So if you are not under the Law, does that mean you are in lawelessness?

[Bowhunter2394]

and the Law and the Ten Commandments are still here today, and they are good, but they are not made for the Righteous, and those In Christ, the Righteousness, they Receive, is IMPUTED by the Father because of Faith in the Son, that He truly has fulfilled the Law, which carnal man could not accomplish.. indeed the Gift of Righteousness, the Person of Christ, God manifest in the flesh! He who WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT.. upon Glorification and being Seated at the Right Hand of the Father!

 

[Grandpa]

Lawlessness is being without the law.

Galatians 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

You would consider the fruit of the spirit as lawlessness?

You know the fruit is not formed by your work at the law?

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

We are all under the law until we come to Christ. When we come to Christ it takes faith to stay there.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Works of the law without faith? I don't see that exclusion here. In fact, Galatians 3 specifically says that the law is not of faith.

You are trying too hard to be back under the law. Which would be fine if you were only bringing yourself back under the law. But blind guides tend to lead other blind into the ditch.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

IMPUTED Righeousness, always brings out the Galatians, the Pharisees, the Scribes, even those who claim Christ, ye want to bring others under their 'christ' + their works of righteousness for meet the Justification Standard.. IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, comes from the Father Indeed.. Righteousness, Justification, ONLY FLOWS THRU CALVARY.. will be NO BOASTING IN FRONT OF THE FATHER NOR JESUS THE CHRIST, about how 'well I did it'..because I followed you perfectly to the T . . nooooo we go right back To Christ Crucified, the nullifier of spiritual pride indeed!

 

[Grandpa]

Jason;
The law and the ten commandments are perfect, of that there is no doubt because they came from God.

What we need to understand for those who don't, is that God gave the law not with the expectations of man could follow them, but in knowing that he could never follow them for under the law you follow it all or nothing. There is no leniency from one to another part of the law. All or nothing.
They were given as a precursor to the coming of Christ, so we could understand that the only way to the kingdom of heaven is through the grace of Christs' sacrifice and not through the perfection of the law.

God wasn't sitting up there saying, hmmmm, ok maybe i should give them my perfect laws so they will know how to get the keys to my kingdom, and when that didn't work, he then says, hmmmmm, that didn't work, maybe i'll send my son down now and see if that works.

Oh my no people, Gods' plan was set forth since the before the beginning of the world. He gave his laws to be as a schoolmaster to teach us how we could never achieve his works expectation to get into his kingdom, so when he then sent his son Christ Jesus, the mystery of his grace could be revealed to us through the sacrifice and resurrection of his only son Christ Jesus.

God bless

Brilliantly said.

What is required by the Law? The Lord Jesus tells us in Matthew 5.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Are you doing it? Are you perfect by your work at the law?

If not, you have only One solution;

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

After you have experienced this rest what hold does the law, the 10 commandments have over us?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Is it too simple?

 

[tribesman]

doesn't this make salvation contingent upon us?

yes, the saints will persevere. but it is God who sees to that.

Ya. That's the whole line of thinking in a nutshell, it has to be us in it! And of course we must be able to lose out on it!

It's tiresome. Good sleeping pill though as I am off to bed now. Peace out.

 

[slave]

Exactly as I think this is one thing overlooked as I see constantly people placing both God's moral laws and the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws as one, and saying Jesus did away with or abolished both because they can not see the distinction between the two the scriptures give.

Our Lord Jesus did not say He did away with, abolished, or even fulfilled the law.
What He actually said was that by His love working through us in obeying the 2 greatest commands fulfills the law, not His death on the cross that gives us remission of sins through Him. Apostle Paul reiterates this in Romans 13:9-11 and Romans 3:31 that love in faith establishes, upholds, and thus fulfills the law.

There is still standards believers are to uphold under the new covenant of grace, and we are told over and over again by Paul what we can and can not continue doing under grace in order to receive salvation through Christ.


Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As a point of clarity, only...Matt. 5:17, says Think not that I come to destroy the law, or the Prophets[ some say Prophets words], I am not come to destroy, but TO FULFILL. Love alone has no power. Without Christ in it to give it power, in relationship to fulfilling the law.

