Some of the OT can be hard to stomach

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Jan 27, 2025
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#21
I would recommend you read a two volume work by Greg Boyd called "The Crucifixion of the Warrior King."

Essentially, He argues for a crucicentric (Cross-centred) hermeneutic. Jesus is "the brightness of God's glory, and the express image of His person", The incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Jesus is the clearest revelation of God's natureand will, The cross is the clearest revelation of the wisdom and power of God.

Externally, superficially, in the cross we seem to be seeing something grotesque and obscene, something cruel and unjust. But when the Holy Spirit opens our understanding we see a beautiful expression of God's condescending love for his creation. Greg Boyd shows how we can look at the "difficult to stomach Old Testament passages" with sanctified eyes and understanding, to see even in those accounts, examples of God's condescending love for His creatures, rather than the superficial appearance of cruelty and violence.

Those two substantial volumes are well worth the read IMHO.
I’m familiar with Gregory Boyd, but have not read that book. I have read some of his stuff from his website though.

I asked Bible Chat AI if it “Can give me an example of viewing some of Old Testament passages that we talked about earlier through the lens of the cross?”

Here was its response. Let me know what you think.

“Viewing Old Testament passages through the lens of the cross involves interpreting them in light of the revelation of God's character and love demonstrated through Jesus Christ's sacrifice. Here are a few examples:

### 1. **The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19)**

- **Traditional View**: This account describes God's judgment on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah due to their extreme wickedness and immorality, leading to their destruction by fire and brimstone.

- **Crucicentric Interpretation**: Through the lens of the cross, we see God's desire for repentance and mercy. While judgment was necessary due to their unrepentant sin, the cross reveals God's ultimate desire for redemption. Jesus' teaching on love and mercy (e.g., Matthew 5:44) encourages us to reflect on God's longing for all to turn from sin and be saved. The cross exemplifies God's willingness to suffer for humanity rather than simply execute judgment.

### 2. **The Plagues of Egypt (Exodus 7-12)**

- **Traditional View**: The plagues were a demonstration of God's power over Pharaoh and the Egyptian gods, culminating in the death of the firstborn as a judgment against Egypt's oppression of Israel.

- **Crucicentric Interpretation**: Viewing this through the cross, we recognize that God's ultimate goal was liberation and salvation for His people. The Passover lamb, whose blood protected the Israelites from judgment (Exodus 12:13), foreshadows Christ as the ultimate Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7). The cross represents God's provision for salvation and deliverance, emphasizing His desire to rescue humanity from sin and oppression rather than merely inflict punishment.

### 3. **The Conquest of Canaan (Joshua)**

- **Traditional View**: The conquest narratives describe God's command to the Israelites to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan, which raises questions about divine violence and judgment.

- **Crucicentric Interpretation**: Through the lens of the cross, we can see that God's actions were aimed at establishing a holy people who would reflect His character. However, the cross reveals that God's ultimate plan is not one of violence but of reconciliation and peace. Jesus' teachings on loving enemies (Matthew 5:44) challenge us to reconsider how we understand God's justice and mercy. The cross calls us to embody love and grace rather than violence, emphasizing that God's heart is for restoration rather than destruction.

### 4. **The Sacrificial System (Leviticus)**

- **Traditional View**: The Old Testament sacrificial system involved animal sacrifices for atonement of sin, which can seem harsh and bloody.

- **Crucicentric Interpretation**: Viewing this through the cross, we understand that these sacrifices were a foreshadowing of Christ's ultimate sacrifice for humanity. Hebrews 10:4 states, "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins," pointing to the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice. The cross reveals God's profound love and desire for a relationship with humanity, providing a way for true atonement and reconciliation through Christ.

### Summary

In summary, interpreting Old Testament passages through the lens of the cross allows us to see God's character of love, mercy, and desire for redemption. It challenges us to understand judgment not as an end in itself but as a call to repentance and restoration. The cross serves as the ultimate revelation of God's heart for humanity, emphasizing grace and reconciliation over violence and retribution.”

A crucicentric interpretation of the destruction of the Canaanites, as well as the passages in Numbers 25:5-9 and Deuteronomy 20:14-18, focuses on understanding these events through the lens of the cross of Jesus Christ and the overarching themes of God's love, justice, and redemption. Here’s how we can approach these texts:

### 1. **Canaanite Destruction**

- **Context of Judgment**: The destruction of the Canaanites was a response to their persistent idolatry, immorality, and practices that were abhorrent to God (Leviticus 18:24-25). They had ample opportunity to repent, but their continued rebellion led to divine judgment.

