Some things about the law that need explaining.

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,264
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113
#1
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him? Did Jesus change the law when He came? Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ? Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#2
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him? Did Jesus change the law when He came? Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ? Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
  1. The Law was only given to Israel. It forms the conditions of a Covenant. But the Nations surrounding Israel would have seen and heard of its Giver and of the blessings and curses attached.
  2. Jehovah never intended men to accept Him because of Law. He is to be accepted by looking at the creation (Rom.1:18-20; Rev.11:6-7)
  3. Our Lord Jesus did not change the Law when He came. But because of the gospel of reconciliation, He asked His disciples to forego their rights. After Israel rejected Him and the New Man was revealed, the Law FOR THE NEW MAN (not Israel) was abolished in Christ's crucifixion
  4. The Law requires just recompense. That is its basis. The Offerings extended God's forgiveness for SOME Laws. Other Laws were broken unto death. The injured Party, whether God or man, could extend forgiveness if he wanted to.
  5. There is no such thing as a Symbolic Christ
  6. Grace cannot be believed in. It is either extended or not.
  7. The New Covenant is for Israel (Jer.31.31-33). Its conditions are the same Laws as the first Covenant. The difference is that the Israelite is given a new spirit and a new heart. He will intrinsically tend to keep the Law and thus fulfill the Covenant
  8. The Church has no part of the Law. For the Ex-Gentile he was never under it, and for the Ex-Jew it is nailed to the cross with Jesus
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,759
15,493
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#3
If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on
this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another
priest to appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron?
For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well.
Heb 7:11-12
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,527
113
#4
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him? Did Jesus change the law when He came? Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ? Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
Israel was given the word of God and commanded to give it to the nations.

The law can only bring knowledge of sin.

There is no forgiveness for sin apart from Gods grace. No man can deny Christ and have forgiveness for his sin.

The NT testifies that Christ long promised has come and made Himself the sacrifice for sin. Salvation is through Christ alone. OT faith that God would send Christ. NT faith that God has fulfilled His promise in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
6,998
3,458
113
#5
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him? Did Jesus change the law when He came? Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ? Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him?
The law was handed down through Moses to the Israelites. The gentiles we're a law unto themselves explained in Romans 2. And ancient Israel had very strict assimilation procedures for a gentile to adopt the Jewish customs.

Did Jesus change the law when He came?
He came to fulfill the old. He actually made clarifications. Like saying you must forgive 70×7 in one day. Or in marriage just looking at another person in lust was considered adultery. He essentially was like, you think following your laws are hard, try to become perfect. It exposed everyone's need for a Savior.


Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ?
It would be pointless until they accepted their Messiah.

Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
if they have not accepted Christ Jesus then no.

Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
We have moral, ceremonial, judicial, and subcompact laws.

Moral laws are universal and timeless. Moral laws are representative of God who is also timeless. So any moral laws in the old are still just as relevant then as they are today.

The other 3 are no longer binding but are still considered holy as in they still can provide us wisdom on living under the new covenant. We are now under the law of grace. But the old teaches us of God's character and reminds us of our sins. It sheds light on what is considered a sin and why we will never keep the whole law. Without Christ, the law is all we would have.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
19,318
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#6
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him?
This is not an either/or question. Yes, the law was given only to Israel.

Exodus 19:3b-6 The LORD called to him [Moses] from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."


In Exodus 34:27, God says, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Contrast this with Exodus 33:2 "I will drive out the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite." The same six peoples are identified in Exodus 34:11.

Why would you think that God would "drive out" these peoples instead of giving them His law as well? There is no record in Scripture that the Law was given to any other nation or group of gentiles. God made provision for individual gentiles to join with Israel, but they would have been few in number and never able to participate fully in the religious life of the community.

Did Jesus change the law when He came?

No, He did not "change the law"; rather, He fulfilled the law; there is a difference. Because Jesus fulfilled the law, there was no longer a need for it. In its place He instituted the new covenant in His blood. The old covenant was put aside, as it had fulfilled its purpose. Hebrews 8 tells us that the new covenant is better than the old covenant (v. 6) and that the old is obsolete (v. 13) and getting ready to disappear, which it did at the destruction of the temple and the Levitical system in 70 AD.

Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ?

Yes, anyone can ask for forgiveness, but that doesn't mean he receives it. The Jew who has not recognized Jesus as Messiah has no relationship with God on which to make such a request. God has made no commitment to forgive outside of Christ.

Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?

What is "the symbolic Christ"? The Jew can believe in grace all he likes, just as an ignorant person might believe that they will get into heaven if their personal moral balance sheet is in the black, but that's not truth, and he is not forgiven.

Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
Respectfully, I think you're playing with terms. The commandments, the feasts, the sabbath, the sacrifices, the restrictions, and everything else are a unit: one Law. You break the least of the commandments, and you have broken the Law (James 2:10). Hebrews 8:5 tells us that the old testament priests were serving a copy and shadow. Verse 7 tells us, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second." The law is not "guidance"; it is commands. You either follow them all, or you are a lawbreaker; Paul explains that in Romans 2.


I would encourage you to read Hebrews 8 several times and let it sink in. :)
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#7
This is not an either/or question. Yes, the law was given only to Israel.

Exodus 19:3b-6 The LORD called to him [Moses] from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

In Exodus 34:27, God says, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Contrast this with Exodus 33:2 "I will drive out the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite." The same six peoples are identified in Exodus 34:11.

Why would you think that God would "drive out" these peoples instead of giving them His law as well? There is no record in Scripture that the Law was given to any other nation or group of gentiles. God made provision for individual gentiles to join with Israel, but they would have been few in number and never able to participate fully in the religious life of the community.


No, He did not "change the law"; rather, He fulfilled the law; there is a difference. Because Jesus fulfilled the law, there was no longer a need for it. In its place He instituted the new covenant in His blood. The old covenant was put aside, as it had fulfilled its purpose. Hebrews 8 tells us that the new covenant is better than the old covenant (v. 6) and that the old is obsolete (v. 13) and getting ready to disappear, which it did at the destruction of the temple and the Levitical system in 70 AD.


Yes, anyone can ask for forgiveness, but that doesn't mean he receives it. The Jew who has not recognized Jesus as Messiah has no relationship with God on which to make such a request. God has made no commitment to forgive outside of Christ.


What is "the symbolic Christ"? The Jew can believe in grace all he likes, just as an ignorant person might believe that they will get into heaven if their personal moral balance sheet is in the black, but that's not truth, and he is not forgiven.


Respectfully, I think you're playing with terms. The commandments, the feasts, the sabbath, the sacrifices, the restrictions, and everything else are a unit: one Law. You break the least of the commandments, and you have broken the Law (James 2:10). Hebrews 8:5 tells us that the old testament priests were serving a copy and shadow. Verse 7 tells us, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second." The law is not "guidance"; it is commands. You either follow them all, or you are a lawbreaker; Paul explains that in Romans 2.

I would encourage you to read Hebrews 8 several times and let it sink in. :)
I don't agree with everything, but I think that this was a good posting.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,421
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#8
It seems so far everyone has a great understanding of the Law and whoi it was given for and it's purpose I'm really proud of you guys
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#9
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him?
He gave it to Israel. If a gentile wanted to take a part in the blessing promised to Israel, they had a list of things they had to according to the law. but the law was given to Israel. Jonah did not demand ninevah follow the law when they repented.


Did Jesus change the law when He came?
he fulfilled the law. So that those who use the law properly as a tutor may be saved. Then he gave us a better covenant, one which is superior to the covenant of the law

Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ?
he can, but it will do him no better than animal sacrifice if he does not have Jesus, it will do him no good. He will still be lost



Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
symbolic christ? Without Christ there is no salvation. As the word says, no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved, that goes for the, too. A jew who does not believe in Christ still believes in law. not grace


Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law? the only guidance the law gave is to lead people to Christ.
The law is useless to those in Christ, as it has no ability to guide us in the ways of righteousness
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
4,172
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#10
Was the law only given to Israel or did the Lord want the gentiles to listen and accept Him? Did Jesus change the law when He came? Can a Jew ask for forgiveness, as he does every day, when he hasn’t recognized Christ? Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ?
Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law?
You are asking questions in a fashion that indicates you wish a desired end to your own thoughts. I do wish people would just be clear about things and not attempt to push people or put words in their mouth. :confused: (I am sure you will say otherwise)

1. The law was given to Moses to give to Israel. God told the Israelites to utterly destroy every single person, man, woman and child, living in the land He was going to give to Israel, so it is more than a little doubtful God did not have Gentiles in mind when He declared the law to the people He had chosen.

