Speaking in tongues
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Here is the scripture that I am using and I will make another post to explain my understanding of it so that this one is not too long.
1 John 4
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 John 4
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
The scripture says that anything that denies Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God. Now to me this means in word or deed. Jesus is the Word of God and any spirit that comes to you and denies his message, or what he taught and has the spirit of the world then it is denying him.
The devil is tricky he is not going to just come up to most people and deny that Jesus came in the flesh with words, but he will deny him in deeds. If a spirit goes against Jesus’ words and teachings, any of the NT scriptures, or tells anyone to go against any of the scripture then it is denying Jesus through deeds and it is not of God… it is a wrong spirit.
Now this is just my understanding on this scripture and what I have been taught about it.
The devil is tricky he is not going to just come up to most people and deny that Jesus came in the flesh with words, but he will deny him in deeds. If a spirit goes against Jesus’ words and teachings, any of the NT scriptures, or tells anyone to go against any of the scripture then it is denying Jesus through deeds and it is not of God… it is a wrong spirit.
Now this is just my understanding on this scripture and what I have been taught about it.
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Big difference between spiritual gifts not seen the eternal and others that some call sign gifts as that seen the temporal .
Remember without parables the signified language of God using the formula below, the Holy Spirit speaks not .Hiding the spiritual understanding from the temporal, unconverted.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18
Remember without parables the signified language of God using the formula below, the Holy Spirit speaks not .Hiding the spiritual understanding from the temporal, unconverted.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18
Have to be careful with that. The demons believe and have a emotional response...…. they shutter. He has come in the flesh .It must be more than just acknowledging.
like for instance some false prophets espouse he will come again in the flesh .So then it is not is come, but will come .I think one demonstration of the lamb of God who was already slain from the foundation of the world is suffice.
like for instance some false prophets espouse he will come again in the flesh .So then it is not is come, but will come .I think one demonstration of the lamb of God who was already slain from the foundation of the world is suffice.
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Yeah, I've seen many people who think that scripture means that a wrong spirit or the devil is just going to come up to you and deny him in words and say Jesus isn't real.
To me, it is plain that even the devils believe in him and tremble...Legion recognized him right off and said what do we have to do with you Son of God. Have you came to torture us before our time, and also the Bible plainly tells us that the demons believe and tremble.
The devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may kill, steal, and destroy...so I'm not expecting him to walk up to me and come clean and tell me that he is the devil so just do as he says...No, I'm pretty sure that's not how he gets most people. He can transform himself as an angel of the light...but he will deny the teachings of Jesus in some way so that's how we know him. Anything that goes against Jesus in any way is not of Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
To me, it is plain that even the devils believe in him and tremble...Legion recognized him right off and said what do we have to do with you Son of God. Have you came to torture us before our time, and also the Bible plainly tells us that the demons believe and tremble.
The devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may kill, steal, and destroy...so I'm not expecting him to walk up to me and come clean and tell me that he is the devil so just do as he says...No, I'm pretty sure that's not how he gets most people. He can transform himself as an angel of the light...but he will deny the teachings of Jesus in some way so that's how we know him. Anything that goes against Jesus in any way is not of Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
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Oh and just to add to this...The devil and demons are tricky and know how to come at each person individually. He could very well come and tell someone that Jesus isn't real and hasn't come in the flesh, yet...If that is what the person wants to hear. Even though he knows better, he don't care to lie.
Yes, in affect he has transformed himself as an angel of the light...using Peter to deny the teachings of Jesus in some way. called the things of men .
Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the son of man the temporal, seen. Today blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not seen is not forgivable.
The Catholics say Peter is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against and use his name as the authority of all the Popes as daysman (infallible fleshly umpire) the venerable (worship-able) set between God and man as the one mediator. They call men Holy Father or Holy See.
Matthew 16;22-23 King James Version (KJV)Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
You could say Peter as the abomination of desecration standing in the holy place of God . (the unseen place of His glory) Again Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy over and over in respect to the Son of man seen .
Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the son of man the temporal, seen. Today blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not seen is not forgivable.
The Catholics say Peter is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against and use his name as the authority of all the Popes as daysman (infallible fleshly umpire) the venerable (worship-able) set between God and man as the one mediator. They call men Holy Father or Holy See.
