Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)

[UnderGrace]

I absolutely believe scripture,

Remember "tongue" correctly translated and understood means language

so then we have....
He that speaketh in a language edifieth himself.

(the word foreign was inserted by the translators to mean a foreign language), because very simply there were many different languages being spoken in Corinth at that time because there we foreigners there who also had been converted and were attending the meetings.

1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself ...

Speaking in tongues edifies (builds up) the one speaking in tongues. That is what Scripture says whether we believe it or not.



1 Cor 14:7 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

Speaking in tongues is giving thanks well. It does not edify others when the manifestation of interpretation of tongues does not follow the manifestation of tongues.

 

[shrume]

I see no evidence in scripture that manifestations are different than gifts in scripture.

The word manifestation is only a different word describing the same thing....which is the gifts of the Holy Spirit
The word means indicator, to display in Greek, they are not separate gifts


phanerosis
1) manifestation[HR][/HR] from 5319; exhibition, i.e. (figuratively) expression, (by extension)
a bestowment:-manifestation.
NETBible: Strong -- 5321

Gifts are not manifestations. God used different words for gifts than He used for manifestations. They mean different things.

If I gave you a light bulb, the light bulb is the gift. That gift has two manifestations: light and heat. I did not give you light and heat, I gave you the light bulb.

If I gave you a Swiss Army knife, the gift is the knife. That knife has many tools that can be used (manifested). Assuming you know about the tools, it's your prerogative to use them.

God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. That gift can be manifested in nine different ways (1 Cor 12:7-10), one of which is speaking in tongues. 1 Cor 14:5 says God would like all Christians to speak in tongues. We are to pray without ceasing. You can't do that in English (assuming English is your native language). You can speak in tongues at almost any time, almost all the time.

 

[shrume]

I absolutely believe scripture,

Remember "tongue" correctly translated and understood means language

so then we have....
He that speaketh in a language edifieth himself.

(the word foreign was inserted by the translators to mean a foreign language), because very simply there were many different languages being spoken in Corinth at that time because there we foreigners there who also had been converted and were attending the meetings.

You are right: "tongue" means language. But the context of 1 Cor 12-14 is manifestations of the Holy Spirit, not speaking native languages.

If you like, you can call the manifestation of speaking in tongues "speaking in languages".

But nobody would know what you were talking about.

 

[UnderGrace]

Alternatively we understand edify to mean build up, how does this happen if one does not understand the words that one speaks?

God communicated with words, Angels communicated with understandable words, the bible was written in understandable words

Glossa means language

In any case, every Biblical instance of interaction between angels and humans demonstrates that angels speak human languages quite capably. In fact, John understood them perfectly well even when they were speaking to each other (See Revelation 7:2).

When Paul states “ the tongues of men and of angels” Paul is using his literary skills to make an example of hyperbole/the superlative used for rhetorical effect to emphasize the superiority of love
Paul does this in many places, example….. and if I have faith, all faith as if to move mountains (superlative/hyperbole) but do not have love I am nothing.

The tongues of angels is not a private prayer language gifted by the Holy Spirit

The Bible does not say that they are "improved or instructed either morally or intellectually." It says they are edified. It says they are magnifying God, it says they are giving thanks well, it says they are praying in the spirit.

 

[shrume]

Correct. Gifts are manifestations and that is made perfectly clear in 1 Cor 12.

1 Cor 12 uses different words for gifts (1 Cor 12:4) and manifestation (1 Cor 12:7).

Gifts can be manifested, but gifts are not manifestations.

Words mean things.

 

[UnderGrace]

This indicator, manifestation, gift served a central role in the spreading of the gospel and to build up the new church.

So important to understand the context within which Paul is writing to the church in Corinth

I am not a cessionist because I believe if the gift was needed somewhere to promote the gospel where two people did not have the same language He could certainly bestow this gift.

The gift of tongues is not a private prayer language of the Holy Spirit

You are right: "tongue" means language. But the context of 1 Cor 12-14 is manifestations of the Holy Spirit, not speaking native languages.

If you like, you can call the manifestation of speaking in tongues "speaking in languages".

But nobody would know what you were talking about.

 

[shrume]

Alternatively we understand edify to mean build up, how does this happen if one does not understand the words that one speaks?

I believe the Bible.

