Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[mark54]

sorry bro this does not make sense. the word is the name given to the one who came to earth, and his own received him not.

it does not say he was the word which came from God. it says he is the word which was god. and not only this, he was with god.

kind of hard to get by being God and with God at the same time.

jesus is called the "logos" because scripture as a whole speaks of him and his salvation to restore man to the father. it is all about him.. thus he is given the title "the word" he has many titles in scripture.

OK eG
It seems clear that what you are trying to do is prove Christ is God Himself without addressing the plain scripture on this subject. There is not one scripture in the whole of the bible that states Christ is the one true God, but there is scriptuere that states he is not, however you have said that scripture does not prove Christ is not God. Can you explain to me how you draw that conclusion

I know you people like to theologise much, I am happy to leavew you to it, at the end of the day it will always remain thew plain words of scipture on this subject, agaimnst the reasoning of the academic mind. I would suggest it may m ake more sense to spend less time trying to understand logically and accepting the plain scripture in simple childlike faith+

 

[mark54]

lol.. theology? I am sorry, I do not get this type of argument. and I am not tearing you down or trying to. i hope you know this. I am just getting you to
1. see what I believe
2. get you to think of some things. which you might not know, or maybe you do know..
3. Get your point of view so i know where your coming from.



I asked if it was christ who spoke or not. yes or no.. it is not theology..

I know you wouldn´t try to tear me down eg, the only way you can prove my belief wrong is to prodice plain scripture that states Christ is the one true God, so far you have not
You want to get me to seer some things
I wonder what lol
That the plain words of Christ, Paul and John are wrong on this subject and the theological extrapolations of man are correct
EG, after being on internet websites, I am happy to have simple faith in what is written, not reason according to the little grey cells

 

[zone]

Firstly, Arius believed in the diety of Christ, would you accept him as a Christian, or is diety not the most important thing here?

that would make both you and arius polytheists, and idolators.
if Christ is not God, but 'deity'...well....you and the JDubs.

Yet for us, there is BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST through whom all things came and through whom we live
1Cor8:6

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK eG
It seems clear that what you are trying to do is prove Christ is God Himself without addressing the plain scripture on this subject.

No. I am not doing this at all.. I think you are getting defensive and are not listening to what I am saying, relax bro. I am not trying to condemn you.

There is not one scripture in the whole of the bible that states Christ is the one true God,

one true God is the father. it does not mean there is no more who are God.. your sticking to a few verses and trying to make a whole theological premises on those few verses alone.

but there is scriptuere that states he is not, however you have said that scripture does not prove Christ is not God. Can you explain to me how you draw that conclusion

see above.

I know you people like to theologise much, I am happy to leavew you to it, at the end of the day it will always remain thew plain words of scipture on this subject, agaimnst the reasoning of the academic mind. I would suggest it may m ake more sense to spend less time trying to understand logically and accepting the plain scripture in simple childlike faith+

I am not trying to theologize anything bro. Just trying to take scripture at its word.

Jesus did say the father and spirit sent him. He also said the father would send the spirit.

John did say He was the word. who not only was with God, but was also God himself. and his own received him not.

now do we try to make these scriptures harmonize (yours and mine) or do we try to explain them away? or do we stick to theology? something I am trying to get out of.

 

[zone]

Time for a refresher:

The Biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God was presented in five parts:

I. Introduction - God's foreknowledge, Biblically God's foreknowledge is determinative (here).
Scripture's presentation of events occurring because God's foreknowledge is determinative (Ac 4:28, 2:23) necessarily means that, because his foreknowledge is of all things, then his foreknowledge of all things is determinative.

Then four objections to the sovereignty of God in the actions of men were Biblically addressed and removed:

II. God's sovereignty violates man's free will (here).

III. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for sin when he is unable to obey God (here).

IV. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind guilty of Adam's sin when they did not incure that sin (here).

V. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for their sin when, because of God's operation within their dispositions (hearts), they voluntarily do as God determines (here).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know you wouldn´t try to tear me down eg, the only way you can prove my belief wrong is to prodice plain scripture that states Christ is the one true God, so far you have not
You want to get me to seer some things
I wonder what lol
That the plain words of Christ, Paul and John are wrong on this subject and the theological extrapolations of man are correct
EG, after being on internet websites, I am happy to have simple faith in what is written, not reason according to the little grey cells

my friend,

I do not have to prove Jesus is the one true God. I just have to prove he is equal with God. has the characteristics of God. and the essence of God. (which is what makes him God) and was himself the God of Israel. The one who walked with adam in the garden. The one who spoke to moses in the burning bush. The one who was seen all over the OT.. No one has seen the father. Scripture does not say no one has seen God.

 

[mark54]

my friend,

. Scripture does not say no one has seen God.

No one hath seen God AT ANYTIME
1jOHN4:12

I.LL leave you to theologise that away EG

 

[mark54]

The word of God is

the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh,[/QUOTE

You wanna keep quoting the same thing all the time that has already been responded to on the tritinty thread, np, I can do the same

Now this is eternal life(note what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent

 

[zone]

No one hath seen God AT ANYTIME
1jOHN4:12

I.LL leave you to theologise that away....

why you skip over dis?

ELOHIM

Genesis 32:30
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Exodus 24
9Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.

Judges 13
Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.” 23But his wife said to him, “If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these.”


elohim: God god
Original Word: אֱלֹהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Short Definition: God

and that's only THREE examples.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No one hath seen God AT ANYTIME
1jOHN4:12

I.LL leave you to theologise that away EG

lol theologize.. God singular. Jesus said no one has seen the father. Same God

Yet you ignore the plural usages of the words translated God in the english.. and in doing so.. miss the whole picture.

I do not need theology. Just an open mind and the word of God.

 

[unclefester]

John 5:23 ... that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent Him.

How do we honour the Father but by acknowledging that He is God ? Does/would our Father accept any "honour' from man that does not acknowledge Who He is ... i.e. ... God ? How then are we to honour the Son ... JUST ... (in the same manner) ... as we honour the Father without the same likewise acknowledgement that Jesus is God ?

 

[GreenNnice]

See here how God is telling us He is the Holy Spirit:

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because He hath given us of his (Holy) Spirit.


See here how Jesus = Lord .
See here how God. = Lord .

Remember, too, there is but One, who is "Lord" on planet Earth. HE IS LORD. EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE CONFESS, THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD . Time to sing a song : D

Now, also, before this Philipians' passage is posted, pray for God to reveal the truth of He being the one true God, and, my deepest sympathies to you for your persecution being received by other Christians who know not what they 'seismic' are, what they 'arian,' are NOT doing in love, I, markymark BEEN in your position, too, I used to defend Jesus as seperate, that is what I felt was true, what was taught me growing up.....

Only in the last year point five has God shown me His sovereignty on my life so I can see it, as He's led me, as I worship in spirit (not in soul, not in flesh, they are BOTH sinful as Christ perfects them out of me as I still sin, learning, sin less, and, too, of course, covered of ALL sins past, present, future by His atonement of 'blood.' ) and in truth. His words speak to my spirit now, have since I recognized who the Spirit truly was, after water baptism in 2000. Our God is 'great,' reaches us all in His timing with both revelation and understanding. The Lord leads....we are to follow, just follow, by faith , and, doing His work for us through faith

Your stance on this trinity of God is your feelings, I, personally, see your position through the 'glass' you now see crystal clear.

We can't see God but we can see Jesus, who IS the visible image of the invisible God.

I highlight one word from this Philipians' well-known verse, to understand

I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


God is IN Christ

 

[Abiding]

I was gona discuss some objections with the OP but
i must be in the heresy thread. oppss let me go try to find the
Re: Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man thread

 

[cfultz3]

I was gona discuss some objections with the OP but
i must be in the heresy thread. oppss let me go try to find the
Re: Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man thread

lollol.....that's funny

 

[Elin]

I was gona discuss some objections with the OP but
i must be in the heresy thread. oppss let me go try to find the
Re: Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man thread

Yeah, it's been the heresy thread for too long.