- **Crucicentric Interpretation**: Viewing this through the lens of the cross, we recognize that God's judgment is not arbitrary but is rooted in His holiness and justice. The cross reveals God's ultimate desire for redemption rather than destruction. While the Canaanites faced judgment, God's heart is always inclined toward mercy. The cross exemplifies how God takes sin seriously, yet provides a way for reconciliation through Christ. This reminds us that God's justice is balanced with His love, and He desires all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

### 2. **Numbers 25:5-9**

- **Context of the Passage**: In this passage, the Israelites engage in idolatry and immorality, leading to God's anger and a plague among the people. Moses commands the execution of those who have sinned.

- **Crucicentric Interpretation**: This event highlights the seriousness of sin and the consequences of turning away from God. Through the lens of the cross, we see that God's desire is for His people to remain faithful and avoid the destructive consequences of sin. The execution of judgment serves as a warning against the dangers of idolatry and immorality. The cross ultimately reveals God's heart for redemption, showing that while judgment is necessary, His desire is for repentance and restoration. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross provides a means for believers to be cleansed from sin and to live in obedience to God.

### 3. **Deuteronomy 20:14-18**

- **Context of the Passage**: In this section, God instructs the Israelites to destroy certain nations completely, emphasizing that these nations have led Israel into sin.

- **Crucicentric Interpretation**: This command can be challenging to understand, but through the lens of the cross, we see that God's actions are aimed at establishing a holy people who reflect His character. The destruction of the Canaanites serves as a warning against the corrupting influence of sin. The cross reveals God's ultimate plan for redemption, where Christ's sacrifice provides a way for all people to be reconciled to Him. This emphasizes that God's desire is not for destruction but for a relationship with humanity. The call to remove the corrupting influences parallels the call for believers today to turn away from sin and pursue holiness.

### 4. **Theological Implications**

- **God's Justice and Mercy**: The crucicentric interpretation emphasizes that God's justice is always accompanied by His mercy. While judgment was necessary for the Canaanites, the cross reveals God's willingness to forgive and restore those who turn to Him. This duality of justice and mercy is central to understanding God's character.

- **Foreshadowing of Christ**: The events surrounding the conquest of Canaan can be seen as foreshadowing the ultimate victory over sin and evil through Christ. Just as the Israelites were called to remove the corrupting influence of the Canaanites, Christ's sacrifice on the cross provides a way for believers to be cleansed from sin and to live in the newness of life (Romans 6:4).

### Summary

In summary, a crucicentric interpretation of the destruction of the Canaanites, Numbers 25:5-9, and Deuteronomy 20:14-18 emphasizes God's justice in dealing with sin while highlighting His desire for mercy and redemption. The cross serves as the ultimate revelation of God's heart for humanity, calling us to repentance and a deeper relationship with Him. It challenges us to reflect on our own lives and the importance of pursuing holiness while recognizing the grace available through Christ.”
 
Jul 24, 2016
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#23
Yes, because they were cursed rather than blessed, but they lost goodness when they exercised volition to believe the serpent rather than question God, which sin was manifested outwardly by partaking of the forbidden fruit that resulted temporally in experiencing evil/cursing.
Well if you believe that they lost their good status with God when they obtained the knowledge of good and evil then the following scriptures we see God describing little ones who had at the time no knowledge of Good or evil.. This was when the Hebrews where about to enter the promised land but then rejected the good report from Joshua and Caleb refused to enter the Land.. God then forced the Hebrews t wander in the desert for 40 years so that the rebellious generation would die there and the next generation would then enter the promised land..

(Deuteronomy 1:37-39) "Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither. {38} But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. {39} Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

So this statement came out of The LORDs mouth to Moses.. when He said their Little ones who at the time of the rebellion had no knowledge between good and evil would be allowed to enter the promised land.. This means that little ones have no knowledge of good and evil for a time and thus if they die they are totally acceptable to exist in eternity with God having never sinned.. Because to really sin one must have knowledge of good and evil..
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#24
Well if you believe that they lost their good status with God when they obtained the knowledge of good and evil then the following scriptures we see God describing little ones who had at the time no knowledge of Good or evil.. This was when the Hebrews where about to enter the promised land but then rejected the good report from Joshua and Caleb refused to enter the Land.. God then forced the Hebrews t wander in the desert for 40 years so that the rebellious generation would die there and the next generation would then enter the promised land..

