Speaking in tongues

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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I believe there is a name for this logical error-- assuming there are only two or three (or whatever) possibilities when there are numerous possiblities.

In this case, your choices are kind of like these choices:
"Mrs. Smith has a brand new baby. Where did the Bible come from?
A. It grew in the cabbage patch in the garden and she picked it and brought it home.
B. A stork flew by her house and dropped a new baby on her doorstep."


Neither solution is a good one, and neither are one of yours. Paul says nothing about being baptized in the name of saints. Who does that? I've never heard of such an idea. He never says anything about resurrected saints indwelling people. I think you are attributing bizaar non-Hebraic religious notions to Paul in this passage.

I'd have to take a stab at what this is about, but I'd image someone was baptized as a proxy for someone else who had died. For example, if there was a new catechumen-- and that may be an anachronistic use of the term-- maybe a new 'seeker' who had confessed his faith but died before his baptism, maybe someone was baptized on his behalf. That's a total guess, and it presents some theological problems. But this is a problem passage.

It's conceivable there were people who just got baptized again when someone died to remember he would rise again. Or maybe there was some kind of Jewish purification ritual, like a mikveh after touching a dead body, that they would do, but somehow connected it to the resurrection.

Again, these are just guesses, but at least they are not as strange a leap as your ideas are. You read ideas into passages that offer no support at all for the ideas. For example, Paul talking about death working in his body while he was alive is not evidence that his spirit would be dispersed among saints when he died. Here, you seem to be doing the same with the baptism for the dead verse.
While you are speaking from guesswork as rightly admitted, i know what i'm saying and can confidently say, you are wrong.
Not only are you wrong but also confused for dismissing what you believe, an end of age resurrection which was part of the options given.

There can't be many possibilities when it comes to truth, just one truth out of many lies.

You've never heard anyone baptize people for the dead saints? Catholics have been doing this since inception yet they are still wrong because they baptize babies who still don't know right from wrong.
Do not also bring the Mormon practice of baptizing on behalf of the dead, Paul was not talking of 'on behalf' but 'for' the dead.

You have to understand that Paul quotes this practice as part of his resurrection argument thereby endorsing it because the underlying belief was true. By asking the question, Paul is trying to help us think on the kind of resurrection he taught. So, there's only one truth when it comes to resurrection and not so many possibilities and that truth is what those that baptized for the did believed also.
I'm also trying to think out loudly here when it comes to baptizing for the dead;
why would anyone baptize for the dead:
Is it because they believe resurrection is future or because they believe that resurrection is current and what did the Apostles teach about resurrection? And what did the prophets and the law say about it?

To me, it is clear, the Apostles taught that their own deaths would benefit their listeners and the Law prophesied that the OT saints would be 'gathered to their people'. And that's that.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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It seems like you are trying to bypass the foundation?

Bottom line is will we obey the law (1 Corinthians 14:21-22) in respect to a sign (Isaiah 28:10-15).

It is what sign gifts now days are all about trying to confirm something? But what?

Once we establish what the sign represents then looking at it more detail will have the proper foundation.

Who was the sign for or was it against? And why did God mock the Jews with Stammering lips?

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they "not hear" me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that believe", but "to them that believe not": but prophesying serveth "not for them that believe not", but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

To me its like any doctrine a person must go to the foundation as a law. Basing it on the oral traditions of those who do seek after sign and wonders a person will come to another conclusion having a another witness as that seen needed to widen the authority of the word of God.

We begin in Isaiah to set the subject line. Why destroy the foundation as if it was never there?

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:10-15
It seems obvious that you misunderstand the application of Isaiah's prophecy since you have a problem with the teachings of Paul from earlier in the chapter which you were responding to in the post above.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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What nonsense is this?
Church authorities!! Who are they? The Inquisition?
Praying in unknown tongues (also described in scriptures as praying in the Spirit) is done in R. Catholic, Lutheran and
Baptist churches that I know about down under here in Australia.
Many Spirit-filled Christians do not pay heed to the word of God which commands them to come out of worldly religion and
to separate ourselves from others: thus many Spirit-filled Christians who do pray in tongues remain in non-Pentecostal churches
to their own detriment.

