Some of the OT can be hard to stomach

[Believer08]

Some of the OT passages can be difficult to stomach. Especially where God tells Saul to destroy nations (which would include babies and animals in 1 Samuel 15), when He told Moses to hang people before the LORD against the sun in Numbers 25:4, and the stuff in Deuteronomy 20:13-17.

Anyone have any advice on how to harmonize those passages with the holiness and goodness of God?

 

[Believer08]

Any thoughts @GWH @TrustandObey @Lamar?

 

[Dino246]

God is just as well as good. He punishes sin, and because He had a purpose to bring forth the Messiah, He wasn't about to let anyone destroy His people Israel, from without or within.

In 1 Samuel 15, God instructed Saul to destroy the Amalekites, who had been giving Israel serious trouble since the Exodus. God was executing judgment upon them through Saul.

In Numbers 25, the Israelites committed idolatry, and God executed judgment on the leaders of Israel who had led the people into that heinous sin.

In Deuteronomy 20, God distinguished between the cities outside Canaan and the cities within, and between cities that surrendered and cities that resisted. As for the Canaanites, their sin had reached its full measure (see Gen. 15:16), and God was executing judgment upon them through Israel.

 

[Gideon300]

Some of the OT passages can be difficult to stomach. Especially where God tells Saul to destroy nations (which would include babies and animals in 1 Samuel 15), when He told Moses to hang people before the LORD against the sun in Numbers 25:4, and the stuff in Deuteronomy 20:13-17.

Anyone have any advice on how to harmonize those passages with the holiness and goodness of God?

People need to take God seriously. If He chose, He could wipe out the whole world and be completely justified. God's covenant with Israel was both blessing and cursing. Obey, and all will be well. Disobey, and not so good. The nations that God told Israel to destroy were unspeakably evil. It was also certain that any survivors would be as wicked and would lead the people of Israel into evil also. Ahab, for example, sacrificed his own child to a false god. He was led astray by Jezebel.

God's goodness is that anyone is allowed to live. If I was God (be glad I'm not), I would have destroyed everyone including Noah. The flood was God's judgement, the ark God's mercy.

We should have a healthy respect for God. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. We also need to see the love of God for us who are sinners and deserving only oh His judgement. If you want to see how much God hates sin, look at the cross. If you want to see how much God loves sinners, look at the cross.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Some of the OT passages can be difficult to stomach. Especially where God tells Saul to destroy nations (which would include babies and animals in 1 Samuel 15), when He told Moses to hang people before the LORD against the sun in Numbers 25:4, and the stuff in Deuteronomy 20:13-17.

Anyone have any advice on how to harmonize those passages with the holiness and goodness of God?

Apparently they were of bad bloodlines for God to have them wiped out, kinda like those in Noah's day. We wouldn't want them for neighbors.

 

[Jeremiah33v3]

Some of the OT passages can be difficult to stomach. Especially where God tells Saul to destroy nations (which would include babies and animals in 1 Samuel 15), when He told Moses to hang people before the LORD against the sun in Numbers 25:4, and the stuff in Deuteronomy 20:13-17.

Anyone have any advice on how to harmonize those passages with the holiness and goodness of God?

1.) Actually read the Bible.
Everyone has "Contradictions" or "Unsavory passages"
The issue is, no one reads the Bible in full.
For example, what happened in Numbers 25? Well go back a few chapters to Baalam and Balak... And they were trying to curse the Jews and eradicate them... And God warns them, those who curse Israel will be cursed and those who bless Israel will be blessed... And what do they continue to do? They keep trying to CURSE ISRAEL!
Or all the passages where God tells Israel not to marry women outside Israel...

No one reads the Bible for what it is... Everyone is on youtube and gets all these random verses out of context.


2.) Dispensationalism. The Jews are UNDER the law. Not under grace! John 1:17
The Jews are not under grace, they have to live and abide by the law for their righteousness Deuteronomy 6:25.

3.) God was right to do all of that.
Everyone today is this lovey-dovey, feel-good, nothing-bad "Christian" that get their feelings hurt if someone even looks at them incorrectly.
There are some HORRENDOUS things in Scripture, if these passages offend you, don't go and read Judges...
People have lost sight of who God is and what Righteousness is.
We are sinners and deserve death. By the grace of God we have escaped that through His death on the cross and resurrection from the grave.

4.) There is NOTHING to "Harmonize" with the goodness and righteousness of God.
The issue is, you have replaced the God of the Bible with a Hollywood movie.
Galatians 3:24
God is not the modern laodicean "love is love" hippy thing.

