Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

[posthuman]

Ok I will stop now this is fruitless. we will simply agree to disagree.

thanks for taking some time and effort to explain that for me

i'm not going to jump in and start arguing about things that i don't comprehend.
but i'll say that Zechariah chapter 3 is especially interesting here -- in verse 1 the prophet sees the high priest standing before "the angel of the Lord" -- and in verse 2, presumably that same "angel of the Lord" is called "the Lord"

i think almost all of us commonly agree that in the old testament in many places what's called "the angel of the Lord" is a theophany; a manifestation of the pre-incarnate Christ, right?
so what gotime is saying here isn't so far-fetched. this isn't the same as believing that at the cross Christ 'ducked out' and was replaced by some created being -- which would make the atonement insufficient for all sin.

 

[gotime]

As you have said you enjoy the chat with me, I wonder if you would answer a couple of questions that puzzle me. From your excellent scriptures above(I admit to not thinking of them) you have shown that neither, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets went straight to Heaven when they died, they have to await the resurrection of the dead. However, you do believe Elijah went straight to Heaven to dwell with God when he died.

My first question is this. What in your opinion was it about Elijah, as a person, or the way he lived that made God accept him into Heaven immediately upon him leaving this earth, but not those others mentioned? The others mentioned were commended for their faith, but according to your scriptures, they have to await the resurrection of the dead, while Elijah does not. Why is this?

My second question is this. If Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets have to await the resurrection of the dead, is there anyone else in the OT who you believe God would have taken straight to Heaven? Who else can you think of God would have been more pleased with as to their life on earth than I have mentioned, and so immediately have been rewarded with Heaven? If you cannot think of anyone, is your belief that only one person left this earth in OT times and went to dwell with God in Heaven-Elijah?
You see, that doesn't seem right to me, not at all. But I know we see things very differently

I Don't know why God took Elijah and no one else. However I do find it interesting that Elijah was one of those who came to Jesus to help Him before He died on the cross. Maybe that was the reason I don't know. I don't think though that it was because he was better than others.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Two men appeared to with Jesus for the intent of speaking about his death to come. I assume it was to comfort and encourage. It is also interesting that both these men were comforted by Christ before His incarnation on a mt in the Old Testament. This could be the reason I don't know the Bible as far as I know does not give a reason.

As to your second question again I don't think it has to do with them being better than others but God has his purpose and he preforms it.

As said I believe Moses also was raised as he appeared with Elijah to Moses. But it never actually says he went to heaven so I guess that is an educated opinion on my part. I say educated because there are not many options biblical that i know of and heaven makes the most sense. And revelation seems to indicate that there are some redeemed in heaven before the second coming, but again I am not totally sure on that one.

Enoch also was taken, now that does not say he went to heaven directly so again my opinion on that one. I do not believe he died but was taken away. It seems Elijah is the only one that is clearly spoken of as going.

But like I said I don't think it has to do with how good or better he was but rather God has his purpose, I assume it has to do with what happened with Jesus but I don't know for sure.

David is spoken of by Peter in these words:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Peter argued that David did not go into the heavens but to this day is n the grave thus what David said was clearly not about himself and thus Peter establishes that what David said was actually prophetic about Jesus.

One could ask why did David not get to go? We don't know why the bible never says. But the indication In Hebrews seems to be that God wanted us all to have the reward together.

It seems Elijah was needed or used by God for another purpose and thus is an exception to the general rule.

 

[james57]

I Don't know why God took Elijah and no one else. However I do find it interesting that Elijah was one of those who came to Jesus to help Him before He died on the cross. Maybe that was the reason I don't know. I don't think though that it was because he was better than others.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Two men appeared to with Jesus for the intent of speaking about his death to come. I assume it was to comfort and encourage. It is also interesting that both these men were comforted by Christ before His incarnation on a mt in the Old Testament. This could be the reason I don't know the Bible as far as I know does not give a reason.

As to your second question again I don't think it has to do with them being better than others but God has his purpose and he preforms it.

As said I believe Moses also was raised as he appeared with Elijah to Moses. But it never actually says he went to heaven so I guess that is an educated opinion on my part. I say educated because there are not many options biblical that i know of and heaven makes the most sense. And revelation seems to indicate that there are some redeemed in heaven before the second coming, but again I am not totally sure on that one.

Enoch also was taken, now that does not say he went to heaven directly so again my opinion on that one. I do not believe he died but was taken away. It seems Elijah is the only one that is clearly spoken of as going.

But like I said I don't think it has to do with how good or better he was but rather God has his purpose, I assume it has to do with what happened with Jesus but I don't know for sure.

David is spoken of by Peter in these words:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Peter argued that David did not go into the heavens but to this day is n the grave thus what David said was clearly not about himself and thus Peter establishes that what David said was actually prophetic about Jesus.

One could ask why did David not get to go? We don't know why the bible never says. But the indication In Hebrews seems to be that God wanted us all to have the reward together.

It seems Elijah was needed or used by God for another purpose and thus is an exception to the general rule.