I have often been invited by local Catholic and Protestant church people to join in with them in some back room for
group prayer in the Spirit as they belong to churches that deny the full gospel preached by Jesus and the Apostles.
As for me, Jesus took me out of the Roman Catholic faith and personally brought me into a disciplined Bible obedient
Pentecostal church that conducts worship services in full accord with the instructions laid out in 1Corinthians 14.
Upon reading your comment I recalled something that occurred years ago that was very interesting. Our church purchased pews and upon arriving to get them a discussion ensued. The sellers shared that they were "Bapticostals." Well that certainly peaked interest. This was their testimony:
The group of men decided to come together and pray to strengthen their walk with Jesus. As they sincerely cried out in prayer, to their amazement, the entire group was filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak in tongues. Afterward, they were so filled with joy they could barely contain their excitement as they waited to share the good news with the members of their church.

Sunday came and the men proudly stood before he congregation and relayed their experience. "We were all infilled and spoke in tongues just like the others on the Day of Pentecost. We could hardly believe it ourselves! There is no doubt that what happened to us was from God," they said with smiles beaming from ear to ear.

They went on to say you could have heard a pin drop, when the pastor ushered them to the door and told them they were no longer welcome to fellowship with his church.

The men were surprised by the response of their congregation. However they decided not to be discouraged and to go forward and share the true plan of salvation. They began a church and still refer to themselves as "Bapticostals."

I enjoy this testimony because it gives God all the glory! Our Lord and Savior will honor those who sincerely seek Him.
 
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A PROPHETIC WORD unto YOU... Speaking in TONGUES, means that you are speaking in a KNOWN LANGUAGE, not an UNKNOWN LANGUAGE, where you do not even know what you are saying, for if you do not know, My FATHER DOES NOT KNOW EITHER, for He does not LISTEN to this GIBBERISH, in which these Churches of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES have TAUGHT YOU TO BELIEVE that you are speaking to My FATHER, but I TELL YOU, YOU ARE NOT, have you not read, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Acts 2:1-8 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation, [meaning NATIONALITIES called MANKIND] under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? AND HOW HEAR WE “EVERY MAN", IN OUR OWN TONGUE, [meaning their language], WHEREIN WE WERE BORN?

I will give them the ability to hear what I AM SAYING unto them, even in their OWN LANGUAGE.. For this GIBBERISH, that they have TAUGHT you to do, either by practice or copying off of others, has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME, or My FATHER.. For they have ONLY MADE YOU TO THINK that you were speaking to the FATHER, but you are not. For they are teaching you to speak to their GOD, who has NOTHING TO DO with your “CREATOR", in whom we DO NOT call GOD. For our CREATOR is NOT A GOD, BIG or little ‘g’. He is our CREATOR in whom we call ABBA, and not GOD, but ABBA, which means FATHER, have you not read, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, who are YOU, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that DID NOT RECEIVE ME, when I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH. But who I AM NOT is JESUS/Yeshua in whom they had “REPLACED” MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER’S Holy Scribes/Scriptures when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. I AM NOT HIM, and My FATHER IS NOT A GOD. He is your CREATOR in whom we call ABBA, have you not READ, or have they not TAUGHT you this? Saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, the FATHER hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “ABBA", Father. Mark 14:36 And he said, “ABBA", Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. Roman 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, “ABBA", Father.


For there is ONLY ONE “GOD”, in this “WORLD”, and his name is SATAN. For it is SATAN who have BLINDED THE MINDS, of My FATHER’S CHILDREN, have you not READ, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures..
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of the FATHER, should shine unto them. Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, un-fatherly men, turning the grace of our FATHER into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord thy FATHER, and our Lord YAHOSHUA Christ.

I AM YAHOSHUA, but who I AM NOT is your JESUS/Yeshua, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER’S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. which was also when your “FREE WILL TEST”, had begun, have you not read, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. YOSHUA/Joshua 24:13-15 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat. Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