HE IS RIGHTEOUS AND PURE! And we are wicked and evil and we deserve to be eradicated and the ONLY reason we ain't, is because of His mercy.
The issue is not the passages, the issue is you have been brainwashed by modern "Christianity".

 

[Believer08]

The issue is, you have replaced the God of the Bible with a Hollywood movie

You will be ignored for speaking falsely against me…you have outright lied against me.

FWIW, I actually agree with your overall answer, despite the lie about me…as well as telling me I don’t read the Bible…simply for asking questions…

 

[Hakawaka]

This is easy for me to stomach. Whats harder for me to stomach is to "love your enemies" and not revenge and bless people. It just goes against nature so much.

 

[PaulThomson]

Some of the OT passages can be difficult to stomach. Especially where God tells Saul to destroy nations (which would include babies and animals in 1 Samuel 15), when He told Moses to hang people before the LORD against the sun in Numbers 25:4, and the stuff in Deuteronomy 20:13-17.

Anyone have any advice on how to harmonize those passages with the holiness and goodness of God?

I would recommend you read a two volume work by Greg Boyd called "The Crucifixion of the Warrior King."

Essentially, He argues for a crucicentric (Cross-centred) hermeneutic. Jesus is "the brightness of God's glory, and the express image of His person", The incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Jesus is the clearest revelation of God's natureand will, The cross is the clearest revelation of the wisdom and power of God.

Externally, superficially, in the cross we seem to be seeing something grotesque and obscene, something cruel and unjust. But when the Holy Spirit opens our understanding we see a beautiful expression of God's condescending love for his creation. Greg Boyd shows how we can look at the "difficult to stomach Old Testament passages" with sanctified eyes and understanding, to see even in those accounts, examples of God's condescending love for His creatures, rather than the superficial appearance of cruelty and violence.

Those two substantial volumes are well worth the read IMHO.

 

[GWH]

Any thoughts @GWH @TrustandObey @Lamar?

If a person cannot explain how a loving God could order the execution of babies, then possibly He did not do so. If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a problematic passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will (such as JSH 6:17-24, 8:2&24 & 10:28-40, 11:6-23), then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.

Regarding the passages in Joshua, it should be noted that the Gibeonites were allowed to live because they agree to serve the Israelites (and presumably converted from idolatry), and because God does not show favoritism (RM 2:11), God would have allowed the other Canaanites to live if they had done the same.

For those who refused to cooperate with God's plan of salvation for the Jews, genocide was justified, because there were no adoption agencies back then.

 

[Adstar]

Some of the OT passages can be difficult to stomach. Especially where God tells Saul to destroy nations (which would include babies and animals in 1 Samuel 15), when He told Moses to hang people before the LORD against the sun in Numbers 25:4, and the stuff in Deuteronomy 20:13-17.

Anyone have any advice on how to harmonize those passages with the holiness and goodness of God?

Have a read of the NT book of Revelation and read the kinds of stuff that is predicted to happen during the end times.. You will find it reveals times will be far more terrible then the stuff you have mentioned above..

Many people don't realize how frightening it is that God is Perfect.. God would be justified in eliminating all the people on planet earth.

As for the deaths of the Children.. The way i can handle it is by knowing that the innocent who die are with God because they are acceptable to Him in eternity.. Think a bit.. If those innocents had been spared and their parents had been killed would those Children have suffered because of the loss of their parents? YES The actual punishment was upon their parents, letting the kids continue in this world without their parents would have been punishment upon the innocent.. But now they are in Gods perfect eternity surrounded by the pure love of the LORD.. They are in paradise..

 

[GWH]

Have a read of the NT book of Revelation and read the kinds of stuff that is predicted to happen during the end times.. You will find it reveals times will be far more terrible then the stuff you have mentioned above..

Many people don't realize how frightening it is that God is Perfect.. God would be justified in eliminating all the people on planet earth.

As for the deaths of the Children.. The way i can handle it is by knowing that the innocent who die are with God because they are acceptable to Him in eternity.. Think a bit.. If those innocents had been spared and their parents had been killed would those Children have suffered because of the loss of their parents? YES The actual punishment was upon their parents, letting the kids continue in this world without their parents would have been punishment upon the innocent.. But now they are in Gods perfect eternity surrounded by the pure love of the LORD.. They are in paradise..

Yes, God determines what is both loving and just.
He eliminated everyone on earth except Noah's family,
and everyone is eliminated one by one as they die,
but God is determined to create brethren for Christ,
who love everyone as much as He does,
and so God determines that souls are like Him,
having volition or moral free will or faith,
and He is grieved when sinners reject grace.