That's quite a belief you have. One person who died in OT times went to heaven to dwell with God, everyone else must await the resurrection of the dead.
Now I suppose I could say to you context lol concerning the solitary verse in the OT concerning a singular person gaining entry into heaven as you say context must be used concerning john 3:13, but I doubt there would be much point!
Now as you have accepted, and quite rightly no one mentioned in heb ch13 went to heaven when they died I could point out in that chapter it states, the prophets of which Elijah was one, but I guess there wouldn't be any point in mentioning that either
Someone said to me once. Don't build a doctrine on one verse of scripture. I agree with him

 

[gotime]

You wil have to show me where I quoted Jude.

So the following needs to be put in its proper context?

No one has ever entered heaven except the one who came from Heaven, the son of man

Well, as that is all you can say to avoid what it does plainly state I am not surprised.

It doesn't surprise me that after being shown the contradictions in your thinking concerning this subject that have been highlighted you now attack me personally
Oh well
Sleep well

Not an attack but an observation, You seem desperate to not address the context. Why is that so hard to do?

Do you really not get that context informs the use of words?

let me give you a silly example:

The dog was crossing the road when a car smashed into the greyhound.

Person A says "wow poor greyhound dog got hit by the car".

Person B says "the dog did not get hit"

Person A says "read the plain words it hit the greyhound, a greyhound is a dog, it says the dog was crossing the road"

Person B says "read the context the paragraph before is talking about a bus and greyhound is the company name The dog was simply crossing when the car hit the bus."

Person A while ignoring surrounding context says "read the plain words its a dog. "The dog was crossing the road when a car smashed into the greyhound. "

Person B while taking into account the words used in the paragraph above says "no the context clearly shows that the greyhound is a bus, the dog just happens to be crossing when he bus got hit."

Person A, "oh you would say anything to hold onto your Idea, we can make anything say what we want it to". while still avoiding the context.

This is an illustration to make a point the point is context effects the words thus context is important. The illustration is different and more simplistic but the point is the same.

 

[gotime]

That's quite a belief you have. One person who died in OT times went to heaven to dwell with God, everyone else must await the resurrection of the dead.
Now I suppose I could say to you context lol concerning the solitary verse in the OT concerning a singular person gaining entry into heaven as you say context must be used concerning john 3:13, but I doubt there would be much point!
Now as you have accepted, and quite rightly no one mentioned in heb ch13 went to heaven when they died I could point out in that chapter it states, the prophets of which Elijah was one, but I guess there wouldn't be any point in mentioning that either
Someone said to me once. Don't build a doctrine on one verse of scripture. I agree with him

If you can show me that contextually I have misread then I am all ears or eyes in this case. I take context seriously.

 

[james57]

Not an attack but an observation, You seem desperate to not address the context. Why is that so hard to do?

Do you really not get that context informs the use of words?

let me give you a silly example:

The dog was crossing the road when a car smashed into the greyhound.

Person A says "wow poor greyhound dog got hit by the car".

Person B says "the dog did not get hit"

Person A says "read the plain words it hit the greyhound, a greyhound is a dog, it says the dog was crossing the road"

Person B says "read the context the paragraph before is talking about a bus and greyhound is the company name The dog was simply crossing when the car hit the bus."

Person A while ignoring surrounding context says "read the plain words its a dog. "The dog was crossing the road when a car smashed into the greyhound. "

Person B while taking into account the words used in the paragraph above says "no the context clearly shows that the greyhound is a bus, the dog just happens to be crossing when he bus got hit."

Person A, "oh you would say anything to hold onto your Idea, we can make anything say what we want it to". while still avoiding the context.

This is an illustration to make a point the point is context effects the words thus context is important. The illustration is different and more simplistic but the point is the same.

I have debated with many who expect you to accept their quoted scripture as written. When they cannot respond to the scripture they are given they reply. Context!

You only have one verse of scripture on which to try and build a doctrine, not advisable, especially when that verse is plainly at first glance much contradicted by many other scriptures. But as I say, if I say context to you concerning I, you would refuse to accept it, despite what you have written in Thi post i am responding to

 

[james57]

If you can show me that contextually I have misread then I am all ears or eyes in this case. I take context seriously.

You have refused the plain scriptures and ended up with a belief I doubt anyone on Thi website would agree with
You believe one person who left Thi earth in the OT went to heaven, the rest await the resurrection of the dead. You have only come to that conclusion today after I pointed out to you what your scripture quotes meant from heb ch11
Possibly tomorrow you nay have a different belief than you hold today

 

[49]

He did not go to dwell in heaven with God according to Christs words
The bible gives various names for where people go when they leave this earth. Sheol, paradise to name but two

Thank you for the reply. Still much to discover and learn on my end.

 

[gotime]

Oh by the way I think I have worked out where I went wrong in Hebrews 11. It is not talking about heaven my bad.

It says:

Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

What is the promise that they have not received?

Context tells us and I admit I had not properly read the context.