In your point on needing only to love something ..I.must differ in my opinion. Without the direct influence of Christ's work as the premise, the love in faith would have no victory for us. Again, payment for the cost of sin must be paid. We are not to conclude that He is God and can do anything He wants, hence, the law is fulfilled thru our acts..because of that power alone..In this case the act of loving something... It is that He has seen the requirements of righteousness, and He has chosen to remedy the need to pay the debt owed of sins penalty thru a sacrifice of His Son.This is the battle-ends choice He has chosen to remedy our condition. We are that bad ...not to be able to do it on our own against the slavery of Satan"s rule......fixing us was not an option...as God assesses He concludes a plan..with Lucifer He assessed that one day He found rebellion in Him. In us He assessed We were found dead in our transgressions and sins.

So, To at all take off the focus of the Son is gravely in error., for this is His answer. And no other.. Romans 13, and 3 mention the things you spoke of but as a result of that fulfillment in us to act it out in our walk...But is not concluding there that the point of the original premise of it's fulfillment. That is as scripture says is found in Christ, and Christ only. Other wise we are back to what we as humans merit to God, Law. And we have been thru that loop already to know apart from Christ we can do nothing!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

To get off CHRIST CRUCIFIED, is error, yes indeed... because His Work, the preaching of the Cross, NULLIFIES spiritual pride. when you take your eyes off His Propitiation, His COMPLETE AND PERFECT propitiation in Terms of the Standard of God, His Righteousness, thats where pride creeps in, works creeps in, Paul taught that those who taught that, works, gave them not a second.. those who Came in to 'spy on our Liberty in Christ'! indeed!

anybody trying to work themselves to Heaven, trying to be justifiied by their works, even claiming 'christ' yet attaching the yoke of the Law upon them to meet the standard of Righteousness and Justification. are going to be sadly mistaken, when they realize it wasnt about 'them' and how they did it'.. but about What Christ had done for them.. thats why He will say to MANY, and alot of this board, DEPART FROM ME, I never knew you! sadly, that is the Truth and Reality of the Gospel of Christ and Him Crucified!

 

[Word_Swordsman]

You want to continue debating being sinless my friend? Or are you wanting to debate the law itself? I may not be under the laws tight grip and I may be under grace but I still respect his law and follow it the best I can because I love him not because I

Paul talks about two different laws:
#1 is God's law, as the one first given to Moses, then to us by being written on our hearts by the new covenant.
#2 is the law that Governs the flesh, which is the one Jesus destroyed on the cross.
I can give an example of both, because the wording that Paul uses can become confusing at times, and it's hard to distinguish which one he is talking about at times.
This is an example of God's law, and you probably know this, but I'm just trying to distinguish a huge difference in the "Laws".

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds*and write it on their hearts.I will be their God, and they will be my people.*No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know*me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive*their wickedness and will remember their sins*no more."*

That quote from Jeremiah 31 should begin with v.31. The whole chapter promises yet another covenant between God and the house of Israel and the house of Judah.....in the future millennium. That one is very different from the old, and goes beyond our present New Covenant for Gentiles, in that back then as well as now it is still necessary for men to teach one another, that not everyone knows about God, so still have need of being told. The New Covenant requires Romans 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? The New Covenant we have embraced is not what God spoke of through Jeremiah, as that one is specifically for all reunited Israel after the tribulation. By then all on earth will know what God wants them to know.

Reading that chapter (Jer 31) one learns those houses broke the old covenant. It's been divorced from the Jews ever since. Jesus abolished it on the cross, satisfying every demand of the old law. By his life, death, burial and resurrection came the current New Covenant in Christ to the Gentiles, though Jesus was sent to offer it to the house of Judah primarily, and the house of Israel (Samaritans). They rejected it as a nation, though a remnant accepted and populated the New Covenant Church for its first 7 years, taking it to the Gentile world. It has not been held back from Israel or Judah, but they are yet mostly blind to it.

Christians ought not live in fear such that we need to dig up the dead, strap it to our backs, which is what happens when reviving the Old Covenant. The New Covenant contains more commandments of righteousness than the old law, but without the enmity of the old. Murder is sufficiently covered in the New, so no, murderers don't get a free pass. It is better than the old. To take up the old while having the new is like keeping your old rusted 68 Pontiac that won't run, set up on blocks in the garage, while your new Lexus sits outside on the driveway in the rain, hail, and sun. Put the Pontiac in the wrecking yard, lest someone wants to restore it :\

Hebrews 8:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Christians, stop worrying about what might happen if you abandon the Mosaic Law. It was for the Jews, and remains in print for the purposes of justification of identifying and punishing criminals. In Christ our focus is supposed to be on righteousness, not fearing we are breaking some law imposed upon ancient Israel. Their covenant is broken, not in effect. They are living now on promises of God, to get their new covenant with God later. I suspect that will mirror what Christians live by now, except that their version will keep them separate from the world's Gentile nations, some branded by God as Goat nations due to their abuses of Israel even today, and some Sheep nations that will be partners with future Israel. Demanding Israel to give their land up to the 'Philistines' (Palestinians) will make those nations Goat nations, made to serve Israel as though slaves.