Regarding the destiny of children who die before becoming morally accountable?
That is an interesting question, because there is no clear or explicit Scriptural basis
for saying they get a free pass into heaven, although that seems to be a nice idea.

 

[Adstar]

Regarding the destiny of children who die before becoming morally accountable?
That is an interesting question, because there is no clear or explicit Scriptural basis
for saying they get a free pass into heaven, although that seems to be a nice idea.

Question when did humans lose their ""Good"" status with God.. Remember God said when He had finished creation that it was Good..

(Genesis 1:31) "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

So when did Adam and Eve lose their "Good Status" with God? If you read the story you will conclude that they lost it when they came to know the knowledge of good and evil.. Do you think this is an accurate assesment of what happened GWH?

 

[tourist]

Apparently they were of bad bloodlines for God to have them wiped out, kinda like those in Noah's day. We wouldn't want them for neighbors.

Not in my backyard anyway.

 

[CommodoreTeach]

Some of the OT passages can be difficult to stomach. Especially where God tells Saul to destroy nations (which would include babies and animals in 1 Samuel 15), when He told Moses to hang people before the LORD against the sun in Numbers 25:4, and the stuff in Deuteronomy 20:13-17.

Anyone have any advice on how to harmonize those passages with the holiness and goodness of God?

These people were guilty of sacrificing their own children in the fire to Molech and other demonic abominations posing as gods. The defenseless children were basically sacrificed alive and barbecued to death. God's command to wipe these people out is better than they deserved. If left to me, I would have put them through a similar punishment to what they did to their children. God is very merciful.

As for the children, far better to be killed humanely than burned alive (which would have been the fate that awaited any that survived).

 

[GWH]

Question when did humans lose their ""Good"" status with God.. Remember God said when He had finished creation that it was Good..

(Genesis 1:31) "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

So when did Adam and Eve lose their "Good Status" with God? If you read the story you will conclude that they lost it when they came to know the knowledge of good and evil.. Do you think this is an accurate assessment of what happened GWH?

Per GN 3:4, the serpent contradicted God/GW and thereby tempted Adam and Eve to commit the first sin. In GN 2:17, God had told Adam and Eve they would die if they ate fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but the serpent introduced the option of ungodliness or functional atheism, which they chose.

The first or original sin was not eating physical fruit, but rather choosing not to doubt the Devil, not to cooperate with God, and not asking God why the serpent contradicted what He had told them (MT 7:7). It is wise to question God.

Per GN 3:7-13 Adam and Eve tried to cover up their crime, refusing to accept responsibility for their mistakes. They should have confessed immediately (1JN 1:9). Instead their ungodly attitude was manifested by a chain of sins, including their silly attempt to hide from God and to blame someone else and very likely “dysfunctional” parenting that probably contributed to the emotional disturbance (anger) in Cain that resulted in the murder of Abel and so on and so forth through the millenniums (cf. humanity’s sinful “King of the Hill”/KOTH strife).

P.S. Notice that A&E were created as adults rather than as innocent Children, so they were good before the fall but not perfect.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Not in my backyard anyway.

No backyard BBQ's for sure, we could be on the Barbie😂

 

[Believer08]

We have to remind ourselves that the people who got destroyed had plenty of chances to repent, but they refused. None of that had to have happened and could have been avoided if they had followed God. He is able to look through time and knows when a culture has no light left in them to be motivated to change. Their iniquity was complete. I fully believe that. They squandered their chances. The adults became utterly depraved to the core that it’s no telling what all they were doing besides sacrifices and other abominable customs. They got exactly what they deserved.

 

[GWH]

Question when did humans lose their ""Good"" status with God.. Remember God said when He had finished creation that it was Good..

(Genesis 1:31) "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

So when did Adam and Eve lose their "Good Status" with God? If you read the story you will conclude that they lost it when they came to know the knowledge of good and evil.. Do you think this is an accurate assessment of what happened GWH?

Yes, because they were cursed rather than blessed, but they lost goodness when they exercised volition to believe the serpent rather than question God, which sin was manifested outwardly by partaking of the forbidden fruit that resulted temporally in experiencing evil/cursing.

 

[GWH]

We have to remind ourselves that the people who got destroyed had plenty of chances to repent, but they refused. None of that had to have happened and could have been avoided if they had followed God. He is able to look through time and knows when a culture has no light left in them to be motivated to change. Their iniquity was complete. I fully believe that. They squandered their chances. The adults became utterly depraved to the core that it’s no telling what all they were doing besides sacrifices and other abominable customs. They got exactly what they deserved.

Yes, although Joshua did not bother to explain that very well,
(thereby causing our upset stomach :^)