Matthew 16;22-23 King James Version (KJV)Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
You could say Peter as the abomination of desecration standing in the holy place of God . (the unseen place of His glory) Again Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy over and over in respect to the Son of man seen .
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Applying one isolated verse from a different letter to contradict three chapters of direct instruction is poor hermeneutics. You're misapplying the concept of "eternal" to mean "of the Spirit". That's not what it means.
Prophecy, tongues, miracles and healing are all visible or audible. That doesn't mean they aren't of God. Of the nine gifts listed, only two are "invisible": faith and discernment; and all are given for the common good. That means they are to be shared with the assembly.
I encourage you to re-read 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 with an open mind. The gifts are not given to unbelievers, but to the Church, for the common good of the Church.
Prophecy, tongues, miracles and healing are all visible or audible. That doesn't mean they aren't of God. Of the nine gifts listed, only two are "invisible": faith and discernment; and all are given for the common good. That means they are to be shared with the assembly.
I encourage you to re-read 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 with an open mind. The gifts are not given to unbelievers, but to the Church, for the common good of the Church.
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Tongues are not a problem. People not understanding them is the problem. I am not sure what your other point is. I am not sure what translation you are using, but 'speak intelligible words with your tongue' is a part of a sentence, which is a part of a larger thought. I'll use the KJV to show what I am talking about:
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
Paul's argument here leads up to verses 12 and 13. Notice his conclusion is not that they should not speak in tongues, but that the speaking in tongues needs to be interpreted. Look at verses 27-28 also.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
We need to imagine the type of church meetings Paul is assuming the church has here, one in which regular members of the assembly sing and speak to edify one another. This is in line with Hebrews 10:24-25, which tells us not to forsake assembling, and also what to do when we assemble-- to 'exhort one another', in the context of provoking one another to love and to good works. Paul does not teach the church to have a 'spectator church' meeting where everyone sits and listens to one man give a long sermon, as we see in Protestant tradition. It is helpful to realize Paul's instructions are for a different type of church meeting from what many of us our used to, the type of meeting that has evolved through tradition.
After writing all that about speaking in tongues, Paul gives commands regarding the interpretation of tongues in church. Speaking in tongues and interpreting in the proper order is allowed in church. Prophesying is allowed and encourage, again, in accordance with the 'commandments of the Lord' for our church meetings in this passage. Later in the passage, Paul writes to covet to prophesy and to forbid not to speak with tongues.
Two people have to interpret? In verse 27, Paul says 'and let one interpret.' I would take that to refer to the one ('tis') who speaks in tongues, not a restriction on someone else interpreting if another person receives a message in tongues.
Where do you get that. My Bible tongues whether there be tongues, they shall cease, not that they ceased in the first century. As Paul started off this epistle in which he would write about tongues, prophecy, and other gifts, he wrote, 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Why would he have written that if he envisioned a time before Jesus came back when the very gifts he was Jeus about to write about would cease? We should take Paul's hint here about the time-frame he has in mind.
Paul, when he wrote I Corinthians, was like a child in comparison to his speech, thoughts, and understanding, compared to what he these things will be like when the perfect comes. We are still learning from Paul today. We have not so far surpassed him that his writings seem like the works of small children.
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
Paul's argument here leads up to verses 12 and 13. Notice his conclusion is not that they should not speak in tongues, but that the speaking in tongues needs to be interpreted. Look at verses 27-28 also.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
We need to imagine the type of church meetings Paul is assuming the church has here, one in which regular members of the assembly sing and speak to edify one another. This is in line with Hebrews 10:24-25, which tells us not to forsake assembling, and also what to do when we assemble-- to 'exhort one another', in the context of provoking one another to love and to good works. Paul does not teach the church to have a 'spectator church' meeting where everyone sits and listens to one man give a long sermon, as we see in Protestant tradition. It is helpful to realize Paul's instructions are for a different type of church meeting from what many of us our used to, the type of meeting that has evolved through tradition.
After writing all that about speaking in tongues, Paul gives commands regarding the interpretation of tongues in church. Speaking in tongues and interpreting in the proper order is allowed in church. Prophesying is allowed and encourage, again, in accordance with the 'commandments of the Lord' for our church meetings in this passage. Later in the passage, Paul writes to covet to prophesy and to forbid not to speak with tongues.
