Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[zone]

i erred in derailing Elin's thread Mark
if you want to discuss your love of Arianism, start a new one.
sorry Elin.

 

[Elin]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

Thats fiunny. Jews died by the millions from the second century on because people thought God was done with the jews, and given ALL his promises to the church. The hate propagated by rome continued and spread out, even to people like Hitler who followed Luther.. and claimed he did it in the name of God.

You have no problem with this. But you claim people are dieing over another FALSE belief that I do not promote or preach?

You know what they call this do you not?

Since we're Christians, let's not forget all the Christians of the first century who were done in by unbelieving Jews.

 

[Bookends]

Pretty much the same way your desire to follow Christ and your every day walk is affected by

the visit of the Magi at Jesus' birth,
the flight into Egypt,
his flogging by Pilate,
his crown of thorns,
his mocking by the soldiers,
his rejection by unbelieving Jews,
the anointing of his body for burial,
etc., etc., etc.

So what you are saying is that when I go through similar experiences and trials, I should think that God fore-ordained these things for my good and I should give thanks in awe for everything?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I read it the same as EG. Although i had clearer glasses and see
that the gentiles had their fullness in the church(full status and blessing)


fullness of the gentiles and times of the gentiles are not the same ref bud, two different things.
If you quit making them the same you may form a different outlook

we will have to disagree here bud.. when I speak of Age of the gentile, I do not mean like the dispy's do. I just mean the time referred to in luke 24. One thing about me is I was brought up on the KJV as a kid. so I have a tendancy to still speak that way,, even though I know we do not speak that way today.

Also. When I take daniels prophesies (all) the many other OT prophesies, matt 24 and Luke 21. And romans 11 and rev. I see it all as being the same time, because they all speak of the same things happening in one way or another.

Maybe if you would see it this way, you would see it differently

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Imagine 70ad came along and you had no idea what the heck was going on.
It would seem at least Jesus would have at least mentioned it. ha

Wait! He did. but maybe they thought hmmm maybe while the city was burning they said....whats this?
what Jesus was talking about isnt sposed to happen for a few thousand years.
Not till all the gentiles are done warring or sumptin

lol. it shows how blind they were. They were not only told in the OT 70 AD would happen, they were told by Christ himself.. Talk about being blind!!

 

[cfultz3]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

Since we're Christians, let's not forget all the Christians of the first century who were done in by unbelieving Jews.

Ellin,

What is the difference between killing one another in the flesh and killing someone's soul by condemnation? Wouldn't one still be guilty of murder?

 

[Elin]

i know you don't believe God Fulfilled His Promise of the Deliverer.
you've said it a thousand times and a thousand ways.

you don't believe God released whosoever would from captivity, and that a remnant returned, and were in Israel in time for the birth, life death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, their King, Saviour and Messiah.

their Deliverer out of Zion.

i know you don't believe that.

what has that to do with anything?

faithful Israel (Jacob's faithful people) SAID HERE IS THE CHRIST, AND HE IS JESUS OF NAZARETH.

we are now CHRISTIANS (and our names are Peter, Paul, Andrew, James and so on).

and we were all gathered at Jerusalem, for Pentecost, and the promise of the Spirit was poured out, and one of us JEWS, named Peter, preached the Gospel message he received to all us devout JEWS who were dwelling at Jerusalem, and many of us believed and were baptized and became Christians (we were first called Christians at Antioch) and the Gospel then, after it had come to us JEWS, just like God Promised, went out to all nations and the JEW Paul was appointed Apostle to the Gentiles and the Church was no longer a Mystery hidden from Ages past.

my (Jacob's) faithful family was redeemed. we were rescued from ungodliness, our transgressions were forgiven, everlasting righteousness was brought in for us through Our Kinsman Redeemer Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Emmanuel.

Hosanna! Hosanna! we cried. and Our God delivered us from our slavery and we are no longer exiles and not loved, we are now loved and saved by JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH OUR KINSMAN REDEEMER.

but our brothers of the flesh, we wish we ourselves were cut off for their sake, since all the Good things God gave US JEWS, they had also, but they did not believe God's Plan for us, they believed the Messiah would be a Revolutionary and would murder everyone and give the Power of the Kingdom to us in this earth and we would rule the world from Jerusalem which now is.

but some of us, namely our brother of the flesh, Paul a JEW, told us that:


Galatians 4
Sons and Heirs
1I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,a though he is the owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principlesb of the world. 4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.


and so we faithful of Jacob understood that there was a New Covenant, and Our King had come, and our old ways were no longer remaining because we finally understood that none of that COULD SAVE US, but that it was JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH Whom God appointed to turn us from dead works and toward God and our hearts were pricked and circumcised and we were born again and WE WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT FOR YOU.