Time to get back to its topic:

Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

The Biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God was presented in five parts:

I. Introduction - God's foreknowledge, Biblically God's foreknowledge is determinative (here).
Scripture's presentation of events occurring because God's foreknowledge is determinative (Ac 4:28, 2:23) necessarily means that, because his foreknowledge is of all things, then his foreknowledge of all things is determinative.

Then four objections to the sovereignty of God in the actions of men were Biblically addressed and removed:

II. God's sovereignty violates man's free will (here).

III. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for sin when he is unable to obey God (here).

IV. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind guilty of Adam's sin when they did not incure that sin (here).

V. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for their actions when, because of God's operation within their dispositions (hearts), they voluntarily do as God determines (here).

 

[mark54]

my friend,

I do not have to prove Jesus is the one true God. I just have to prove he is equal with God. has the characteristics of God. and the essence of God. (which is what makes him God) and was himself the God of Israel. The one who walked with adam in the garden. The one who spoke to moses in the burning bush. The one who was seen all over the OT.. No one has seen the father. Scripture does not say no one has seen God.

You know EG you have just made the point very wellindeed, but not the point you wanted to make.
Firstly, why did Steven say, Moses was sent to bethe leader of the Israelites by God himself, through the angel who appeared tohim in the bush(Acts7:35)
I’m curious, did Steven not realise Moses was sentto be their leader by Christ who appeared to him in the bush? Why did he usethe word angel? Just wondered what your thoughts were on that
As to the main point. Yep, ‘God’ was seen all overthe OT absolutely, we agree. This is what God said to Moses:

See, I am sending an angel aheadof you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.[SUP]21 [/SUP]Pay attention to him andlisten to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive yourrebellion, since my Name is in him.[SUP]22[/SUP]If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I willbe an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you
Ex23:20-23

Next chapter
Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu,and the seventy elders of Israel went up [SUP]10 [/SUP]and saw the Godof Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapislazuli, as bright blue as the sky.[SUP]11 [/SUP]But God did not raise his hand against these leaders ofthe Israelites; they saw God, and theyate and drank.
9-11

Those 74 elders saw the God ofIsrael, and I guess we agree, they saw Christ. We know Christ went with them inthe dessert(1Cor10:4) And we know the Spirit of God’s presence went with them (Isaiah63:9) but God told Moseshe would not go with them(Ex33:2&3)
Christ was the Lord who was withthem on the ground so to speak, on earth.
And so King David said:
The Lord said to MY LORD sit at myright hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet(Psalm110:1)
And Elizabeth said:
Why am I so favoured that themother of MY LORD should come to visit me
Luke1:43
And Thomas, being an Israelitesaid:
My Lord and my God
John 20:28
And you are right, Christ did notcorrect him, how could he?
But now we got a problem(that Isee you have tried to find an answer for)
John said

No man hath seen God AT ANYTIME
1John4:12

And he said it before that
No man hath seen God, AT ANYTIME.The only begotten son who is in the bosom of the Father he hath declared him.
John1:18

Now as you correctly admitted,the bible plainly states no one has seen the Father, Christ himself said that(John6:46) but John is now saying no one has seen God, Can they be speaking ofthe same person? Definitely! But how can they? The God of Israel was with themin the dessert, how can this not be contradiction? Well Christ tells us theanswer Himself
Now this is eternal life. That theymay know you(the Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John17:3
The one true God, the Father hasnever been seen.
Christ had revealed him to us.The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ, and he is the expressimage of his person, but there is still only one true God, the Father.
Paul confirms
Yet for us, there is BUT ONE GOD,THE FATHER, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and ONE LORD JESUSCHRIST, through whom all things came and through whom we live
1Cor8:6

Also
When it says that everything hasbeen put under him, it is clear thisdoes not include God Himself who put everything under Christ
1Cor15:27
SO Paul,John, and Christ all seem to agree, the Father is the only true God, not theSon.