1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

God communicated with words, Angels communicated with understandable words, the bible was written in understandable words

Absolutely true.

Glossa means language

In any case, every Biblical instance of interaction between angels and humans demonstrates that angels speak human languages quite capably. In fact, John understood them perfectly well even when they were speaking to each other (See Revelation 7:2).

The purpose for speaking in tongues is not to converse with people (or angels).

When Paul states “ the tongues of men and of angels” Paul is using his literary skills to make an example of hyperbole/the superlative used for rhetorical effect to emphasize the superiority of love

Paul is stating that even though a person speaks in the tongues of men or of angels, if he is not doing it out of love, he's just making noise.

Paul does this in many places, example….. and if I have faith, all faith as if to move mountains (superlative/hyperbole) but do not have love I am nothing.

If God gives you revelation that you can move a mountain, you can move a mountain.

The tongues of angels is not a private prayer language gifted by the Holy Spirit

When a person speaks in tongues (a manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit), he is speaking a language of men or of angels.

 

[shrume]

This indicator, manifestation, gift served a central role in the spreading of the gospel

Speaking in tongues is not a missionary tool. Its purpose is not to spread the gospel.

and to build up the new church.

Speaking in tongues builds up the church today, and when spoken in private, it builds up the individual.

So important to understand the context within which Paul is writing to the church in Corinth

The letters to the Corinthians were written to the Christian church at Corinth to address several issues, one of which was their misuse of the manifestations. Paul corrected them. Some Pentecostal groups today should read what's in 1 Cor 14. If they did, they would not do some of the things they do (all speak in tongues at once, no interpretation, rolling on the floor, "holy laughter", etc).

All Christians today should read and apply the things that are written in all of Paul's letters to all the churches.

(granted, some cultural issues do not apply today).

I am not a cessionist because I believe if the gift was needed somewhere to promote the gospel where two people did not have the same language He could certainly bestow this gift.

Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with missionary work.

The gift of tongues is not a private prayer language of the Holy Spirit

Tongues is not a gift, it is a manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 14:
14) For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[shrume]

Gosh I'm glad you guys came to this thread.

Why?

They are cessationists. They do not believe speaking in tongues exists any more. They do not understand it. Because of that, they speak against it.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well yes I would agree to some extent, yet the manifestation is the outward indicator of the gift that is already there the Holy Spirit.

Manifestation is the observable part of the gift and that is all. It is still the gift.

Praying without ceasing to be Christ centered, in Him, He in Us, it is not about words or language.

Gifts are not manifestations. God used different words for gifts than He used for manifestations. They mean different things.

If I gave you a light bulb, the light bulb is the gift. That gift has two manifestations: light and heat. I did not give you light and heat, I gave you the light bulb.

If I gave you a Swiss Army knife, the gift is the knife. That knife has many tools that can be used (manifested). Assuming you know about the tools, it's your prerogative to use them.

God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. That gift can be manifested in nine different ways (1 Cor 12:7-10), one of which is speaking in tongues. 1 Cor 14:5 says God would like all Christians to speak in tongues. We are to pray without ceasing. You can't do that in English (assuming English is your native language). You can speak in tongues at almost any time, almost all the time.

 

[UnderGrace]

Not true, it is about properly understanding what glossa is and what it is not.

I speak for a correct understanding of Paul's instructions to the church at Corinth

Why?

They are cessationists. They do not believe speaking in tongues exists any more. They do not understand it. Because of that, they speak against it.

 

[shrume]

Not true. Let every believer read this verse to see Paul is not saying that God would, but Paul was speaking for himself.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]5 [/SUP]I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

I believe what Paul wrote in the Bible is God-breathed.

Our brother, shrume, has trouble reading that verse in any other way than God saying He would prefer all to speak in tongues

No, in the church, God would rather have us prophesy, because "greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."

That does not negate that God would like all Christians to speak in tongues.

and yet it was Paul citing his preference.... AND Paul deferred from that his initial preference by citing something else that Paul prefer they do INSTEAD, and that was not to seek the gift of tongues, but to seek the gift of prophesy.

One more time: He who prophesies is greater than the person who speaks in tongues "except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying"

Our brother, shrume, cannot see Paul's message of pushing believers to seek the gift of prophesy over tongues out of that chapter.