Wow!. . .Double WOW!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

Since we're Christians, let's not forget all the Christians of the first century who were done in by unbelieving Jews.

Yep. lets have the two wrongs make a right, excuse what we did. Sound like little kids.. "They killed me first!! So I get to kill them!!

Paul said in rom that it was his prayer that the Jews would be Jealous of the love God shown the gentiles. and this jealousy would turn them from their unbelief.

Oops that did not happen. it is kind of hard making people jealous when you are killing them, instead of showing them the LOVE God says we are to have EVEN for our enemy!

Paul was willing to give his eternity up if that would help them get saved, and stop liking Christians, Stop their ungodliness, and turn to Christ.

I think we should be like him, not like the the church did from the second century all the way up (although not as bad) to today., Wouldn't you??

 

[Elin]

So what you are saying is that when I go through similar experiences and trials, I should think that
God fore-ordained these things for my good and I should give thanks in awe for everything?

That's a great application!

 

[cfultz3]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

it is kind of hard making people jealous (want to listen to you) when you are killing them, instead of showing them the LOVE God says we are to have EVEN for our enemy!

...................

 

[Elin]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

Ellin,

What is the difference between killing one another in the flesh and
killing someone's soul by condemnation? Wouldn't one still be guilty of murder?

I don't know what "killing someone's soul" is.

I find it neither in the word of God nor in our legal system.

 

[cfultz3]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

I don't know what "killing someone's soul" is.

I find it neither in the word of God nor in our legal system.

condemnation.............


oh but it is there....certainly it is...........

 

[mark54]

People who are wise in their own eyes on the internet, who state they are Christians condemn other Christians, I'd hate to see what they would do to they're real enemies!
And I'm not particularly thinking of me in the above, I see it all the time

 

[Bookends]

That's a great application!

But that's not what this tread is about is it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

condemnation.............


oh but it is there....certainly it is...........

remember, That is already predetermined by Gods election. So it does not matter if we kill them or hate them or not.. They won't come to Christ no matter what we do. so why make them see God and help them to understand? Why not just kill them like they killed us



now you see where the mentality comes from.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People who are wise in their own eyes on the internet, who state they are Christians condemn other Christians, I'd hate to see what they would do to they're real enemies!
And I'm not particularly thinking of me in the above, I see it all the time

lol read your history. We got close to a 2000 year record of it..

 

[cfultz3]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

remember, That is already predetermined by Gods election. So it does not matter if we kill them or hate them or not.. They won't come to Christ no matter what we do. so why make them see God and help them to understand? Why not just kill them like they killed us



now you see where the mentality comes from.

not only for the Jew, but for the non-elect. The mentality which gives no hope for those who seek the face of God, but instead, says your faith in Christ was but a waste of your time, now be gone you whom I have predestined for the second death. A mentality which says look what I have done, I have made faith to no prevail.

 

[Elin]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

Yep. lets have the two wrongs make a right, excuse what we did. Sound like little kids.. "They killed me first!!
So I get to kill them!!

Whatever are you talking about?

I didn't kill any Jews, and I'm not acquainted with anyone who did.

it is kind of hard making people jealous when you are killing them, instead of showing them the LOVE God says we are to have EVEN for our enemy!

Where are Christians killing Jews instead of loving them?

You really like drama, don't you?

Paul was willing to give his eternity up if that would help them. . .stop liking Christians, Stop their ungodliness, and turn to Christ.

Is that not the kind of sacrifice Christian missionaries make on the missionary field?

I think we should be like him, not like the the church

Marvellous grasp of the obvious.

Where are we ever told to be like other people?
We are to be like Christ.

What red herring are you beating to death here?

 

[cfultz3]

We are to be like Christ......does that mean we are to condemn also?

 

[Elin]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

condemnation.............


oh but it is there....certainly it is...........

Perhaps you could point out the text which refers to "killing someone's soul" either in Scripture or in our legal system.