SINLESS PERFECTIONISTS - DO YOU MEASURE UP AGAINST THE BIBLICAL DESCRIPTIONS OF SIN?
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I was born into, and stayed in, a church that claimed sinless perfection -- soaked in it, buried in it, strangled by it. But the only way -- The Only Way -- to believe they were sinless was to close my eyes to reality, and I did that very well until I was @ 15. Then incident by incident, very, very slowly, my eyes started opening. The only way to believe anyone is sinless is to continually fool one's self.
Yes, I keep Sabbath and follow Torah as much as I can in this time, as do all those with whom I attend services, but not one of them claims, at any time, to have sinless perfection. It was, in fact, they who taught me and helped to bring me to an understanding that broke down my own fake, self-reliant righteousness. And when the understanding finally hit me, I had to work to keep my seat, and some semblance of decorum, to keep from falling on the floor in a puddle of repentant horror upon seeing my repugnant unrighteous, self-righteous self.
While I know I am a sinner, I hoped I could at least get somewhere into your list, but the third item, especially, stopped me in my happy little trail.
I am still learning about sin -- and which sins are especially in my own little list of personal failings.
And I am not, by any stretch, a Hank Hanegraaff fan.
Yes, I keep Sabbath and follow Torah as much as I can in this time, as do all those with whom I attend services, but not one of them claims, at any time, to have sinless perfection. It was, in fact, they who taught me and helped to bring me to an understanding that broke down my own fake, self-reliant righteousness. And when the understanding finally hit me, I had to work to keep my seat, and some semblance of decorum, to keep from falling on the floor in a puddle of repentant horror upon seeing my repugnant unrighteous, self-righteous self.
While I know I am a sinner, I hoped I could at least get somewhere into your list, but the third item, especially, stopped me in my happy little trail.
I am still learning about sin -- and which sins are especially in my own little list of personal failings.
And I am not, by any stretch, a Hank Hanegraaff fan.
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Nice; thanks for sharing that.
It seems we see that Paul states he was not yet perfect but gloss over the fact that he was pressing toward this mark and high calling of perfection;forgetting those things which are behind (his past mistakes), and reaching forth unto those things which are before(the high calling of God in Christ Jesus) and as many as be perfect (as in it is possible) would be thus minded.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:12-15 KJV)
It seems we see that Paul states he was not yet perfect but gloss over the fact that he was pressing toward this mark and high calling of perfection;forgetting those things which are behind (his past mistakes), and reaching forth unto those things which are before(the high calling of God in Christ Jesus) and as many as be perfect (as in it is possible) would be thus minded.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
(Php 3:12-15 KJV)
Hello Hizikyah my friend.
Please follow along.
.... if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another , and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
All means All. And incidentally we cannot walk in darkness and in light at the same time as verse 6 says.
Verse 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceiveourselves, and the truth is not in us.
The word sin here is a noun in the Greek; a state. Not a verb; which would be an action; sinning. We can have sin that has not yet been confessed and cleansed (set apart from us) but at the same time time has not been acted on either. For example; lusting after woman. We reach a point where we are not even lusting after them with our eyes; but the thought pops in our minds. Which would if not checked through confession take root and bear fruit unto death. If we assent that it is a sin and confess it before it bears fruit. GOD is faithful and will cleanse us from it as verse 9 says. This verse is being said in relation to verse 7. It does not say that we will or have sin until the day we die. Otherwise the statement," and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" Would be a lie making John a liar; which he is not.
9. If we confess our sins (the noun before it becomes a verb; an action), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and tocleanse us from all unrighteousness.
All means all.
10. If we say that we HAVE NOT sinned [this is the verb and is in the past tense] , we make him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Sinned here is a verb in the Greek. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD. That is why we need Jesus. Due to the sin that is in our being trying to be an action.
To even further emphasize this point John uses these same two Greek words again in the same letter. Here look:
1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin (verb) a sin (noun) which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Never loss Hope. Not that we will sin but if we do John says, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have a Helper toward the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jn 2:1 KJV)
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
(Php 3:12-14 KJV)
Please follow along.
.... if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another , and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
All means All. And incidentally we cannot walk in darkness and in light at the same time as verse 6 says.
Verse 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceiveourselves, and the truth is not in us.
