Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

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gotime

Senior Member
#321
Mar 3, 2011
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#321
james57 said:
So is your view now, those who went straight to heaven in the OT will be transferred to the new Jerusalem on this earth as prophesied in rev 21:1-3 I am assuming it is.

Your view contradicts a lot of plain scripture, you must also believe they entered heaven in an imperfect state as per your quote of hwb 11:40

I don't see how that is possible, but I'm sure you can explain it!!!
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NO my view takes in a little more than that, but in a nutshell, They are resurrected when Jesus comes at the beginning of the 1000 years where they rise and meet the Lord in the Air and are taken to heaven for 1000 years. But after the 1000 years they return to earth with God and the Holy City in which the earth is made new and then they have received the promise.

As for the one or ones who already went to heaven WE are not told what they do. If they are in heaven well then they are already at the city which is there until after the 1000 years where it comes here.

Imperfect state? I have no Idea why you think that?
 
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james57

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#322
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gotime said:
I have yet to see where it contradicts scripture. I accept you think it does but I do not.
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No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the son of man john 3:13

So scripture is contradicted if you are right. But of course, you then have to cry context don't you!!!

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man 1cor15:21

And ge is the head of the body, the church, he is the beginning and the first born from the dead so that in everything he might have the supremacy col1:18

But I know, your one verse must be taken literally, no context needed, but the numerous other verses that are opposed to your view all need context and cannot be accepted according to what they plainly state
 
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gotime

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#323
Mar 3, 2011
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#323
james57 said:
Rev21:3 states:

NOW( not before) the dwelling of God is with men.
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Did not God dwell with men when he became a man. "God with us"

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Did not God dwell with men when he mad the sanctuary?

Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

God did but not in the same sense. thus context.
 
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james57

Banned
#324
Oct 21, 2015
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#324
gotime said:
NO my view takes in a little more than that, but in a nutshell, They are resurrected when Jesus comes at the beginning of the 1000 years where they rise and meet the Lord in the Air and are taken to heaven for 1000 years. But after the 1000 years they return to earth with God and the Holy City in which the earth is made new and then they have received the promise.

As for the one or ones who already went to heaven WE are not told what they do. If they are in heaven well then they are already at the city which is there until after the 1000 years where it comes here.

Imperfect state? I have no Idea why you think that?
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God had planned something better for us, SO THAT ONLY TOGETHER WITH US would they be made perfect hwb11:40
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#325
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
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#325
james57 said:
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the son of man john 3:13

So scripture is contradicted if you are right. But of course, you then have to cry context don't you!!!

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man 1cor15:21

And ge is the head of the body, the church, he is the beginning and the first born from the dead so that in everything he might have the supremacy col1:18

But I know, your one verse must be taken literally, no context needed, but the numerous other verses that are opposed to your view all need context and cannot be accepted according to what they plainly state
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It does not contradict if I am right cause if I am right then you are wrong and thus no contradiction. The supposed contradiction is you applying your wrong use to my right use. Thus the contradiction is not in scripture but your private interpretation of it.

Which you wont address cause you don't like context. Or in other words you don't allow Scripture to speak for itself. But if you think it is the other way around sit still for a second and deal with one point at a time instead of constantly jumping here there and everywhere.

So tell my how you think that 1 Cor 15:21 goes against what I have said.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#326
Mar 3, 2011
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#326
james57 said:
God had planned something better for us, SO THAT ONLY TOGETHER WITH US would they be made perfect hwb11:40
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Oh I see the problem you have a simplistic view of perfection.
 
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james57

Banned
#327
Oct 21, 2015
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#327
gotime said:
It does not contradict if I am right cause if I am right then you are wrong and thus no contradiction. The supposed contradiction is you applying your wrong use to my right use. Thus the contradiction is not in scripture but your private interpretation of it.

Which you wont address cause you don't like context. Or in other words you don't allow

Scripture to speak for itself. But if you think it is the other way around sit still for a second and deal with one point at a time instead of constantly jumping here there and everywhere.

So tell my how you think that 1 Cor 15:21 goes against what I have said.
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The resurrection of the dead comes through a man, Jesus. Jesus was not a man before he walked this earth

John 3:13 is scripture speaking for itself but of course you refuse to believe it, and col1:18 is perfect alignment with john 3:13

You are using the rational mind to try and understand the spiritual, that is your problem
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#329
Mar 3, 2011
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#329
james57 said:
The resurrection of the dead comes through a man, Jesus. Jesus was not a man before he walked this earth

John 3:13 is scripture speaking for itself but of course you refuse to believe it, and col1:18 is perfect alignment with john 3:13

You are using the rational mind to try and understand the spiritual, that is your problem
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Yes Resurrection does come through a man, Jesus we agree on that. however I still don't see the link between that and John 3 in relation to no one going to heaven.

People were Resurrected before Jesus came to earth. So what exactly is your point in using this text?
 