2. Jesus fulfilled the law. Why would God give a law that changes? If you think the original one was hard to keep, then how would people even attempt to obey one that was fickle? Strange question IMO.

3. Anyone can ask for forgiveness, but I do not see how anyone would even bother to ask God for forgiveness unless the Holy Spirit was working in their life. There is forgiveness only through the blood of Christ which was given for the specific purpose of fulfilling all the obligations of the law. So, a person must therefore conclude that God will not forgive unless a person comes to Him through their faith in Christ, God's eternal gift to sinners that He determined and gave.

4. Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ? What? What grace? Unless you are discussing Messianic believers, there is no grace. You wish to discuss law over and over and over, so surely you recognize the fact there is no GRACE under law, but rather only condemnation since no one can keep it and further, the law was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. Galatians 3:19.

5. Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law? God has now given us His Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks the LAW is a better teacher, has no conception of why Jesus died.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#11
You are asking questions in a fashion that indicates you wish a desired end to your own thoughts. I do wish people would just be clear about things and not attempt to push people or put words in their mouth. :confused: (I am sure you will say otherwise)

1. The law was given to Moses to give to Israel. God told the Israelites to utterly destroy every single person, man, woman and child, living in the land He was going to give to Israel, so it is more than a little doubtful God did not have Gentiles in mind when He declared the law to the people He had chosen.

2. Jesus fulfilled the law. Why would God give a law that changes? If you think the original one was hard to keep, then how would people even attempt to obey one that was fickle? Strange question IMO.

3. Anyone can ask for forgiveness, but I do not see how anyone would even bother to ask God for forgiveness unless the Holy Spirit was working in their life. There is forgiveness only through the blood of Christ which was given for the specific purpose of fulfilling all the obligations of the law. So, a person must therefore conclude that God will not forgive unless a person comes to Him through their faith in Christ, God's eternal gift to sinners that He determined and gave.

4. Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ? What? What grace? Unless you are discussing Messianic believers, there is no grace. You wish to discuss law over and over and over, so surely you recognize the fact there is no GRACE under law, but rather only condemnation since no one can keep it and further, the law was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. Galatians 3:19.

5. Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law? God has now given us His Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks the LAW is a better teacher, has no conception of why Jesus died.
Aaaahhh! Refreshing. A saint who understands Law.

By Law comes the knowledge that a fallen man cannot keep it. If he is guilty of one, he is guilty of all. If he is guilty of all, the curses in their full brunt are applied to him. By the Law (which was designed to life) is only the knowledge of sin and subsequent death. A just God exacts just judgment - and who will stand in that day? The Law came by Moses , BUT GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus. What folly to think that one can establish a righteousness acceptable to God by oneself? Let us about turn and walk away from any semblance of the Law of Moses.
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
4,172
2,347
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#12
Aaaahhh! Refreshing. A saint who understands Law.

By Law comes the knowledge that a fallen man cannot keep it. If he is guilty of one, he is guilty of all. If he is guilty of all, the curses in their full brunt are applied to him. By the Law (which was designed to life) is only the knowledge of sin and subsequent death. A just God exacts just judgment - and who will stand in that day? The Law came by Moses , BUT GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus. What folly to think that one can establish a righteousness acceptable to God by oneself? Let us about turn and walk away from any semblance of the Law of Moses.
I don't know. I think Jesus just helped me make sense of it all. ;) I agree with what you wrote above.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,264
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#13
It is strange that we all read the same scripture and understand it to say different things. I don't think people are taking into consideration the purpose God had for creating Israel. They were to keep knowledge of God, and that was because the nations had forgotten Him, and it was essential to the nations that the knowledge of God be retained. Israel was created for the gentiles, as caretakers of God. God cannot be separated from His attributes, and the law explains some of those attributes.