In a TEST, that I have come as a GOOD, and LOVING TEACHER that I AM. To tell you that you are FAILING YOUR TEST. For you have been DECEIVED INTO WORSHIPING A “GOD”, through a son, who is NOT ME, saith YAHOSHUA., who is the CHRIST, meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH. I AM YAHOSHUA, who NAME is the ONLY NAME that is carrying the THREE NAMES of the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD in HEAVEN as well as in EARTH, for even the DEMONS, that are WITHIN THIS EARTH’S CRUST, knows My NAME, and they TREMBLE. I AM, YAHOSHUA, whose NAME is carrying the NAMES of My “FATHER” who is “YAH” as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH, the “WORD”, who I AM, “YOSHUA”, who is ALSO the “SON”, as well as the “HOLY SPIRIT”, which is SIGNIFIED, by the “AH” that is also in MY FATHER’S NAME, who is “YAH” as in YAHOVEH/YAHUVEH. Which is also carrying the “SACRED LETTERS” of My FATHER’S “SACRED NAME” which is “YHVH”, not YHWH. The YHVH, which is also shown to you in My FATHER’S NAME....
Y a H o V e H / Y a H u V e H.

Remembering I told you that My FATHER has MANY NAMES, and so does LUCIFER. This is WHY, it is ONLY THROUGH MY NAME, can you be SAVED. For MY FATHER, nor My MOTHER CAN HELP YOU WITH THIS. For I HAVE BEEN GIVEN, the KEYS to the KINGDOM. And I AM, that DOOR that you must come through, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not read, or have they not taught you this? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. John 10:1-5 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. John 10:25-30 YAHOSHUA answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

Continue to Part 2...
 
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I AM NOT TAKING YOU OUT OF THIS WORLD, through any RAPTURE, for I have NEVER PROMISED you that I WOULD DO THAT. These are the LIES, and TRADITIONS taught to you, but JESUS/Yeshua, who is NOT ME. He is the one whom they had “REPLACED” MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER’S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. I warned you about this. When I told John the PUNISHMENT that I would bring unto those who had done this to YOU, have you not read, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto YOU, who are of the ANCESTORS of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called “MANKIND”, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that DID NOT RECEIVE ME, when I CAME unto the “LOST SHEEP”, of the “HOUSE of ISRAEL”, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Revelation 22:16-19 I YAHOSHUA have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, the FATHER shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, the FATHER shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Do you not know and understand that My FATHER was AGAINST THOSE WHO TAUGHT his children to “FLY” to “SAVE” their SOULS. He is AGAINST THIS FOOLISHNESS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Ezekiel 13:20-23 Wherefore thus saith the Lord thy FATHER; Behold, I am against your pillows, [meaning your ‘soft’ teachings] wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

For I have PRAYED to the FATHER, NOT TO TAKE YOU OUT of the “WORLD”, but rather to PROTECT YOU, from the Evil that is coming unto you soon, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not read, or have they not taught you this? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. John 17:15-20 I PRAY “NOT” THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.

Your speaking in this GIBBERISH, is NOTHING TO DO WITH ME, or My FATHER who sent Me, saith YAHOSHUA. For this is the working of SATAN. For NOTHING at PENTECOST was UNKNOWN, for EVERYONE, HEARD what was being said EVEN IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, as well as their own DIALICT, saith YAHOSHUA. For it is Satan through his son who is Cain who have been standing behind the name of JESUS/Yeshua, in whom you have been “GREEDILY” RUNNING BEHIND for “REWARD”, unawares, have done this to you, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not read? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

This is the “SPOTS" in YOUR FEAST OF CHARITY. For you do not KNOW ME, or My FATHER who sent ME, unto the “LOST SHEEP”, of the “HOUSE OF ISRAEL”, for they are ONLY MAKING YOU TO “THINK” THAT YOU DO. Until you find YOURSELVES AWAKING in a PLACE that you have NO IDEA, WHEN, WHERE, or HOW you got their saith YAHOSHUA. Why would you THINK that I would tell you to “GET AWAY” from Me, I have NEVER KNEW YOU. It is because you have RECEIVED ANOTHER Christ who is NOT ME, and you have done this through CHRISTIANITY. Which the word CHRISTIAN, simply means a “CHRIST” FOLLOWER, but the “QUESTION” IS.. What CHRIST are you FOLLOWING? For I AM NOT JESUS/Yeshua in whom they had “REPLACED” MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER’S Holy Scribes/Scriptures. And I warned you about this. When I gave JOHN the PUNISHMENT that I would bring unto those who had done this to you, have you not read? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Revelation 22:16-19 I YAHOSHUA have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, the FATHER shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, the FATHER shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now I have kept My PROMISE unto YOU. When I said that I would make the things that were kept from you made known unto you, have you not read, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord 'thy Father’ will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints. Luke 8:17 FOR “NOTHING" IS SECRET, THAT SHALL NOT BE MADE “MANIFEST"; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the ‘MYSTERY’, which from the ‘BEGINNING’ of the world hath been hid in ‘the Father’, who “CREATED’ all things by Yahoshua Christ. Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; “I WILL UTTER THINGS WHICH HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRETS FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Continue to Part 3...
 