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james57

Banned
#330
Oct 21, 2015
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#330
gotime said:
Did not God dwell with men when he became a man. "God with us"

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Did not God dwell with men when he mad the sanctuary?

Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

God did but not in the same sense. thus context.
Click to expand...

Yes, context. Rev 21:3 is speaking of man dwelling with God in heaven
 
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james57

Banned
#331
Oct 21, 2015
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#331
gotime said:
Yes Resurrection does come through a man, Jesus we agree on that. however I still don't see the link between that and John 3 in relation to no one going to heaven.

People were Resurrected before Jesus came to earth. So what exactly is your point in using this text?
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Who was resurrected to eternal life before Jesus came to earth? It has been pointed out to you many time that is what is meant
 
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james57

Banned
#332
Oct 21, 2015
2,420
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#332
gotime said:
Yes Resurrection does come through a man, Jesus we agree on that. however I still don't see the link between that and John 3 in relation to no one going to heaven.

People were Resurrected before Jesus came to earth. So what exactly is your point in using this text?
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Resurrection to eternal life came through Jesus, therefore no one had entered heaven but he john 3:13
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#333
Mar 3, 2011
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james57 said:
Yes, context. Rev 21:3 is speaking of man dwelling with God in heaven
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Yes context biblical context not your context. so what does the bible say?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Its coming down from heaven.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

notice God will dwell with men, not, men will dwell with God. The difference is small but God is coming to earth.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

its in the Context of the New earth so no this is not God dwelling with them in heaven but on earth.
 
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james57

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#334
Oct 21, 2015
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gotime said:
Yes context biblical context not your context. so what does the bible say?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Its coming down from heaven.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

notice God will dwell with men, not, men will dwell with God. The difference is small but God is coming to earth.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

its in the Context of the New earth so no this is not God dwelling with them in heaven but on earth.
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So in your context there is a difference between men dwelling with God and God dwelling with men.

In other words there is a difference between me living with my wife and my wife living with me
 
G

gotime

Senior Member
#335
Mar 3, 2011
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james57 said:
Resurrection to eternal life came through Jesus, therefore no one had entered heaven but he john 3:13
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Ok I get that but how do you jump from eternal life to heaven. The two are not intertwined.

where does it say one must have eternal life in order to enter heaven?

Elijah had life and he in fact never saw death but was taken into heaven as it is written in the scriptures. Did he not have eternal life based on faith in what Christ would do?

Christ is the lamb slain form the foundation of the world is he not?
 
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james57

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#336
Oct 21, 2015
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All this is, is you trying to theologically extrapolate scripture to mean something other than the plain word states

A person can only do that with their rational,logical mind. The holy spirit wont lead them to do that
You are led of your natural mind, it wont help you understand the spiritual. And sadly also your pride
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#337
Mar 3, 2011
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#337
james57 said:
So in your context there is a difference between men dwelling with God and God dwelling with men.

In other words there is a difference between me living with my wife and my wife living with me
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You know when I was writing that I decided to put that part in for a reason, I said to myself, I bet he will focus on that part as it is the weakest part of the argument presented. You did not disappoint.

Ps I made two other points that are the solid ones. Go read the chapter before it helps also in the location of where the city goes. There are also some Old testament prophecies concerning where the city will go.
 
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james57

Banned
#338
Oct 21, 2015
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#338
gotime said:
Ok I get that but how do you jump from eternal life to heaven. The two are not intertwined.

where does it say one must have eternal life in order to enter heaven?

Elijah had life and he in fact never saw death but was taken into heaven as it is written in the scriptures. Did he not have eternal life based on faith in what Christ would do?

Christ is the lamb slain form the foundation of the world is he not?
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I see, so you believe once a person has entered heaven to dwell with God they do not have eternal life. They will die in heaven, then get raised to life to live on the new earth
The problem is, flesh and blood cannot enter heaven(1cor15:50) bodies of flesh and blood are corruptible, not our heavenly bodies
 
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james57

Banned
#339
Oct 21, 2015
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#339
gotime said:
You know when I was writing that I decided to put that part in for a reason, I said to myself, I bet he will focus on that part as it is the weakest part of the argument presented. You did not disappoint.

Ps I made two other points that are the solid ones. Go read the chapter before it helps also in the location of where the city goes. There are also some Old testament prophecies concerning where the city will go.
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Please do not complain if i respond to what you write. If you are making weak points that is not my fault
 
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james57

Banned
#340
Oct 21, 2015
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#340
gotime said:
Ok I get that but how do you jump from eternal life to heaven. The two are not intertwined.

where does it say one must have eternal life in order to enter heaven?

Elijah had life and he in fact never saw death but was taken into heaven as it is written in the scriptures. Did he not have eternal life based on faith in what Christ would do?

Christ is the lamb slain form the foundation of the world is he not?
Click to expand...
You are still building a doctrine on one verse of scripture concerning Elijah. A Baptist minister of 50 years said no one should build a doctrine on one verse of scripture. Especially when so many verses oppose the understanding you have of it. You need to see the context!!
 
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