Two people have to interpret? In verse 27, Paul says 'and let one interpret.' I would take that to refer to the one ('tis') who speaks in tongues, not a restriction on someone else interpreting if another person receives a message in tongues.
Where do you get that. My Bible tongues whether there be tongues, they shall cease, not that they ceased in the first century. As Paul started off this epistle in which he would write about tongues, prophecy, and other gifts, he wrote, 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Why would he have written that if he envisioned a time before Jesus came back when the very gifts he was Jeus about to write about would cease? We should take Paul's hint here about the time-frame he has in mind.
Paul, when he wrote I Corinthians, was like a child in comparison to his speech, thoughts, and understanding, compared to what he these things will be like when the perfect comes. We are still learning from Paul today. We have not so far surpassed him that his writings seem like the works of small children.
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You are quoting verses that don't support your assertions. I agree with everything that you quoted but non supports today's phenomena of tongues. Whichever bible version you choose, it speaks of the same thing:
1 Cor 14: 9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
I have asked a question and i will ask again, must tongues be words that are not understandable or can they be understood?
IOW, Do we have tongues today that can be understood by listeners as Paul suggests in verse 9?
You are jumping to v 13 but can not address v 9. I have already told you where interpretation of tongues must be applied, but that doesn't erase the fact that Paul says we speak understandable words with our tongue.
1 Cor 14: 9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
I have asked a question and i will ask again, must tongues be words that are not understandable or can they be understood?
IOW, Do we have tongues today that can be understood by listeners as Paul suggests in verse 9?
You are jumping to v 13 but can not address v 9. I have already told you where interpretation of tongues must be applied, but that doesn't erase the fact that Paul says we speak understandable words with our tongue.
Paul says when someone speaks in tongues 'no man understandeth him.' The idea of the congregation understanding just does not show up in this passage. Verse 9, there, is part of Paul's argument for why tongues need to be interpreted. Other people do not understand. He also explains that other people are not edified, and teaches that in church 'let all things be done unto' edifying.
Again, look at the logical connectors, like 'Wherefore' in verse 13. Paul's arguments in this passage lead up to the conclusion that tongues should be interpreted to edify others.
Paul doe snot say that. He says. "except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?" like you quoted above. Paul is dealing with a legitimate gift of the Spirit here, and he says when someone speaks in tongues 'no one understands him'.
Can God arrange a situation where others present understand whatever tongue is being spoken or give an individual or individuals the ability to speak in tongues of those present? Of course. We see others present understanding in Acts 2. That is not the situation that Paul deals with in I Corinthians 14, though. And we should not expect others present understanding apart from the gift of interpretation in church as the norm either.
But it can happen. There are many accounts of this happening at the Azusa Street revival. Missions have witnessed this as well. I read an article from a missionary who wrote of witnessing Chinese people speaking in tongues in English. I mentioned this to his daughter when she sang at a church I attended, and she'd witnessed it to. She told me about a Chinese grandma in a village who spoke in tongues in English. I asked what she said. She said she was saying a psalm. I asked which one. She said she did not know if it was one from the Bible, but it sounded like a psalm. I also correspond with a German preacher who knows of two German speakers who do not know English but who speak in tongues in English. One of them speaks in King James English. A missionary friend of mine had an urge to speak in tongues at a crusade that ministered to Native Americans at a reservation. After the meeting, some of the people there asked how he could speak their language. He'd rebuked some youths trying to cause mischief in the meeting.
Again, look at the logical connectors, like 'Wherefore' in verse 13. Paul's arguments in this passage lead up to the conclusion that tongues should be interpreted to edify others.
Paul doe snot say that. He says. "except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?" like you quoted above. Paul is dealing with a legitimate gift of the Spirit here, and he says when someone speaks in tongues 'no one understands him'.
Can God arrange a situation where others present understand whatever tongue is being spoken or give an individual or individuals the ability to speak in tongues of those present? Of course. We see others present understanding in Acts 2. That is not the situation that Paul deals with in I Corinthians 14, though. And we should not expect others present understanding apart from the gift of interpretation in church as the norm either.
