Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[eternally-gratefull]

hey, Greenie.

since you quoted what the Lord Jesus said to His disciples (the Apsotles)
i was wondering if you knew of anyone in scripture to whom Jesus said that who did not do what He commanded?

those men left everything...their families, their belongings, their jobs, to follow Christ.
we don't have indication that they knew Him well before this.
they just DID it, yeah?

why do you suppose that was?

thanks,
ellie

Ever heard of Jonah? He disobeyed for a long time. God had to have him swallowed by a fish before he would obey. And even then, it took him three days to say yes..

Ever heard of Saul? He disobayed Gods commands alot.. Or how about King soloman. Who was given the law and told what not to do as king, and did not obey a one of them.

How many examples do ya want?

Why did they do it? they trusted Jesus.. They had faith. Faith caused them to work. Same with Paul. Same with every believer in Scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12




[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Nice post bro. I think the highlighted part says it all

 

[Abiding]

Nice post bro. I think the highlighted part says it all

Jesus said "they" would not come into the light because they were not chosen, opps
i meant because their deeds(heart intent etc) were evil and they didnt want them exposed.

Jesus said that "they" wouldnt see with "their" eyes, or hear with "their" ears.
The judgement on that was to make them not see and not hear lest they get saved.

Jesus said if you dont receive more light(understanding) that which you have will
be taken away. If your light(understanding) is dark(ignorance) than how great is your darkness(ignorance)

I need to make a list of what Jesus taught about soritology past being drawn by the Father.

 

[Elin]

It might be a time for a rethink of what exactly you are trying to accomplish
if your trying to teach, or get high fives.
If your trying to teach be careful of retorts, which slams the door shut on the ears
of the student. Unless you only want to strengthen their own present belief.

Are ya' tryin' to discourage another objectionable thread?

 

[cfultz3]

It might be a time for a rethink of what exactly you are trying to accomplish
if your trying to teach, or get high fives.
If your trying to teach be careful of retorts, which slams the door shut on the ears
of the student. Unless you only want to strengthen their own present belief.

Words of wisdom. Thanks Abiding.

 

[unclefester]

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined, He also called, and those whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”.

This thread and topic is tormenting me. I find it extremely difficult to come up with a mutually acceptable answer for either side of this argument. Any previous attempts I have made, either publicly or in private to a friend has left me with the dubious distinction/feeling of being "master of the obvious" ... and most notably for my answers falling far short of satisfying the question. What all of this comes down to (in my mind anyways) is this : Do we even have the right to question the fairness of God ... whether it is us who chooses ... or God Who has predestined us ? Is God's greatness subject to the scrutiny and limited understanding of man ? If it is our freewill choice to choose, was not this very choice itself pre-destined ... or at the very least foreknown before the earth was even formed ? And if this is so, how does that make God any "fairer" in any sense of understanding ? What makes you or I deserving of the tremendous blessing of trusting in Jesus Christ ? Our belief ? If we are justified in questioning God's methods and reasons ... His who's, His why's and where's, .... is it any more objectionable for non-believers to question God's chosen method of imputing His righteousness upon those of us who've done nothing to deserve it but believe ? Does the unbeliever have any less right to question God's methods if he or she views them as unfair ? They too, after all, are using human reasoning. The more I consider this topic, the more humbling it is to even consider that God has made a way for us. I understand that it might help when we witness for the cause of Christ to be able to say in black and white that this is so because of such and such. But maybe ... just maybe God's desire is that we trust Him completely even when He hasn't given us an answer that might fully satisfy our question(s) ?

*** Hiya EG

 

[Bookends]

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined, He also called, and those whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”.

This thread and topic is tormenting me. I find it extremely difficult to come up with a mutually acceptable answer for either side of this argument. Any previous attempts I have made, either publicly or in private to a friend has left me with the dubious distinction/feeling of being "master of the obvious" ... and most notably for my answers falling far short of satisfying the question. What all of this comes down to (in my mind anyways) is this : Do we even have the right to question the fairness of God ... whether it is us who chooses ... or God Who has predestined us ? Is God's greatness subject to the scrutiny and limited understanding of man ? If it is our freewill choice to choose, was not this very choice itself pre-destined ... or at the very least foreknown before the earth was even formed ? And if this is so, how does that make God any "fairer" in any sense of understanding ? What makes you or I deserving of the tremendous blessing of trusting in Jesus Christ ? Our belief ? If we are justified in questioning God's methods and reasons ... His who's, His why's and where's, .... is it any more objectionable for non-believers to question God's chosen method of imputing His righteousness upon those of us who've done nothing to deserve it but believe ? Does the unbeliever have any less right to question God's methods if he or she views them as unfair ? They too, after all, are using human reasoning. The more I consider this topic, the more humbling it is to even consider that God has made a way for us. I understand that it might help when we witness for the cause of Christ to be able to say in black and white that this is so because of such and such. But maybe ... just maybe God's desire is that we trust Him completely even when He hasn't given us an answer that might fully satisfy our question(s) ?