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And I have done this through not only My Prophetess, but also thy Elect Sister, for she is many ORDERS, unto Me. For she is also MY BRIDE, who KNOWS HER HUSBANDS NAME, DO YOU? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of teh WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that did not RECEIVE ME, when I came unto them. I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 2 John 1:1-2 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth. For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever. 2 John 1:9-13 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not “the Father”. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Father’s speed: For he that biddeth him “GOD” speed is partaker of his evil deeds. Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, AND SPEAK FACE TO FACE, that our joy may be full. “THE CHILDREN OF THY ELECT SISTER GREET THEE. Amen.

To those who I AM AWAKENING. Do not fall BACK TO SLEEP. For the Anti Christ who is coming in My POSITION as “CHRIST”, but NOT IN MY NAME. For he who is Cain who is Satan son, have already come to you IN HIS OWN NAME. Which I had warned you that he would do. And his name is JESUS/Yeshua in whom they had “REPLACED” MY SAVING NAME WITH, THROUGHOUT My FATHER’S Holy Scribes/Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. Which was also when the INTRODUCED, their GOD in whom they had DECEIVED YOU INTO WORSHIPING, INSTEAD of your CREATOR, in whom we call ABBA, and not GOD, but ABBA. IT is JESUS./Yeshua who is coming unto you soon, for he is coming unto you IN HIS OWN NAME, who is JESUS/YESHUA as their MAHDI, who has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ME, saith YAHOSHUA, for he is the PRINCE of this WORLD, who is Cain who is SATAN SON, who is STANDING BEHIND THESE NAMES. He is the PRINCE of this WORLD, who you have RECEIVED INSTEAD OF ME. Which the very word, “ANTI”, means “INSTEAD OF”, for you have WORSHIPING A “GOD”, through a son, INSTEAD OF MY FATHER through ME, saith YAHOSHUA. For you do not KNOW ME, for they are only MAKING YOU THINK that you do, until you AWAKEN in a PLACE you have no idea how you go there, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Jeremiah 4:20-22 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. Matthew 7:21-27 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Listen to these word for they are SPIRIT and they are TRUTH, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ unto YOU, meaning unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that DID NOT RECEIVE ME.. When I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH. For I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE YOU OUT OF YOUR TESTING GROUND, for many will not see death. And I have never taught you that I was going to take you out of the WORLD. I said that I AM coming unto YOU, in My GLORY, which means My SPIRIT body. It is for this REASON, that you ALL, not some, but “ALL” will be changed, back into your CELESTIAL beings, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not read, or have they not taught you this? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of the FATHER; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So you be STRONG, and of good COURAGE, through and in MY NAME, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy Father, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Stay out of these TEMPLES/CHURCHES for I AM NOT IN THEM. And Paul was also trying to warn you about this, have you not read, saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Acts 17:22-24 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. The FATHER that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands.

SO WHY ARE YOU IN THEM, I ASK? For this word have been to some their VISITATION, and to other, A FACE TO FACE experience through thy Elect Sister in WHOM I HAVE SAID TO GREET THEE, for she is many ORDERS unto Me, for she is also My BRIDE, who KNOWS HER HUSBANDS NAME, DO YOU? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto you, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Luke 19:40-44 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
2 John 1:12-13 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full. The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.



Shalom
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,840
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Part 3...
And I have done this through not only My Prophetess, but also thy Elect Sister, for she is many ORDERS, unto Me. For she is also MY BRIDE, who KNOWS HER HUSBANDS NAME, DO YOU? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of teh WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that did not RECEIVE ME, when I came unto them. I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 2 John 1:1-2 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth. For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever. 2 John 1:9-13 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in ....
Hello COO777...
May I offer a couple of pointers that will facilitate your interaction here? First, most people won't read long threads. It's a discussion forum, not a sermon forum. Imagine reading your three posts aloud in a small group... very few would be listening by midway through the second part. You'll get more readers by being brief. Second, ALL CAPS is the internet equivalent of shouting, so use it sparingly. Third, although you have some line breaks, you could use more. Anything beyond about six lines looks like a wall of text and can be difficult to read, especially for those with diminished vision.

