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Some things about the law that need explaining.
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Romans 11 is full of references that they are separate, here are some.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
How would you interpret them, if you think they are not separated?
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
How would you interpret them, if you think they are not separated?
The only separation is here:
one side: Those of Israel who reject Christ along with all gentiles who also reject Christ. These are known as unsaved, wicked, faithless.
other side: Those of Israel who accept Christ along with all gentiles who also accept Christ.- this is the body of Christ also called the Bride and the Church.
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Romans 11 is about how Isreal the natural branches, are seperate fro the gentiles, who he calls the unnatural branches. Yet United by the same vines also about how Israel is blinded in part. Yet one day they will all be saved. (The natural branches)
its answering the question paul asked. Is God done with Israel
its answering the question paul asked. Is God done with Israel
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Yet Isreal is called natural, gentiles unnatural. and gentile believers are warned not to be puffed up that they now hold the way, because there will come a time in the future when all Israel (this would include the ones attached to the vine and those who are blind) will repent and they all will be saved,
I think the crux of the chapter is verse 15.
Romans 11:15
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead
There is so much said in this one verse:
1) The people of Israel were cast away from something/someone
2) That casting away led to the reconciling the world (gospel)
3) The people of Israel will be received again to something/someone
4) Receiving them will lead to the raising of the dead (the resurrection)
...and we know that the resurrection includes all those who are "in Christ", which we know as "the body of Christ".
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In chapter 11, Paul shares with us an analogy using an olive tree and branches.
He calls the people of Israel "natural branches" and calls gentile believers "wild branches", saying the natural branches are broken off from their good olive tree while the wild branches are grafted into that good olive tree...but there will come a time when the natural branches will be grafted again into THEIR good olive tree (the olive tree gentile believers are currently grafted onto).
Romans 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree
There's only one good olive tree: the one the natural branches came from that the wild branches are currently nourished by. So they're not separate, the natural branches are simply cast off for now in punishment.
If we relabeled the analogy we can see this:
Good olive tree = Israel, of which Messiah is King
Natural branches = (blood descents) the people of of Israel
Wild branches = gentile believers in Messiah
Romans 11:15
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead
There is so much said in this one verse:
1) The people of Israel were cast away from something/someone
2) That casting away led to the reconciling the world (gospel)
3) The people of Israel will be received again to something/someone
4) Receiving them will lead to the raising of the dead (the resurrection)
...and we know that the resurrection includes all those who are "in Christ", which we know as "the body of Christ".
----
In chapter 11, Paul shares with us an analogy using an olive tree and branches.
He calls the people of Israel "natural branches" and calls gentile believers "wild branches", saying the natural branches are broken off from their good olive tree while the wild branches are grafted into that good olive tree...but there will come a time when the natural branches will be grafted again into THEIR good olive tree (the olive tree gentile believers are currently grafted onto).
Romans 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree
There's only one good olive tree: the one the natural branches came from that the wild branches are currently nourished by. So they're not separate, the natural branches are simply cast off for now in punishment.
If we relabeled the analogy we can see this:
Good olive tree = Israel, of which Messiah is King
Natural branches = (blood descents) the people of of Israel
Wild branches = gentile believers in Messiah
That's a bit misleading due to KJV archaic english. Natural branches are the original branches of a tree and the wild branches of wild olive trees are simply ones that grow naturally in wildernessness with no cultivation or human intervention. Any wild branches that have faith in Christ are grafted into the cultivated tree (like a tree on a farm or personal garden).
The reason not to be puffed up is given in the passage:
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Verse 19 is replacement theology and branches are wrong that other branches were broken off to include them. Any original branches that are broken off are only broken off due to not accepting Christ. Here Paul speaks against RT. The wild branches JOIN this tree not replace it or any of it's branches.
There is no prophecy that one whole generation will repent and accept Christ. Olive tree is and all it's branches will be saved because they have faith in Christ. Any broken off branches are no longer Israel but are gentiles in spiritual sense.
The reason not to be puffed up is given in the passage:
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Verse 19 is replacement theology and branches are wrong that other branches were broken off to include them. Any original branches that are broken off are only broken off due to not accepting Christ. Here Paul speaks against RT. The wild branches JOIN this tree not replace it or any of it's branches.
There is no prophecy that one whole generation will repent and accept Christ. Olive tree is and all it's branches will be saved because they have faith in Christ. Any broken off branches are no longer Israel but are gentiles in spiritual sense.
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yes I understood this.
bit still Israel is called natural
gentiles are called wild
they are United as being in the five (Christ) but separate as far as distinct peoples
Yes, but his ultimate warning was they not be ignorant of the mystery, unless they be wise in their own opinion (another way to say to boast or to be puffed up)
25: For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
I think you misunderstood, I was speaking of the mystery or all Isreal being saved at a point in time
sorry I can not agree
he is speaking to the gentile church, the wild branches, and telling them not to be wise in their own opinion, that when the time of the gentile has been accomplished all Israel (natural branches) will be saved.
he then confirms this, by saying this Isreal is currently our enemy concerning the gospel. But beloved because of the promise (the abrahamic promise given to Isaac and Jacob)
bit still Israel is called natural
gentiles are called wild
they are United as being in the five (Christ) but separate as far as distinct peoples
Yes, but his ultimate warning was they not be ignorant of the mystery, unless they be wise in their own opinion (another way to say to boast or to be puffed up)
25: For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
I think you misunderstood, I was speaking of the mystery or all Isreal being saved at a point in time
sorry I can not agree
he is speaking to the gentile church, the wild branches, and telling them not to be wise in their own opinion, that when the time of the gentile has been accomplished all Israel (natural branches) will be saved.
he then confirms this, by saying this Isreal is currently our enemy concerning the gospel. But beloved because of the promise (the abrahamic promise given to Isaac and Jacob)
Yeah, I guess you could say that...although to complete the view, I would say:
God always meant Israel to be those who believed in the gospel.
Those who believed in the gospel become Israel.
There's a remnant of "natural-born" elected to regraft into Israel at the right time (because of Almighty's love for the patriarchs)
Once that happens, all Israel (both "natural" and "wild") will have been saved.
God always meant Israel to be those who believed in the gospel.
Those who believed in the gospel become Israel.
There's a remnant of "natural-born" elected to regraft into Israel at the right time (because of Almighty's love for the patriarchs)
Once that happens, all Israel (both "natural" and "wild") will have been saved.
Yep, that is the "sophisticated" form of replacement theology I mentioned in this other thread here.
https://christianchat.com/threads/replacement-theology.195824/post-4417770
Its a very common view held by many Christians, so I can understand where you are coming from.
https://christianchat.com/threads/replacement-theology.195824/post-4417770
Its a very common view held by many Christians, so I can understand where you are coming from.