Everyone here, be not a slave to fear or sin. Learn of Christ, live in his righteousness, doing his commandments which are very light burdens, carrying your own light cross for the sake of the gospel.

In that sense I Like Bowhunter2394's post #8 best of this thread.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

That quote from Jeremiah 31 should begin with v.31. The whole chapter promises yet another covenant between God and the house of Israel and the house of Judah.....in the future millennium. That one is very different from the old, and goes beyond our present New Covenant for Gentiles, in that back then as well as now it is still necessary for men to teach one another, that not everyone knows about God, so still have need of being told. The New Covenant requires Romans 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? The New Covenant we have embraced is not what God spoke of through Jeremiah, as that one is specifically for all reunited Israel after the tribulation. By then all on earth will know what God wants them to know.

Reading that chapter (Jer 31) one learns those houses broke the old covenant. It's been divorced from the Jews ever since. Jesus abolished it on the cross, satisfying every demand of the old law. By his life, death, burial and resurrection came the current New Covenant in Christ to the Gentiles, though Jesus was sent to offer it to the house of Judah primarily, and the house of Israel (Samaritans). They rejected it as a nation, though a remnant accepted and populated the New Covenant Church for its first 7 years, taking it to the Gentile world. It has not been held back from Israel or Judah, but they are yet mostly blind to it.

Christians ought not live in fear such that we need to dig up the dead, strap it to our backs, which is what happens when reviving the Old Covenant. The New Covenant contains more commandments of righteousness than the old law, but without the enmity of the old. Murder is sufficiently covered in the New, so no, murderers don't get a free pass. It is better than the old. To take up the old while having the new is like keeping your old rusted 68 Pontiac that won't run, set up on blocks in the garage, while your new Lexus sits outside on the driveway in the rain, hail, and sun. Put the Pontiac in the wrecking yard, lest someone wants to restore it :\

Hebrews 8:6-7 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Christians, stop worrying about what might happen if you abandon the Mosaic Law. It was for the Jews, and remains in print for the purposes of justification of identifying and punishing criminals. In Christ our focus is supposed to be on righteousness, not fearing we are breaking some law imposed upon ancient Israel. Their covenant is broken, not in effect. They are living now on promises of God, to get their new covenant with God later. I suspect that will mirror what Christians live by now, except that their version will keep them separate from the world's Gentile nations, some branded by God as Goat nations due to their abuses of Israel even today, and some Sheep nations that will be partners with future Israel. Demanding Israel to give their land up to the 'Philistines' (Palestinians) will make those nations Goat nations, made to serve Israel as though slaves.

Everyone here, be not a slave to fear or sin. Learn of Christ, live in his righteousness, doing his commandments which are very light burdens, carrying your own light cross for the sake of the gospel.

In that sense I Like Bowhunter2394's post #8 best of this thread.

couldnt of written it any better, Excellent! so many on here have so much better ways of putting it in Print than myself.. im just a simple man.. Saved by His Grace ! and Mercy! Un merited .. for this I know! ------> ... which confirms, Psalm 45, MY Tongue is the pen of a Read Writer! indeed! excellent Rigthtly Dividing the Word of Truth, as led of by the Spirit!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Paul answered the question the thread title asks. Trying to discuss this subject with the OP is a giant waste of time and needless irritation of trillions of electrons.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Paul answered the question the thread title asks. Trying to discuss this subject with the OP is a giant waste of time and needless irritation of trillions of electrons.

WHO holds up those 'electron's ye are talking about? Who Holds them up? allows them to continue to exist?