But it can happen. There are many accounts of this happening at the Azusa Street revival. Missions have witnessed this as well. I read an article from a missionary who wrote of witnessing Chinese people speaking in tongues in English. I mentioned this to his daughter when she sang at a church I attended, and she'd witnessed it to. She told me about a Chinese grandma in a village who spoke in tongues in English. I asked what she said. She said she was saying a psalm. I asked which one. She said she did not know if it was one from the Bible, but it sounded like a psalm. I also correspond with a German preacher who knows of two German speakers who do not know English but who speak in tongues in English. One of them speaks in King James English. A missionary friend of mine had an urge to speak in tongues at a crusade that ministered to Native Americans at a reservation. After the meeting, some of the people there asked how he could speak their language. He'd rebuked some youths trying to cause mischief in the meeting.
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Just in case you have an issue with your memory :
you responded to my post in Post 2,259
notuptome said:
Mute point. Acts 2 tongues ended.
Most fail to attribute true tongues to multi lingual persons.
Just ill advised behavior desperately seeking justification.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
my response: 2,260
Excuse me please do not comment on my response with an insult. Your opinion provided no context to what they other gentlemen and I were speaking about. Please troll another. Your tactics are old. I will not for one stand for it any longer. Thank you
you were told then . let it go. final time.
you responded to my post in Post 2,259
notuptome said:
Mute point. Acts 2 tongues ended.
Most fail to attribute true tongues to multi lingual persons.
Just ill advised behavior desperately seeking justification.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
my response: 2,260
Excuse me please do not comment on my response with an insult. Your opinion provided no context to what they other gentlemen and I were speaking about. Please troll another. Your tactics are old. I will not for one stand for it any longer. Thank you
you were told then . let it go. final time.
1. Again, you are running away from v9 where Paul says tongues can be understandable by the listeners meaning that tongue is an actual human language because if you speak words that are understandable, you are definitely speaking a human language.
Human language can also be interpreted if the listeners can not relate to the tongue/human language being spoken (v13) but this doesn't in anyway erase what Paul talks of in v9 about speaking understandable words with our tongue. It completely knocks out the current phenomena of tongues that must always be words with no structure that are not understandable by listeners.
2. Apostles spoke in tongues and their listeners understood them without any interpretation. I'm yet to see apostles talk in tongues that was interpreted to their listeners.
3. In your misunderstanding, you are trying to use v2 to prop up your ideas of tongues. I already told you that the whole chapter is about Paul correcting a wrong practice in this church and v2 is where the root of the problem is. Speaking things that are considered mysteries to others is not Love. Paul calls it self edification which is a wrong thing and the root of the problem he was addressing in that chapter.
1 Cor 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue a does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
Verse 4 is the one that points to the problem because there is never such thing as self edification because Paul himself in his earlier address said clearly that gifts are to profit all:
1 Cor 12:
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
So, you taking Paul's problem statement and applying it in your life, the very thing that Paul was trying to address at Corinth.
Paul is very clear in his address, gifts are to build the church and building the church means people must understand, and if people understand tongues then it means it is an actual language.
1 Cor 14:6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
Human language can also be interpreted if the listeners can not relate to the tongue/human language being spoken (v13) but this doesn't in anyway erase what Paul talks of in v9 about speaking understandable words with our tongue. It completely knocks out the current phenomena of tongues that must always be words with no structure that are not understandable by listeners.
2. Apostles spoke in tongues and their listeners understood them without any interpretation. I'm yet to see apostles talk in tongues that was interpreted to their listeners.
3. In your misunderstanding, you are trying to use v2 to prop up your ideas of tongues. I already told you that the whole chapter is about Paul correcting a wrong practice in this church and v2 is where the root of the problem is. Speaking things that are considered mysteries to others is not Love. Paul calls it self edification which is a wrong thing and the root of the problem he was addressing in that chapter.
1 Cor 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue a does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
Verse 4 is the one that points to the problem because there is never such thing as self edification because Paul himself in his earlier address said clearly that gifts are to profit all:
1 Cor 12:
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
So, you taking Paul's problem statement and applying it in your life, the very thing that Paul was trying to address at Corinth.
Paul is very clear in his address, gifts are to build the church and building the church means people must understand, and if people understand tongues then it means it is an actual language.