There is a blog section of this site if you'd like to post long compositions there.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,840
9,811
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Flawed according to whose law?
Flawed according to the laws of logic.

That is how the law of God works. The Bible is the perfect law of God as it is written with it representing the faith of God not seen affirms that it is inerrant. Because it is a perfect law and not a philosophical theory of men
This isn't philosophy; it's logic. They are not the same thing. Focus on the explanation, not the example.

Whatever the Bible says is true. Therefore according to the law of God. The Bible is inerrant.
You're missing the point COMPLETELY. Did you read the explanation or did you fixate on the example (which, by the way, is a perfectly valid example even if you don't agree with it).

Three times the father of lies attempted to reason after the philosophies of this world. Three times using the same reasoning As it is written again with the word it representing the faith of God that worked to make the devil flee.

The law of circular reasoning.

Satan could not find a opening in the sealed circle. What go up must go down, spinning wheels spinning round .And where it stops only he knows
You are demonstrating an unwillingness to learn. You do not understand circular reasoning, and you don't seem to give a flip that you don't understand. Your stubbornness is baffling, and your made-up definitions are simply ridiculous.

Since you don't like the reference I provided, go find your own. I'll keep calling you out on your flawed reasoning.
 
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Hello COO777...
May I offer a couple of pointers that will facilitate your interaction here? First, most people won't read long threads. It's a discussion forum, not a sermon forum. Imagine reading your three posts aloud in a small group... very few would be listening by midway through the second part. You'll get more readers by being brief. Second, ALL CAPS is the internet equivalent of shouting, so use it sparingly. Third, although you have some line breaks, you could use more. Anything beyond about six lines looks like a wall of text and can be difficult to read, especially for those with diminished vision.

There is a blog section of this site if you'd like to post long compositions there.

There is no short way to TEACH the FATHER'S WORDS.. For we have been taught such lies that a few sentences will not help AWAKEN ANYONE. For they have to be RETAUGHT, in what the FATHER'S WORDS is TEACHING THEM, not what MAN'S TRADITIONS have taught that have made My FATHER'S WORDS of NONE EFFECT, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Mark 7:6-9He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of the FATHER, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark7:13-16 Making the word of the FATHER OF NONE EFFECT THROUGH YOUR TRADITION, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

I AM A PROPHETIC TEACHER, that HEARS FROM THE FATHER through His Son to speak, and I must speak what He is saying, or I will be QUINCHING the HOLY SPIRIT.

Remember the FATHER Said that He was going to make the things that were KEPT SECRET TO YOU, made KNOWN UNTO YOU. Do you truly want me to go somewhere else, because of the LENGTH of your SAVIOR MESSAGE, have you not read? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures..
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord 'thy Father’ will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints. Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the ‘MYSTERY’, which from the ‘BEGINNING’ of the world hath been hid in ‘the Father’, who “CREATED’ all things by Yahoshua Christ.

Shalom
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Are you blind? are you deaf? i hope not.

The bible has made it clear that these people died and were buried and were gathered to their people and were mourned, so non could be an idiom for the other.
You were the one who threw out the mourning theory first. This is not a hill I would die on, regarding the interpretation of this phrase that it is quite clearly an idiom. In one of the verses I mentioned a patriarch was gathered to his 'fathers.' I would take the idiom to refer, most likely, to going the same place where his fathers went when they died in the past. You could take that to going the way of his ancestors, who were buried in the earth. It might refer to the disembodied dead going somewhere in the afterlife. I am not sure if the ancient Hebrews knew much about that or had beliefs about that to show up in an idiom like this without further explanation.

But there is absolutely no reason to think it means the spirit of Moses got distributed among the living people there. You have a strange theory, and you keep reading it into verses that offer it no support whatsoever.