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, why do you continue to insist on this way of thinking when those OSAS believers, you have so much trouble with, do not continue in sin that grace may abound! The one who judges the axe murdering serial killer does not understand how ready God is to be merciful to sinners. His actions are condemned and his sin has been crucified, but will you be the one who extends the mercy and grace of God when God brings his heart to that place of contrition? David was an adulterer and a murderer and did not acknowledge his sin until the prophet Nathan made it known to him in (2 Sam 12) and the Lord had PUT AWAY his sin. I don't think you would have had much to do with David knowing of these two 'cardinal sins' that David was a partaker of, let alone being subject to anything he would teach thereafter, especially teaching transgressors the way of the Lord and converting sinners (Psalm 51:13).

Do you believe in complete restoration after the fact? We see many leaders who have fallen into some form of sin and error and instead of restoring them back to the call of God they are put on probation. Is that what God did to you when he saved you and forgave you of your sin? Who are these that decide that God's man needs to be put on a leash of probation and monitor his behavior as it becometh a Christian? It's as if God has not put away his sin. Did Jesus put away the sin of the adulterous woman who was caught in the act of adultery in (John 8) when he said, 'Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more? Was that probation or was that the grace of God ministered to her, giving her the strength to go and not continue in that sin?

No, most OSAS believers here believe in the deadly 7. This is a list of beliefs that leads people to think they can sin and still be saved. You can try and sugarcoat what you think stands for what you believe is moral and good; But I am not buying it. I already know many times the dark fruits of such a wrong belief.

 

[Jason0047]

Saints PERSEVERE , AND are Kept in Christ, because God 'keeps' them... this not based on man's abilities.. no , You are Led of the Spirit, and Kept in Christ by the Father.. indeed!


Now UNTO----> HIM that is 'able ' to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the Presence of His Glory with exceeding joy, jUDE 1 : 24

the Saint Perseveres and is Kept in Him, because God is ABLE, not based on his/her works to 'keep' oneself, that is a man made salvation.... the word ABLE there is 1410 Dunamis- Holy Ghost power, that is not man made power but it comes from the Father, God is ABLE to keep you... man says, I AM ABLE TO KEEP MYSELF AND PERSEVERE.. thats not what the Word Tells us! indeed!

You make it sound like we don't have "free will" after accepting Christ.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

WHO holds up those 'electron's ye are talking about? Who Holds them up? allows them to continue to exist?

God does. Jason irritates them. So do those who attempt to debate Jason and his false teaching.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

God does. Jason irritates them. So do those who attempt to debate Jason and his false teaching.

I'm Held up by Electrons, and I dont have the Impression, nor is He giving it to me that He is 'irritated' by trying to Pull another person , out of false teaching.... 'careful'...... unless you are the 'source' of those Electrons, that would make you 'God'.. careful..

Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shallsave a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20

 

[crossnote]

So if you are not under the Law, does that mean you are in lawelessness?

Of course not...

Romans 6:14-16
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[phil112]

So if you are not under the Law, does that mean you are in lawelessness?

Doesn't surprise me that someone that tries to present themselves as bible smart, like you do, has to ask such an ignorant question.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

So the axe murdering serial killer who spares your life because he loves you is a good guy? Sorry, I am not buying your version of morality. Any doctrine that allows a person to potentially get away with evil is wrong and you know it. If one is not punished for being lawless, then that would make God unjust.

But an axe murderer does not love in truth so that doesn't establish the law,but grace is not about you owe me but we love GOD because he first loved us.

All the law is summed up in one word...love.
If you love GOD you will be obedient to the two commandments and if you love your neighbor you will have his best interest at heart.

 

[Jason0047]

Amen my friend. God is love.

Yes, God is love. But his love does not extend to a person in them openly rebelling against Him. If God were to allow that to happen, then the Lord would not be holy because He would be allowing His people to get away with evil. I mean, honestly. This is not a hard concept to grasp. You do evil and you are evil. If you do righteousness, then you are righteous. You shouldn't have to be told that. But the Bible says it, leaving anyone who is trying to justify a sin and still saved doctrine without any excuse. For God will not tolerate any kind of Lawlessness.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Loving God with all your heart, soul, and Mind, and spirit and loving thy Neighbor as thyself... upon these 2 Commandments hang all the Law and of the Prophets Matthew 22 Indeed....

Christ Loved His Neighbor by Giving His Life on the bloody Tree, Agape Love... 'He died or took the place of His Sinful Neighbor and the 'good person' Who Lived down the street, He calls His Own to to take up their Own Cross and follow Him, loving as He loved, 'Father , forgive them, for they know not what they Do'. indeed!