What I can see is that because of your ignorance you are forbidding people from speaking in tongues.

 

[CherieR]

John 6:[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.[SUP] 39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.The fact that you link salvation to Pentecostal laying on of hands for other believers to receive the Holy Spirit and tongues, is why I link this topic in teaching about tongues to be used privately in the same category as teaching Romans Catholicism.It should be troubling to all non-tongue speakers how the tongue speakers do not get on your case for saying that. They strive against those who speak against tongues, but do little to address the heresy that has come with tongues.It should be no wonder why non-tongue speakers do not want to have anything to do with it as tongues privately is linked to apostasy that denies Him and our resting place in Christ Jesus when we had come to & believed in Him the first time when we were saved at the initial calling of the gospel.So keep holding the Holy Spirit and tongues out of reach of professing believers such as me, because I am not going to believe you not one bit.1 Corinthians 1:[SUP]14 [/SUP]I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;[SUP] 15 [/SUP]Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.[SUP]17 [/SUP]For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God....[SUP]21 [/SUP]For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.Since water baptism does not save, then the laying on of hands by a Pentecostal cannot save. It is believing the gospel is how any one is saved as all the epistles to the churches testify which you do not see from your doctrines derived from Acts.Ephesians 1:[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[SUP] 12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.[SUP] 13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,I do not see any emphasis of laying on of hands for that promise of the Holy Spirit to come; it was trusting the Lord in believing in Him is how we are saved in how we had received the promise of the sanctification of the Spirit.2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.What you teach is not the tradition nor the gospel taught to the churches. What you teach was derived from assumptions on events that happened in the Book of Acts, and that is why it opposes the scripture in the epistles, brother. So repent.

Whether you speak in tongues or not has nothing to do with if you are saved or not. Just because someone may speak in tongues, does not mean they are filled with the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit as mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23, is evidence of someone who is filled with the Spirit as well as giving of thanks. It is shaky ground to use tongues as the evidence that you are saved. Salvation is all about faith and trust in Christ and in his sacrifice to redeem.A good majority of people who speak in tongues will not say that you have to speak in tongues to show that you are saved. Some may say that, but many would disagree with that.

 

[shrume]

Not true, it is about properly understanding what glossa is and what it is not.

I firmly believe, based on what you have stated, that you do not understand what speaking in tongues is.

I speak for a correct understanding of Paul's instructions to the church at Corinth

You need to have a correct understanding before you can speak about it.

 

[UnderGrace]

So then languages (glossa) is unintelligible speech according to what you have said below?

It is a private prayer language which the prayer cannot understand, if I am understanding you correctly?

You believe that this is what was happening in Corinth, and this manifestation of the Holy Spirit of unintelligible speech is what Paul is writing about when he wrote the word glossa?

Speaking in tongues is not a missionary tool. Its purpose is not to spread the gospel.


Speaking in tongues builds up the church today, and when spoken in private, it builds up the individual.


The letters to the Corinthians were written to the Christian church at Corinth to address several issues, one of which was their misuse of the manifestations. Paul corrected them. Some Pentecostal groups today should read what's in 1 Cor 14. If they did, they would not do some of the things they do (all speak in tongues at once, no interpretation, rolling on the floor, "holy laughter", etc).

All Christians today should read and apply the things that are written in all of Paul's letters to all the churches.

(granted, some cultural issues do not apply today).


Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with missionary work.


Tongues is not a gift, it is a manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 14:
14) For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[shrume]

Whether you speak in tongues or not has nothing to do with if you are saved or not.

That's true.

Just because someone may speak in tongues, does not mean they are filled with the Spirit.

A person cannot speak in tongues unless he is born of the Holy Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit as mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23, is evidence of someone who is filled with the Spirit as well as giving of thanks. It is shaky ground to use tongues as the evidence that you are saved.

I do not agree.

Salvation is all about faith and trust in Christ and in his sacrifice to redeem.

That's right. When a person hears the gospel and believes it, he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, and has the ability to operate the manifestations of that gift.

A good majority of people who speak in tongues will not say that you have to speak in tongues to show that you are saved. Some may say that, but many would disagree with that.

Anyone who says you have to speak in tongues to be saved is wrong. There are many, many wonderful Christians who have never spoken in tongues.

But that does not change what the Bible says (1 Cor 14:5).