*** Hiya EG

“For those [Those, Plural, not one person, but a group] whom He foreknew [It was God's plan to have a people unto Himself, OT church and NT Church, one Church, One people], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son [The Church is predestined], in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers [Again, plural]. And those [plural, the church] whom He predestined, He also called, and those [plural, the church, the sons of God] whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”

IMO, this is not about individual salvation, its about God's plan from the beginning of the foundations of the earth, having a group of people unto Himself.

 

[SarahM777]

Ever heard of Jonah? He disobeyed for a long time. God had to have him swallowed by a fish before he would obey. And even then, it took him three days to say yes..

UMMM Where does the Bible say that Jonah disobeyed for a long time? He was already a prophet and going out and preaching so where did you come up with that? The only thing where the Bible says Jonah disobeyed on was about going to Nineveh.

 

[Elin]

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined, He also called, and those whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”.

This thread and topic is tormenting me. I find it extremely difficult to come up with a mutually acceptable answer for either side of this argument. Any previous attempts I have made, either publicly or in private to a friend has left me with the dubious distinction/feeling of being "master of the obvious" ... and most notably for my answers falling far short of satisfying the question. What all of this comes down to (in my mind anyways) is this : Do we even have the right to question the fairness of God ... whether it is us who chooses ... or God Who has predestined us ? Is God's greatness subject to the scrutiny and limited understanding of man ? If it is our freewill choice to choose, was not this very choice itself pre-destined ... or at the very least foreknown before the earth was even formed ? And if this is so, how does that make God any "fairer" in any sense of understanding ? What makes you or I deserving of the tremendous blessing of trusting in Jesus Christ ? Our belief ? If we are justified in questioning God's methods and reasons ... His who's, His why's and where's, .... is it any more objectionable for non-believers to question God's chosen method of imputing His righteousness upon those of us who've done nothing to deserve it but believe ? Does the unbeliever have any less right to question God's methods if he or she views them as unfair ? They too, after all, are using human reasoning. The more I consider this topic, the more humbling it is to even consider that God has made a way for us. I understand that it might help when we witness for the cause of Christ to be able to say in black and white that this is so because of such and such.

But maybe ...just maybe God's desire is that we trust Him completely even when He hasn't given us an answer that might fully satisfy our question(s)?

It seems to me you have arrived at the Biblical resolution.

Because when it's all said and done, this is the bottom line.

For those who believe, it is all resolved in trusting God completely.

Not because we have created him in our own image,
and so we believe he thinks and acts like we do,

not because his purposes are agreeable to our dispositions,

not because his thoughts are our thoughts, and his ways are our ways (Isa 55:8-9),

but because of the trust wrought in us by the Holy Spirit, through faith and obedience,

which gives us to say with Job, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him." (Job 13:15)

That kind of trust can receive the strong meat of God's word.

And as regards questioning, it doesn't seem that Paul silences all questioning of God by man, for he himself proposes and answers just such questions (Ro 9:14-18, 19-24).
Rather Paul is talking to those with a defiant impenitent attitude, who want to make God answerable to man for what he does.

There are two kinds of questioning, one with a submissive heart which seeks understanding,
and another with a God-defying attitude that calls God to the bar of its justice.

Paul didn't avoid entering into the strong meat of God's counsels,
and since the Holy Spirit is the author of Scripture,
we know these are things God would have us to know,
because he has decided it is good for us to know them.

 

[Abiding]

Are ya' tryin' to discourage another objectionable thread?

Subliminal is my second language Elin. Knock yourself out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

UMMM Where does the Bible say that Jonah disobeyed for a long time? He was already a prophet and going out and preaching so where did you come up with that? The only thing where the Bible says Jonah disobeyed on was about going to Nineveh.