Paul writing about bearing about in his body the death of Christ is about how he lived his life. Christ had said if any man come after him, let him take up his cross daily and follow Him. When was in Philippi, he was beaten and after it was all over with, told them he was a Roman citizen. The scandal might have bought other believers there he'd won to Christ a bit of a reprieve from the government who did not want to dig up the scandal with Paul. Paul suffered so that others could hear the Gospel. He poured out his life like a drink offering. None of these verses say that when he died, his spirit got divided up, distributed, absorbed, etc. by the church. That's just not in any of the verses you have shown. You keep showing verses that in no way support your claim and reading the idea into them. I even showed you a passage where he wrote that it would be good for him to go but beneficial for the Philippians if he stayed alive.
 
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Flawed according to the laws of logic.


This isn't philosophy; it's logic. They are not the same thing. Focus on the explanation, not the example.


You're missing the point COMPLETELY. Did you read the explanation or did you fixate on the example (which, by the way, is a perfectly valid example even if you don't agree with it).


You are demonstrating an unwillingness to learn. You do not understand circular reasoning, and you don't seem to give a flip that you don't understand. Your stubbornness is baffling, and your made-up definitions are simply ridiculous.

Since you don't like the reference I provided, go find your own. I'll keep calling you out on your flawed reasoning.
A Prophetic word unto YOU. If you say the WORD is the PERFECT LAW, why are you calling your CREATOR by a Title of GOD. When your CREATOR is called ABBA, and not GOD, but ABBA, which means FATHER, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures..
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, the FATHER hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “ABBA", Father. Mark 14:36 And he said, “ABBA", Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. Roman 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, “ABBA", Father.

Do you not UNDERSTAND that there is ONLY ONE "GOD" in this WORLD, and his name is SATAN. It is SATAN who have been STANDING BEHIND THE Title of GOD, as his son CAIN, have been STANDING BEHIND the NAME of JESUS/YESHUA, in whom they had REPLACED MY SAVING NAME WITH, throughout My FATHER'S Holy Scribes/ Scriptures, when I LEFT YOUR WORLD AGE. Just as they had done unto YOU. When the ADDED the Title of GOD, then DECEIVE THIS WORLD into WORSHIPING A GOD, INSTEAD OF your CREATOR in whom WE CALL ABBA, which means FATHER. It is Cain who is STANDING BEHIND the NAME of JESUS/YESHUA, in whom you have been GREEDILY RUNNING BEHIND FOR REWARD UNAWARES, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH. For this is YOUR "SPOTS" that are in YOUR FEAST OF CHARITY, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

And this is what He has sent me into this world to tell you.. I have prepared her from a child,. saith YAHOSHUA, for no man have taught her, but I through My SPIRIT, have you not read? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. 2 Timothy 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ YAHOSHUA.
All scripture is given by inspiration of the FATHER, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of the FATHER may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Know this. I WILL NEVER SPEAK TO ANYONE OUTSIDE OF WHAT IS ALREADY WRITTEN, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH.

Shalom
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
6,495
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While you are speaking from guesswork as rightly admitted, i know what i'm saying and can confidently say, you are wrong.
Obviously, you do not know what you are talking about. You may be certain of whatever it is you think, but you keep posting verses that do not support the theories you propose, and feeling certain about it.


Not only are you wrong but also confused for dismissing what you believe, an end of age resurrection which was part of the options given.[/quote]

No, I rejected the bizaar idea of the Corinthians being baptized in the name of the saints--which was part of the end-time resurrection scenario you proposed. That is just weird, has nothing to do with the teaching of the New Testament. Matthew writes about baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Acts writes about baptism in the name of Jesus.

{quote]
There can't be many possibilities when it comes to truth, just one truth out of many lies.[/quote]

I would agree with you on that. But we should also both be realistic and realize that are some details that aren't revealed in the Bible and some areas where scholars might debate what things mean, some nitty gritty details. Paul addressed two women who were disputing. We do not know what they were arguing about because the passage does not tell us. We do not know the details fo the Corinthian practice of baptism from that dead. That's no reason to insert some doctrine into that verse that is not found anywhere in the Bible.