People are not taking into consideration that there was grace given to mankind from the day Adam and Eve disobeyed. All say that Israel had no grace given, and also it was stripped from them when Christ was born and they did not recognize Him. They still believed in a Messiah, they still believed in grace, but as I read Romans carefully, it makes me wonder if God has forgotten Israel the nation.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God [e]in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The view of symbols that the old testament is so full of is also looked at differently than it seems to me the Lord is using them. I think it is important to understand the spiritual meaning of the symbols used in the old testament, and how God used them to explain the spiritual to people who were not all given the holy spirit to help them understand. The book of Revelation also is written through symbols.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,811
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#14
The law was given to Israel but it applies to all man kind. Those who die outside of Christ die in their sins.
We all know that it is appointed for man to die once then the judgement.
Jesus as the high priest offered himself and not the blood of bulls and goats not for himself but for all that believe.
Jesus being that perfect sacrifice and presenting the perfect sacrifice fulfilled the law according to the order of Melchizedek. For jesus was from the tribe of Judah.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,264
1,954
113
#15
You are asking questions in a fashion that indicates you wish a desired end to your own thoughts. I do wish people would just be clear about things and not attempt to push people or put words in their mouth. :confused: (I am sure you will say otherwise)

1. The law was given to Moses to give to Israel. God told the Israelites to utterly destroy every single person, man, woman and child, living in the land He was going to give to Israel, so it is more than a little doubtful God did not have Gentiles in mind when He declared the law to the people He had chosen.

2. Jesus fulfilled the law. Why would God give a law that changes? If you think the original one was hard to keep, then how would people even attempt to obey one that was fickle? Strange question IMO.

3. Anyone can ask for forgiveness, but I do not see how anyone would even bother to ask God for forgiveness unless the Holy Spirit was working in their life. There is forgiveness only through the blood of Christ which was given for the specific purpose of fulfilling all the obligations of the law. So, a person must therefore conclude that God will not forgive unless a person comes to Him through their faith in Christ, God's eternal gift to sinners that He determined and gave.

4. Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ? What? What grace? Unless you are discussing Messianic believers, there is no grace. You wish to discuss law over and over and over, so surely you recognize the fact there is no GRACE under law, but rather only condemnation since no one can keep it and further, the law was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. Galatians 3:19.

5. Did the new covenant cancel any guidance the Lord gives us through telling of His law? God has now given us His Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks the LAW is a better teacher, has no conception of why Jesus died.
Just as you post (thank you!) your understanding, I would like to post mine even though it is sometimes different from your understanding.

1. I think that it does not prove that God did not love and want the gentiles to know Him when he asked to wipe the land given Israel clean of all people of sin. God knew they were hopelessly dead from sin, would never accept Him, and it was sin God wanted to clean the land from.

2. I disagree with your idea of Christ fulfilling the law so we must not listen to it any longer. It is fulfilled and made complete, it is made so we are forgiven for breaking it through Christ.

3. I agree forgiveness is through Christ.

4. I don't understand you concept of grace. You say there was no grace, and scripture tells us that the reaction to the first disobedience was to give us Christ. Christ was only symbolic in the sacrificial system and that system was incomplete until Christ was born.

5. I agree that with the new covenant, we are given the law in our hearts through the holy spirit, not through rituals.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#16
It is strange that we all read the same scripture and understand it to say different things. I don't think people are taking into consideration the purpose God had for creating Israel. They were to keep knowledge of God, and that was because the nations had forgotten Him, and it was essential to the nations that the knowledge of God be retained. Israel was created for the gentiles, as caretakers of God. God cannot be separated from His attributes, and the law explains some of those attributes.