You said show me where someone disobeyed.

I did, who cares if it is one time or another.

Not to mention. If Jonah had no free will. Why did God have to go to suck extreme measures to get him to do what he willed?

 

[zone]

your doctrine teaches faith and hope is a lost cause

it does?
who knew?

 

[SarahM777]

You said show me where someone disobeyed.

I did, who cares if it is one time or another.

Not to mention. If Jonah had no free will. Why did God have to go to suck extreme measures to get him to do what he willed?

UHHH eternally-gratefull I think you are thinking of someone else,all I asked was this

UMMM Where does the Bible say that Jonah disobeyed for a long time? He was already a prophet and going out and preaching so where did you come up with that? The only thing where the Bible says Jonah disobeyed on was about going to Nineveh.

I am not sure who you are trying to respond to but that was not my question.

 

[zone]

"One of you is of The Devil" is what Jesus said at 'The Last Supper.'

that is not when Jesus said that to Judas.
remember?

John 6
I Am the Bread of Life
22On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. 23Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.

25When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?”

The Words of Eternal Life
60When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

UHHH eternally-gratefull I think you are thinking of someone else,all I asked was this

UMMM Where does the Bible say that Jonah disobeyed for a long time? He was already a prophet and going out and preaching so where did you come up with that? The only thing where the Bible says Jonah disobeyed on was about going to Nineveh.

I am not sure who you are trying to respond to but that was not my question.

forgive me, since you responded to my response to A question, I figured it was you who asked it. I guess thats what I get for assuming..lol

 

[zone]

“For those [Those, Plural, not one person, but a group] whom He foreknew [It was God's plan to have a people unto Himself, OT church and NT Church, one Church, One people], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son [The Church is predestined], in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers [Again, plural]. And those [plural, the church] whom He predestined, He also called, and those [plural, the church, the sons of God] whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”

IMO, this is not about individual salvation, its about God's plan from the beginning of the foundations of the earth, having a group of people unto Himself.

so Bookends....are you saying God is doing all those things without knowing exactly which people are going to be saved?

because this part seems to say different (?)

whom He predestined, He also called, and those [plural, the church, the sons of God] whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”

in other words, the question i'm wondering is since He knows the beginning and the end, He would know who will be saved...wouldn't He?
or...no....(?)

He certainly seemed to know about Judas being called, but not saved. because that was foretold a long time before.

so....i dunno.
what do you think? does God already know who will be with Him in eternity?

 

[cfultz3]

it does?

yes

who knew?

apparently, not everyone

P.S. like how I responded with quotes

 

[RickShafer]

Hey Chris! (How ya doing?)

 

[cfultz3]

Hey Chris! (How ya doing?)

Hey there Rickster.

Fine and dandy like a dandelion

And you?

 

[zone]

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined, He also called, and those whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”.

This thread and topic is tormenting me. I find it extremely difficult to come up with a mutually acceptable answer for either side of this argument. Any previous attempts I have made, either publicly or in private to a friend has left me with the dubious distinction/feeling of being "master of the obvious" ... and most notably for my answers falling far short of satisfying the question. What all of this comes down to (in my mind anyways) is this : Do we even have the right to question the fairness of God ... whether it is us who chooses ... or God Who has predestined us ? Is God's greatness subject to the scrutiny and limited understanding of man ? If it is our freewill choice to choose, was not this very choice itself pre-destined ... or at the very least foreknown before the earth was even formed ? And if this is so, how does that make God any "fairer" in any sense of understanding ? What makes you or I deserving of the tremendous blessing of trusting in Jesus Christ ? Our belief ? If we are justified in questioning God's methods and reasons ... His who's, His why's and where's, .... is it any more objectionable for non-believers to question God's chosen method of imputing His righteousness upon those of us who've done nothing to deserve it but believe ? Does the unbeliever have any less right to question God's methods if he or she views them as unfair ? They too, after all, are using human reasoning. The more I consider this topic, the more humbling it is to even consider that God has made a way for us. I understand that it might help when we witness for the cause of Christ to be able to say in black and white that this is so because of such and such. But maybe ... just maybe God's desire is that we trust Him completely even when He hasn't given us an answer that might fully satisfy our question(s) ?

*** Hiya EG

Fester always gets to arrive at the Biblical resolution before i do!