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Revelation reveled the city comes to earth when the earth is made new:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Jesus said:

Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The promise is after Jesus has come thus they could not have received it even if they were in heaven now. So this verse does not say that they could not be in heaven now as I first used it for by ignoring the context.

However we know David did not go as Peter said He did not. So even if Moses went to heaven he still has not received the promise being spoken of here.

SO my error was using this verse to say the promise was going up to heaven where God is not. It is not I therefore was wrong in my assertion.

 

[james57]

Thank you for the reply. Still much to discover and learn on my end.

We will all be learning as long as we live. Paul said he only knew in part, I am sure the part I know is far less than the part he knew
God bless

 

[gotime]

I have debated with many who expect you to accept their quoted scripture as written. When they cannot respond to the scripture they are given they reply. Context!

You only have one verse of scripture on which to try and build a doctrine, not advisable, especially when that verse is plainly at first glance much contradicted by many other scriptures. But as I say, if I say context to you concerning I, you would refuse to accept it, despite what you have written in Thi post i am responding to

lol how would you know you have never tried. sounds to me like you have nothing so its easier to simply say. Oh you would not accept it. If you have nothing to say, then say nothing don't go on about things you don't know.

 

[james57]

Oh by the way I think I have worked out where I went wrong in Hebrews 11. It is not talking about heaven my bad.

It says:

Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

What is the promise that they have not received?

Context tells us and I admit I had not properly read the context.

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Revelation reveled the city comes to earth when the earth is made new:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Jesus said:

Mat_5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The promise is after Jesus has come thus they could not have received it even if they were in heaven now. So this verse does not say that they could not be in heaven now as I first used it for by ignoring the context.

However we know David did not go as Peter said He did not. So even if Moses went to heaven he still has not received the promise being spoken of here.

SO my error was using this verse to say the promise was going up to heaven where God is not. It is not I therefore was wrong in my assertion.

I'm sorry but I am lost with your different beliefs on this subject which seem to change daily

 

[james57]

lol how would you know you have never tried. sounds to me like you have nothing so its easier to simply say. Oh you would not accept it. If you have nothing to say, then say nothing don't go on about things you don't know.

Rather than go over this again. Let me just repeat, you believe one person in ot times died and went to heaven, the rest await the resurrection of the dead. That is unless you have once again changed your mind
That belief says much, it is testimony to which of us is right and which of us is wrong

 

[gotime]

You have refused the plain scriptures and ended up with a belief I doubt anyone on Thi website would agree with
You believe one person who left Thi earth in the OT went to heaven, the rest await the resurrection of the dead. You have only come to that conclusion today after I pointed out to you what your scripture quotes meant from heb ch11
Possibly tomorrow you nay have a different belief than you hold today

Now that is not true, I have believed for a long time that only a few have gone while the far majority await the resurrection. Its what our church teaches long before me. All you did with Heb is reveal to me that I had made a wrong judgment on some aspect, namely what the promise was.

 

[Magenta]

Muslims believe their was a switcheroo at the crucifixion, Jesus didn't die, a lookalike died in his place.
Yet they also consider the Gospels divinely inspired- somehow!

Islam's prophet, Muhammad, believed Jesus was the Messiah, Allah's anointed messenger. Allah's people (Muslims) are told to listen to Allah's messengers (Koran, 4.171; 5. 111*) Muhammad's revelations about Jesus, contained in the Koran, should be read by his followers, all Muslims, as the Koran requires. The Qur'an/Koran proves Jesus is the Messiah and Muhammad did not replace him as final prophet.

 

[gotime]

I'm sorry but I am lost with your different beliefs on this subject which seem to change daily

Lol I must admit you frustrate me sometimes. I am sure If we talked person to person a lot of these issues would become clear. I have not changed daily as you exaggerated.

I change when I am shown I am wrong. But many times it is your misunderstanding of what I write that makes you think I have changed.

 

[gotime]

Rather than go over this again. Let me just repeat, you believe one person in ot times died and went to heaven, the rest await the resurrection of the dead. That is unless you have once again changed your mind
That belief says much, it is testimony to which of us is right and which of us is wrong

Just as I said nothing.

 

[gotime]

Like yesterday you said I did not agree with my own Churches teaching but I do it was you who got something wrong on what I believe.

today you think I did not believe that only a few went to heaven while the rest await the resurrection but I have believe that for a long time.

I think you are confused. But that can be the nature of written communication I find. not blaming you personally it can just as easily by my communication that is the problem.

 

[james57]

Now that is not true, I have believed for a long time that only a few have gone while the far majority await the resurrection. Its what our church teaches long before me. All you did with Heb is reveal to me that I had made a wrong judgment on some aspect, namely what the promise was.

Lol. Your a minister aren't you?

 

[james57]

Just as I said nothing.

Forget pride gotine, you are all over the place here with your views that change like the wind.
I've given you the scriptural support, you've even supplied some yourself to prove my view correct.
Where is your scriptural support. Well it is just your theological extrapolation of texts in an effort to overturn the plain words of the bible and it has left you with what is frankly a ridiculous belief I doubt anyone will accept