There are also meanings of Hebrew words and phrases that scholars may not all agree on. Is the word translated 'navel' a euphemism for something else like it was in a certain dialects of Arabic, for example? That's questionable. You are insisting on a particular interpretation of 'gathered to his people', where you interject a doctrine that just isn't found elsewhere in the Bible.
You've never heard anyone baptize people for the dead saints? Catholics have been doing this since inception yet they are still wrong because they baptize babies who still don't know right from wrong.
I have never heard of Roman Catholics baptizing for the dead, and from what I have read, they aren't sure what the verse is referring to.
Do not also bring the Mormon practice of baptizing on behalf of the dead, Paul was not talking of 'on behalf' but 'for' the dead.
Now first of all, that is a pretty ridiculous argument if we are talking about the English language. The concept of 'on behalf of' is a subset of 'for.' In some cases 'for' means 'on behalf of.'

Secondly, if you look up what the word translated 'for' here-- 'hyper' in Greek means, 'on behalf of' is one of the glosses for the meaning, and there are translations that translate it that way in certain contexts. I am not sure if we are allowed to post links, but you can look it up on Bible Hub. You can look up the 5228 or just do a Google search for G5228 in the Strong's and you will see it.

Now, I have read the theory that 'hyper' might mean 'above' here. That one makes sense and is less of a challenge to traditional ideas about salvation than the idea that they were baptized for deceased catechumens (or cultural equivalent)-- which would be a debatable practice to say the lease. 'Hyper' can be translated above as in 'a servant is not above his master', but I am not sure if that applies to physical location.

I think what is leading you off the path is you reject the idea of a bodily resurrection and so you when you read passages linking the resurrection to water baptism, maybe it does not sink in, or maybe you just are not familiar with the passages.

Romans 6 says that as many have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death. If we have been planted with him in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. Colossians 2 also says being buried with him in baptism, wherein we are also raised with him.

So baptism in Paul's teaching is connected to death and resurrection. We begin to experience benefits of it in this life, and it find a more ultimate fulfillment in the resurrection of the dead with the redemption of our bodies.

So Paul's question regarding why some were baptized 'for' the dead--whatever that means-- if the dead rise not at all should be viewed in the light that our being baptized into Christ connects us with his death and resurrection and is related to our future resurrection. That's just consistent with everything else Paul says about baptism. The verse is not a justification for reinterpreting resurrection in some kind of weird way that the first century Christians would not have even been familiar with.

I am not sure about the use of 'hyper', and I suppose I could look it up or ask someone. But it is possible that the Corinthians baptized over the tombs of their dead as an extra testament to the resurrection. But I believe baptism refers to a thorough soaking, not just a few drops of water, so I am not sure about the logistics involved. They would have had to use something besides rivers streams, and the sea in the 50's, which is possible, I suppose.

You have to understand that Paul quotes this practice as part of his resurrection argument thereby endorsing it because the underlying belief was true. By asking the question, Paul is trying to help us think on the kind of resurrection he taught. So, there's only one truth when it comes to resurrection and not so many possibilities and that truth is what those that baptized for the did believed also.
I'm also trying to think out loudly here when it comes to baptizing for the dead;
why would anyone baptize for the dead:
Is it because they believe resurrection is future or because they believe that resurrection is current and what did the Apostles teach about resurrection? And what did the prophets and the law say about it?
It is clear that Paul believed in a bodly resurrection. It is a belief he held in common with the Pharisees (or rather with other Pharisees), a point he emphasized during his trial. Paul believed in a future resurrection. Water baptism is very much related to the resurrection in Paul's thoughts and writings, and in Peter's also.
To me, it is clear, the Apostles taught that their own deaths would benefit their listeners and the Law prophesied that the OT saints would be 'gathered to their people'. And that's that.
Why not just interpret 'gathered to their people' to mean 'eat chocolate and bananas'? I am not seeing the connection between your idea and what it says in the text. You have a theory, and you are reading it into phrases and passages that do not support it.

Do you actually know of anyone else who holds to this theory of yours? Would your eyes be the only ones that are enlightened out of everyone else that has lived throughout the history of the church to understand these things? Christians need fellowship with other believers, otherwise, there is a danger they could go off into false doctrine, and also, like we see in Hebrews, be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Some of your your views, or at least the one about about the resurrection of the body, seem to fall into the 'heretic' category from a traditional historical perspective, quite frankly. I suspect you know that.
 
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Obviously, you do not know what you are talking about. You may be certain of whatever it is you think, but you keep posting verses that do not support the theories you propose, and feeling certain about it.