The word sin here is a noun in the Greek; a state. Not a verb; which would be an action; sinning. We can have sin that has not yet been confessed and cleansed (set apart from us) but at the same time time has not been acted on either. For example; lusting after woman. We reach a point where we are not even lusting after them with our eyes; but the thought pops in our minds. Which would if not checked through confession take root and bear fruit unto death. If we assent that it is a sin and confess it before it bears fruit. GOD is faithful and will cleanse us from it as verse 9 says. This verse is being said in relation to verse 7. It does not say that we will or have sin until the day we die. Otherwise the statement," and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" Would be a lie making John a liar; which he is not.
9. If we confess our sins (the noun before it becomes a verb; an action), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and tocleanse us from all unrighteousness.
All means all.
10. If we say that we HAVE NOT sinned [this is the verb and is in the past tense] , we make him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Sinned here is a verb in the Greek. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD. That is why we need Jesus. Due to the sin that is in our being trying to be an action.
To even further emphasize this point John uses these same two Greek words again in the same letter. Here look:
1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin (verb) a sin (noun) which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Never loss Hope. Not that we will sin but if we do John says, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have a Helper toward the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jn 2:1 KJV)
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
(Php 3:12-14 KJV)
[SUP][20][/SUP]For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[SUP][21][/SUP] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[SUP][22][/SUP] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6
[SUP][21][/SUP] What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[SUP][22][/SUP] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6
[video=youtube;oZAhrMhVfxs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZAhrMhVfxs[/video]
Are you using these verses to try and support sinless perfection in the flesh? So how does one become a servant of obedience unto righteousness? By faith or by works?
We must first obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) in order to be accounted as righteous.
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."
Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Works-salvationists ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Their flawed logic then carries over into verses 20-22.
We must first obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) in order to be accounted as righteous.
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."
Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Works-salvationists ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Their flawed logic then carries over into verses 20-22.
Not at all and you did not answer my question.
The flesh obtains faith by their works? Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The flesh obtains faith by their works? Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
That really is a GREAT QUESTION! Shall we investigate how many have gotten divorced, and then married someone else BEFORE their original spouse died? Jesus said that was adultery! Did He ever say that was ACCEPTABLE? Yet how many "Christian denominations" are willing to perform such "marriages" today? Can ANYONE point to ANY scripture that indicates re-marriage after divorce is now ACCEPTABLE, while the previous spouse is still living?
God also made it clear in his word that SIN is chose and should not have dominion over you and you can master it, by renewing your mind, being a partaker of the divine nature, and understanding your position in Christ. . I will never be sinless or prefect and I still SIN, that said I am learning how to overocme sin now.
Do you stop and all red lights and stop signs? If you do, how did you learn to instantly do that? You might in a great while run a stop sign or red light, but most of the time, you never do. Years and years go by and you run a red light or stop sign.
Does this make you sinless and perfect?
Not at all, because you struggle with obeying what the posted speed limit is. You are working to overcome disobeying the speed limit, but have mastered stopping at all red lights and stop signs.
SIN is no different. Only the Devil suggests you can not overcome any SIN, it is the greatest lie he has ever told the church.
Do you stop and all red lights and stop signs? If you do, how did you learn to instantly do that? You might in a great while run a stop sign or red light, but most of the time, you never do. Years and years go by and you run a red light or stop sign.
Does this make you sinless and perfect?
Not at all, because you struggle with obeying what the posted speed limit is. You are working to overcome disobeying the speed limit, but have mastered stopping at all red lights and stop signs.
SIN is no different. Only the Devil suggests you can not overcome any SIN, it is the greatest lie he has ever told the church.
See.....workers for or the lawyers/Pharisees must of necessity push, swallow, believe or hold on to some type of sinless perfectionist dogma or their theology falls apart.....the amount of scripture that must be denied and swept under the table is sickening.....EVEN the words of Jesus in the garden to his saved, immersed, called out disciples which are called the church twice in present tense must be swept under the table, Paul's use and John's use of present tense and the words WE, US, MY, and I must be chunked aside in favor of a religion that places emphasis upon self over Christ.....it no longer rests soley upon Christ amd what he has done and does, but rather upon what I CAN DO (supposedly)....John's use of We, We, We and Us in the present tense proves the error of sinless perfectionist dogma......!
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