People are not taking into consideration that there was grace given to mankind from the day Adam and Eve disobeyed. All say that Israel had no grace given, and also it was stripped from them when Christ was born and they did not recognize Him. They still believed in a Messiah, they still believed in grace, but as I read Romans carefully, it makes me wonder if God has forgotten Israel the nation.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God [e]in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The view of symbols that the old testament is so full of is also looked at differently than it seems to me the Lord is using them. I think it is important to understand the spiritual meaning of the symbols used in the old testament, and how God used them to explain the spiritual to people who were not all given the holy spirit to help them understand. The book of Revelation also is written through symbols.
God, in His infinite wisdom, installed a new government on earth in Adam. Adam decided to join the old governor in a rebellion. God is so good at all that He does that He does not have to change His basis. He will achieve His grand purpose with the earth by still being joined to man. To start this wonderful work, he takes one idol-worshiping man from Chaldea and gives him PROMISES that tie in with another Promise - that it would be the "seed of a woman" who defeated the mechanisms of the rebel governor.

In the full foreknowledge that Israel would fail, He raises up a nation from Abraham's loins. This Nation, Israel, is beloved above all other Nations DESPITE their behavior. God adds the high privilege of dwelling WITH this Nation - something He does not do with any other Nation. For the high task of hosting the very God of this universe, Israel are given a set of rules wherby they must live by to (i) make them holy (separate), (ii) make them ritually clean, and (iii) to keep the Land free of pollutions. In return, the Almighty promised to bless them above every Nation.

We know the sad outcome. Israel ended up NO NATION, subject to the other Nations, hounded by their haters and scared of their own shadows. And yet this loving God, Who has been so let down by His People, set in motion a plan to fully recover them. The Covenant with Abraham PROMISED them the Land, fame, protection and prosperity. The Covenant with Israel at Sinai caused them to be ejected from the Land. But God knew all this, and more. He knew that Israel would refuse their Savior. So God, in mercy and grace, sets before them the way to recovery that they KNOW - the Law. Deuteronomy 30:1-4 reads;

1 "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:"


On "that day" Moses was expounding the Law. It is vital, for God's honor, that Israel be restored. He has PROMISED them a Land and blessings. He must uphold these PROMISES. And He He must set forth a way that takes into account that they will reject the primary Savior. We Christians have Jesus, and we can have a measure of security. But is it not also our duty also to uphold God's honor before men? Shall we not be familiar with how God will act in the future to keep HIS Promises? Shall we not have an answer for the infidel who questions the integrity of our God?

The Law has no value for us Christians. It is nailed to the cross of Jesus. But it has huge value for Jehovah FIRST, and Israel second. The Law, in the above passage, is clearly Israel's path to glory. Israel's recovery is accomplished by Jesus Christ's sublime WORKS, but yet without them acknowledging Him. The Law is vital for Israel. The Law is their lifeline to Messianic glory. The Law is God's vehicle to recover His wayward seed of Abraham. It is fully involved in Israel's recovery, and it is fully involved in their everyday life during the Messianic age. In Matthew our Lord Jesus said that He would fulfill the Law. But Israel have not yet fulfilled the Law. So note the grammar of Matthew 5:17-18.

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."


There is no talk of destroying the Law by Jesus. He rather fulfills it. Then, because Israel fail to fulfill it, IT REMAINS IN ITS ENTIRETY UNTIL ISRAEL FULFILL IT. The passing of the heavens and the earth is 1,000 years after Christ Messiah returns (Rev.20). For one thousand years, Israel, under the New Covenant of THE SAME LAW, keep it and so FULFILL IT. Let us Christians not involve ourselves with this Law. Christ has fulfilled it for us and imputed this to us. But let us maintain a deep respect for it as God's vehicle to recover and restore a People who were so lost!
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,264
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#17
The Law has no value for us Christians. It is nailed to the cross of Jesus.
!
I think this statement is so untrue that it makes all your understanding of no value.

I believe in all of God, and you cannot believe is God being Holy, God being all the psalms tell of him, and discount anything that is part of the Lord.

We are to listen to the Lord, and never say things of the Lord has no value, not ever. God tells us of His laws in scripture after scripture, we are to read these words with the help of the Holy Spirit for understanding of them.

When the Lord told us they were nailed to the cross, God was not saying He made a part of Him, as His laws are, of no value. The cross takes away the death that disobedience of law brings on, in that way it is nailed to the cross.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#18
I think this statement is so untrue that it makes all your understanding of no value.