(Deuteronomy 1:37-39) "Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither. {38} But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. {39} Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

So this statement came out of The LORDs mouth to Moses.. when He said their Little ones who at the time of the rebellion had no knowledge between good and evil would be allowed to enter the promised land.. This means that little ones have no knowledge of good and evil for a time and thus if they die they are totally acceptable to exist in eternity with God having never sinned.. Because to really sin one must have knowledge of good and evil..
They have peace with God without need of a Savior?
 
Jul 24, 2016
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#25
They have peace with God without need of a Savior?
Why do you and i need a Savior ? Because we both have sinned and need the Atonement of the LORD Jesus to pay the penalty we deserve. So if a little one dies before they come to the knowledge of good and evil and therefore have never sinned, do they need the Atonement of the LORD Jesus? I say No.. I believe the Bible says no..
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#26
Why do you and i need a Savior ? Because we both have sinned and need the Atonement of the LORD Jesus to pay the penalty we deserve. So if a little one dies before they come to the knowledge of good and evil and therefore have never sinned, do they need the Atonement of the LORD Jesus? I say No.. I believe the Bible says no..
So when the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there are some this doesn't apply to?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#27
So when the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there are some this doesn't apply to?
Is the Bible talking to the little ones who cannot even read? It's talking to us who can read and hear and understand..
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#28
So when the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there are some this doesn't apply to?
Jesus, babies, and those who do not have the maturity level or ability to be able to discern right from wrong such as little children, or those who are permanently born with the mindset of an innocent little child.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#29
Is the Bible talking to the little ones who cannot even read? It's talking to us who can read and hear and understand..
So...all doesn't mean all in Romans 6:23? Does all mean all in 1 Timothy 2:4 where it says God desires all men to be saved?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#30
Jesus, babies, and those who do not have the maturity level or ability to be able to discern right from wrong such as little children, or those who are permanently born with the mindset of an innocent little child.
So why do they need to be born from above to enter the kingdom of heaven?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#32
So...all doesn't mean all in Romans 6:23? Does all mean all in 1 Timothy 2:4 where it says God desires all men to be saved?
(Romans 6:23) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Yes the price of sin is death.. But if one has not sinned they do not need to pay the price and the LORD Jesus does not need to pay the price for them either..

(1 Timothy 2:4) "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Men.... All men.. Does it say infants?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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#33
Why do you and i need a Savior ? Because we both have sinned and need the Atonement of the LORD Jesus to pay the penalty we deserve. So if a little one dies before they come to the knowledge of good and evil and therefore have never sinned, do they need the Atonement of the LORD Jesus? I say No.. I believe the Bible says no..
It may be useful to the children for future sins, after resurrection, if doubts about God's faithfulness are possible for the saints after the return of Christ. The sacrifice of the Lamb is a perpetual sacrifice, so avails for all humans at all times without an expiry date.

Also, physical death was destroyed through the death and resurrection of the Lamb, and children inherit mortality through the sin of Adam, even if they haven't sinned, so to be resurrected needed the sacrifice, even for them.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#34
Well if you believe that they lost their good status with God when they obtained the knowledge of good and evil then the following scriptures we see God describing little ones who had at the time no knowledge of Good or evil.. This was when the Hebrews where about to enter the promised land but then rejected the good report from Joshua and Caleb refused to enter the Land.. God then forced the Hebrews t wander in the desert for 40 years so that the rebellious generation would die there and the next generation would then enter the promised land..

(Deuteronomy 1:37-39) "Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither. {38} But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. {39} Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

So this statement came out of The LORDs mouth to Moses.. when He said their Little ones who at the time of the rebellion had no knowledge between good and evil would be allowed to enter the promised land.. This means that little ones have no knowledge of good and evil for a time and thus if they die they are totally acceptable to exist in eternity with God having never sinned.. Because to really sin one must have knowledge of good and evil..
The problem is that we have no knowledge from Scripture that those too young to be morally accountable, repent of sin and exercise volition to have saving faith qualify for heaven, but because they would not deserve hell either, the remaining possibilities are either that they simply pass out of existence or else they are judged on the basis of God's foreknowledge regarding what they would have done/believed if they had survived into the stage of accountability.

Right?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#36
(Romans 6:23) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Yes the price of sin is death.. But if one has not sinned they do not need to pay the price and the LORD Jesus does not need to pay the price for them either..

(1 Timothy 2:4) "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Men.... All men.. Does it say infants?
Just as God imputes the righteousness of Christ upon those who believe, He also imputed the unrighteousness of Adam on all who come into this world. We all come into this world dead in trespasses, are dominated by Satan, and are under the wrath of God...Ephesians 2:1-3.
We need a Savior the moment we are conceived; not the moment we sin for the first time.