 

[UnderGrace]

I beg to differ,

I have researched extensively the historical and scriptural basis, just a study on Corinth the historical city is enough to cast doubt on this interpretation of scripture

As well, study the roots of this manifestation and the historical documents of Mr Charles Parham will reveal lots.

Then looking at what Paul is writing, all his words in these chapters, which will show very clearly what he was writing about and it was not unintelligible speech, nor a language of angels, but the same gift of languages seen in Acts.

I firmly believe, based on what you have stated, that you do not understand what speaking in tongues is.


You need to have a correct understanding before you can speak about it.

 

[shrume]

So then languages (glossa) is unintelligible speech according to what you have said below?

Speaking in tongues is speaking a language -you- do not know (1 Cor 14:2). It does not mean someone in some other part of the world would not understand it. They might. Or not. You could be speaking a "dead" language, or a language of angels.

It is a private prayer language which the prayer cannot understand, if I am understanding you correctly?

That is correct. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14). And if he's in his church, it's likely that the rest of the people there will not understand either (most people in meetings speak the same language). That's why when tongues is spoken out loud in a meeting, it must be interpreted, so the church can understand what was said, and be edified.

You believe that this is what was happening in Corinth, and this manifestation of the Holy Spirit of unintelligible speech is what Paul is writing about when he wrote the word glossa?

Basically, yes. I believe that Paul was writing about the manifestation of speaking in tongues, and that the Christians in Corinth were misusing it. People were all speaking at once, and nobody was interpreting.

 

[shrume]

I beg to differ,

I have researched extensively the historical and scriptural basis, just a study on Corinth the historical city is enough to cast doubt on this interpretation of scripture

You are certainly free to have your opinion.

As well, study the roots of this manifestation and the historical documents of Mr Charles Parham will reveal lots.

Not to be trite, but I prefer to trust what the Bible has to say about it.

Then looking at what Paul is writing, all his words in these chapters, which will show very clearly what he was writing about and it was not unintelligible speech

Tongues is always unintelligible to the person speaking (1 Cor 14:2), and almost always unintelligible to others who hear it, which is why when tongues is spoken in public, it must always be interpreted.

nor a language of angels

Tongues can be a language of angels (1 Cor 13:1).

but the same gift of languages seen in Acts.

Exactly! (except tongues is not a gift, it is a manifestation.)

In 1 Cor 2-14, Paul is writing about the identical manifestation that's written about in Acts 2, 10 and 19.

On the day of Pentecost, to underscore the significance that something wonderful had just taken place, the languages given to the 12 apostles were the languages of other people who were at Jerusalem for the feast. The apostles were speaking in tongues, and did not know what they were saying. But other people present did. They heard the 12 speaking in their own languages (proof that tongues are not gibberish) the wonderful works of God.

That is not guaranteed, and indeed, it almost never happens (but occasionally it does..), which is why we are instructed in 1 Cor 14 that when a person speaks in tongues in public, it must be interpreted.

 

[UnderGrace]

Brings me back to my question, language at its very basic level is about communication, how does an unknown language prayed privately edify, it cannot.

The word properly translated is not, interpretered but translated. The unknown language is to be translated for the benefit of those who do not know the language

Very simply glossa always means real language Paul was writing about foreign languages that were present in the congregation and he was giving instruction on how to make it so everyone could understand what was being said. There is also much evidence that ecstatic speech from the temple prostitutes who had been converted was also present.

Paul was calling for intelligibility. He is appealing for clarity. When we say something in public worship, the people in the congregation need to understand the message. If I speak/pray out loud in Italian and know one is there to translate than pray quietly to myself, that is all he is saying.

It really is that simple

If you were raised speaking other languages you would understand this very crucial point.

Speaking in tongues is speaking a language -you- do not know (1 Cor 14:2). It does not mean someone in some other part of the world would not understand it. They might. Or not. You could be speaking a "dead" language, or a language of angels.


That is correct. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14). And if he's in his church, it's likely that the rest of the people there will not understand either (most people in meetings speak the same language). That's why when tongues is spoken out loud in a meeting, it must be interpreted, so the church can understand what was said, and be edified.


Basically, yes. I believe that Paul was writing about the manifestation of speaking in tongues, and that the Christians in Corinth were misusing it. People were all speaking at once, and nobody was interpreting.