I believe in all of God, and you cannot believe is God being Holy, God being all the psalms tell of him, and discount anything that is part of the Lord.

We are to listen to the Lord, and never say things of the Lord has no value, not ever. God tells us of His laws in scripture after scripture, we are to read these words with the help of the Holy Spirit for understanding of them.

When the Lord told us they were nailed to the cross, God was not saying He made a part of Him, as His laws are, of no value. The cross takes away the death that disobedience of law brings on, in that way it is nailed to the cross.
I think this view is so u true. It just goes to prove you have no understanding of the law. Because if you did you would not make such a statement
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,759
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#19
It is strange that we all read the same scripture and understand it to say different things. I don't think people are taking into consideration the purpose God had for creating Israel. They were to keep knowledge of God, and that was because the nations had forgotten Him, and it was essential to the nations that the knowledge of God be retained. Israel was created for the gentiles, as caretakers of God. God cannot be separated from His attributes, and the law explains some of those attributes.
Israel's purpose was to bring forth mankind's Savior.
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
4,172
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#20
Just as you post (thank you!) your understanding, I would like to post mine even though it is sometimes different from your understanding.

1. I think that it does not prove that God did not love and want the gentiles to know Him when he asked to wipe the land given Israel clean of all people of sin. God knew they were hopelessly dead from sin, would never accept Him, and it was sin God wanted to clean the land from.

2. I disagree with your idea of Christ fulfilling the law so we must not listen to it any longer. It is fulfilled and made complete, it is made so we are forgiven for breaking it through Christ.

3. I agree forgiveness is through Christ.

4. I don't understand you concept of grace. You say there was no grace, and scripture tells us that the reaction to the first disobedience was to give us Christ. Christ was only symbolic in the sacrificial system and that system was incomplete until Christ was born.

5. I agree that with the new covenant, we are given the law in our hearts through the holy spirit, not through rituals.

The first problem is your understanding that the Bible is up for various interpretations with regards to salvation/law/Christ's complete and finished work on the cross. There is no interpretation. Those items are not up for debate. You either understand that the law is designed to condemn you or you think you have something to add to Christ's complete and finished work.

so, with that in mind:

1. God did not address Himself to Gentiles during the times recorded in the OT. A Gentile could convert to Judaism, but notice that Gentile could not remain as he was. He/she had to become Jewish and follow all that the Jews had to follow. There was not covenant with Gentiles. The Jews were also hopelessly did in their sins and basically as bad off as Gentiles. The Jews continued to fight and war with the Gentiles around them throughout their history BECAUSE they did not obey God and eradicate those they were to replace in the land God gave them.

2. First off, you are disagreeing with God Himself if you reject Christ's work on our behalf. That is enough to cause a person to question your salvation right there, but obviously, I am not doing so. I am simply pointing out the error you seem to believe. The second thing, is that I DID NOT SAY ignore the law. That is a fabrication on your part. You should stop putting words in people's mouths.

3. I commented further than you acknowledge. I also said: There is forgiveness only through the blood of Christ which was given for the specific purpose of fulfilling all the obligations of the law. So, a person must therefore conclude that God will not forgive unless a person comes to Him through their faith in Christ, God's eternal gift to sinners that He determined and gave. Forgiveness is ONLY through faith in Christ. In order for that to be true, a person cannot follow or demand others follow, the law which condemns rather than saves.

4. I said there is no grace under law. Here it is again: Does the grace he believes in allow him to be forgiven under the symbolic Christ? What? What grace? Unless you are discussing Messianic believers, there is no grace. You wish to discuss law over and over and over, so surely you recognize the fact there is no GRACE under law, but rather only condemnation since no one can keep it and further, the law was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. Galatians 3:19.

4.b You say there was no grace, and scripture tells us that the reaction to the first disobedience was to give us Christ. Yes? what are you talking about? You are talking about Jews one moment, then you switch to Gentiles and seem to mash them together. That is no understanding that is presented by scripture.

5. You say you agree with the New Covenant, but keep inserting law into it. You cannot do that and expect a proper understanding.