But Iknow EG you won’t accept it, for you cannot can you.
Some(andI only say some) people come onto these websites, as a minister on another sitesaid who think they know. They arehere to proclaim themselves and teach others what they believe they know. Theywant to be seen as knowledgeable, it is in effect all about, me, me, me. Theyhave their cliques, but at the end of the day there is much strife and arguing,due mainly to people wanting to promote themselves, and what they perceive tobe great knowledge they have through much studying and hard work. The HolySpirit takes a back seat, in effect it is a Trinity of Father, Son and theBible.
EG theaverage churchgoer knows far more of what really matters, then the average personwho comes on the internet, of that I am sure
Now youcan come back with whatever scriptures you want. You joined this thread to tryand prove Christ was God because you were upset at comments I had made ofpeople being spirtually immature, etc, and you thought you could discuss it accordingto the little grey cells and ignore the plain scriptures in the process. Youhave ended up confirming the truth, a truth you will never be willing to see,for then you would have to admit you had been wrong, and that you could neverdo.
Youwanna discuss this with me again. Bring me the plain scripture where Christ’swords are contradicted, and it says he is the one true God. For you are tryingto reason according to the mind of man, not Spirit led truth, and never thetwain shall meet

 

[mark54]

John 5:23 ... that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent Him.

How do we honour the Father but by acknowledging that He is God ? Does/would our Father accept any "honour' from man that does not acknowledge Who He is ... i.e. ... God ? How then are we to honour the Son ... JUST ... (in the same manner) ... as we honour the Father without the same likewise acknowledgement that Jesus is God ?

I'll take it then that you think it is just fine and dandy for ministers in Trinitarian churches not to plainly preach clearly from the pulpit what is and what is not acceptable belief as to vwho Christ is unto salvation and the consequences of getting it wrong.
Now personally, if I believed what you do, I could not remain silent, but I guess that is where we differ.

 

[zone]

No man hath seen God AT ANYTIME - 1John 4:12

YOU EVER GONNA ADDRESS THESE PASSAGES?
i'll just keep adding more, i reckon

Genesis 2:22
And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

Genesis 32:30
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

Exodus 24
9Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Judges 13
Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.” 23But his wife said to him, “If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these.”

IN EVERY INSTANCE - LORD / GOD IS ELOHIM

elohim: God god
Original Word: אֱלֹהִים
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: elohim
Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem')
Short Definition: God
plural in number.

elohim: God
Short Definition: God
plural in number

why are you ANTI-TRINITARIAN, Mark?
why have made a career of teaching against the Trinity?
why spend your whole life insisting Jesus is NOT God?
why do you insist on forcing your Arian (Christ a created entity) heresy at this forum, and others?

 

[Abiding]

I'll take it then that you think it is just fine and dandy for ministers in Trinitarian churches not to plainly preach clearly from the pulpit what is and what is not acceptable belief as to vwho Christ is unto salvation and the consequences of getting it wrong.
Now personally, if I believed what you do, I could not remain silent, but I guess that is where we differ.

Mark, i dont understand why people give you trouble. I find nothing wrong with
what you say. And if im not being totally honest with you on that
then let me just poof into vapor

 

[mark54]

Mark, i dont understand why people give you trouble. I find nothing wrong with
what you say. And if im not being totally honest with you on that
then let me just poof into vapor

In my opinion, what should cause you most alarm is anyone who refuses to accept the plain words of Christ as to the requirment of belief in him unto salvation, for then they are rejecting the word of God spoken by Christ, by adding to his requiremnts. And thus they condemn people for standing on the plain words of Christ
I would suggest that should be the first thing that troubles you, then allow other concerns to follow, get things in their correct order