1 Cor 14:6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
I think you are eisegeting a modern debate into Paul's words here that just are not there. Paul is not arguing against an idea that tongues are non-human languages. Why would that topic be in the passage. Paul writes of being a barbarian to others. They say the etymology of barbarian is that non-Greeks perceived foreigners as saying 'bar bar bar.' I heard a historical linguistics scholar at a university make that assertion once. If you speak a language others do not understand, it means nothing to them.
I believe 'tongues' means languages-- as Pentecostals have also historically believed-- anyway, so your paragraph above feels a bit like a straw man argument.
But clearly the issue here is that the congregation does not understand the language spoken. The issue is not 'not real languages'. Paul's point is that the congregation needs to understand and to be edified. Understanding and edificaiton is what they get out of the interpretation of the tongue.
If the congregation could understand the tongue, why do you think Paul wants the tongue to be interpreted?
Whether Paul's tongues, which he spoke 'more than ye all' were interpreted, is not the issue. I agree with your point as far as Acts 2 is concerned, but I Corinthians 14 is also valid and legitimate scripture, and your comment does not invalidate the chapter.
I would agree with that, but I suspect you are reading some problems into the chapter that are not there. Paul is not against speaking in tongues in this chapter. In the context of the church, he instructs the Corinthians that it be used in conjunction with interpretation of tongues so that the congregation may be edified. Speaking in tongues without interpretation only edifies the speaker. In church meetings, everything is to be done unto edification, so speaking in tongues needs to be interpreted.
If speaking in tongues were evil, then Paul would not have written "I speak in tongues more than ye all' or 'forbid not to speak with tongues.'
You are implicitly accusing Paul of not being loving, then. Since he wrote about the mystery of the Christ, the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret before the world began. He wrote about the mystery that 'we shall not all sleep.' This was not unloving.
Your idea that self-edification is evil contradicts what Paul writes in the chapter. If self-edification were a wrong thing it would be wrong for you to read the Bible by yourself or encourage yourself in the Lord as David did. Jude said to edify yourself in the most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. Is praying off alone by yourself forbidden because it builds you up?
The point is not the edifying oneself is evil, but that in the church meeting, we should edify the church, not each individual his own self only. If 'edify' has a negative connotation here, as in puff oneself up, then edifying the congregation would be bad-- causing the congregation to be prideful. Edification is a positive term in this chapter.
You cut it off before verse 13:
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
I believe 'tongues' means languages-- as Pentecostals have also historically believed-- anyway, so your paragraph above feels a bit like a straw man argument.
But clearly the issue here is that the congregation does not understand the language spoken. The issue is not 'not real languages'. Paul's point is that the congregation needs to understand and to be edified. Understanding and edificaiton is what they get out of the interpretation of the tongue.
If the congregation could understand the tongue, why do you think Paul wants the tongue to be interpreted?
Whether Paul's tongues, which he spoke 'more than ye all' were interpreted, is not the issue. I agree with your point as far as Acts 2 is concerned, but I Corinthians 14 is also valid and legitimate scripture, and your comment does not invalidate the chapter.
I would agree with that, but I suspect you are reading some problems into the chapter that are not there. Paul is not against speaking in tongues in this chapter. In the context of the church, he instructs the Corinthians that it be used in conjunction with interpretation of tongues so that the congregation may be edified. Speaking in tongues without interpretation only edifies the speaker. In church meetings, everything is to be done unto edification, so speaking in tongues needs to be interpreted.
If speaking in tongues were evil, then Paul would not have written "I speak in tongues more than ye all' or 'forbid not to speak with tongues.'
You are implicitly accusing Paul of not being loving, then. Since he wrote about the mystery of the Christ, the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret before the world began. He wrote about the mystery that 'we shall not all sleep.' This was not unloving.
Your idea that self-edification is evil contradicts what Paul writes in the chapter. If self-edification were a wrong thing it would be wrong for you to read the Bible by yourself or encourage yourself in the Lord as David did. Jude said to edify yourself in the most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. Is praying off alone by yourself forbidden because it builds you up?
The point is not the edifying oneself is evil, but that in the church meeting, we should edify the church, not each individual his own self only. If 'edify' has a negative connotation here, as in puff oneself up, then edifying the congregation would be bad-- causing the congregation to be prideful. Edification is a positive term in this chapter.
You cut it off before verse 13:
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
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