normally, as in this case, contingent upon repentance and the baptism in water into Christ. (Acts 5: 32)
Did their repentance precede coming to faith? No, they were commanded to repent and be baptized after they believed. (Acts 2: 38) According to the Scriptures, repentance is produced by sorrow but if repentance comes before faith clearly that sorrow is not of faith and if it is not of faith then it is not according to the will of God. That sorrow is a worldly sorrow that leads to regret and ultimately death. The three thousand had a godly sorrow, they were pierced to the heart, that leads to salvation.
Were they baptized because they had been saved? No, according to Jesus they were saved because they believed and were baptized. (Mark 16: 15, 16)
Why is this model of conversion important for us today? This model is normative, it is for all both Jew and Gentile, as many as God shall call to Himself. (Acts 2: 39) The forthright person can see that the “faith alone” doctrine is a tangled web of deception which is riddled with inconsistencies.
Friends, Jesus tasted death for everyone, the Holy Spirit did not (Heb. 2: 8, 90; Jesus died for our sins, not the Spirit (1 Cor. 13: 3); Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, not the Spirit (1 John 2: 2). This is not said to diminish the Spirit in any way. God forbid! But we are not cleansed by the Spirit, we are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb and since baptism in water in the name of Christ is symbolic of that event, the Scriptures speak of having our sins washed away in baptism. We need both Jesus and the Spirit and we need the baptism into Christ and the baptism with the Spirit, that is the one baptism. The baptism in water, into Christ is not a “picture” of the “real” baptism, the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This idea is fictional, an invention of men, who are well meaning, but terribly deceived. The baptism into Christ is a baptism into the death of Christ and a baptism into the death of our old self. (Rom. 6: 3-7) It is about forgiveness and identifying with Christ and entering into Christ. On the other hand the baptism with the Holy Spirit is about life, regeneration and renewal. We need them both; they are about different aspects of the one baptism. God bless.

You are repeating yourself like a broken record. All of your arguments that you continue to "parrot off" from articles written by Wayne Jackson have already been refuted numerous times. At 81 years old, it's still not too late for you to REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. I will continue to pray for you.