Not only are you wrong but also confused for dismissing what you believe, an end of age resurrection which was part of the options given.
No, I rejected the bizaar idea of the Corinthians being baptized in the name of the saints--which was part of the end-time resurrection scenario you proposed. That is just weird, has nothing to do with the teaching of the New Testament. Matthew writes about baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Acts writes about baptism in the name of Jesus.

{quote]
There can't be many possibilities when it comes to truth, just one truth out of many lies.[/quote]

I would agree with you on that. But we should also both be realistic and realize that are some details that aren't revealed in the Bible and some areas where scholars might debate what things mean, some nitty gritty details. Paul addressed two women who were disputing. We do not know what they were arguing about because the passage does not tell us. We do not know the details fo the Corinthian practice of baptism from that dead. That's no reason to insert some doctrine into that verse that is not found anywhere in the Bible.

There are also meanings of Hebrew words and phrases that scholars may not all agree on. Is the word translated 'navel' a euphemism for something else like it was in a certain dialects of Arabic, for example? That's questionable. You are insisting on a particular interpretation of 'gathered to his people', where you interject a doctrine that just isn't found elsewhere in the Bible.


I have never heard of Roman Catholics baptizing for the dead, and from what I have read, they aren't sure what the verse is referring to.


Now first of all, that is a pretty ridiculous argument if we are talking about the English language. The concept of 'on behalf of' is a subset of 'for.' In some cases 'for' means 'on behalf of.'

Secondly, if you look up what the word translated 'for' here-- 'hyper' in Greek means, 'on behalf of' is one of the glosses for the meaning, and there are translations that translate it that way in certain contexts. I am not sure if we are allowed to post links, but you can look it up on Bible Hub. You can look up the 5228 or just do a Google search for G5228 in the Strong's and you will see it.

Now, I have read the theory that 'hyper' might mean 'above' here. That one makes sense and is less of a challenge to traditional ideas about salvation than the idea that they were baptized for deceased catechumens (or cultural equivalent)-- which would be a debatable practice to say the lease. 'Hyper' can be translated above as in 'a servant is not above his master', but I am not sure if that applies to physical location.

I think what is leading you off the path is you reject the idea of a bodily resurrection and so you when you read passages linking the resurrection to water baptism, maybe it does not sink in, or maybe you just are not familiar with the passages.

Romans 6 says that as many have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death. If we have been planted with him in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection. Colossians 2 also says being buried with him in baptism, wherein we are also raised with him.

So baptism in Paul's teaching is connected to death and resurrection. We begin to experience benefits of it in this life, and it find a more ultimate fulfillment in the resurrection of the dead with the redemption of our bodies.

So Paul's question regarding why some were baptized 'for' the dead--whatever that means-- if the dead rise not at all should be viewed in the light that our being baptized into Christ connects us with his death and resurrection and is related to our future resurrection. That's just consistent with everything else Paul says about baptism. The verse is not a justification for reinterpreting resurrection in some kind of weird way that the first century Christians would not have even been familiar with.

I am not sure about the use of 'hyper', and I suppose I could look it up or ask someone. But it is possible that the Corinthians baptized over the tombs of their dead as an extra testament to the resurrection. But I believe baptism refers to a thorough soaking, not just a few drops of water, so I am not sure about the logistics involved. They would have had to use something besides rivers streams, and the sea in the 50's, which is possible, I suppose.



It is clear that Paul believed in a bodly resurrection. It is a belief he held in common with the Pharisees (or rather with other Pharisees), a point he emphasized during his trial. Paul believed in a future resurrection. Water baptism is very much related to the resurrection in Paul's thoughts and writings, and in Peter's also.


Why not just interpret 'gathered to their people' to mean 'eat chocolate and bananas'? I am not seeing the connection between your idea and what it says in the text. You have a theory, and you are reading it into phrases and passages that do not support it.

Do you actually know of anyone else who holds to this theory of yours? Would your eyes be the only ones that are enlightened out of everyone else that has lived throughout the history of the church to understand these things? Christians need fellowship with other believers, otherwise, there is a danger they could go off into false doctrine, and also, like we see in Hebrews, be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Some of your your views, or at least the one about about the resurrection of the body, seem to fall into the 'heretic' category from a traditional historical perspective, quite frankly. I suspect you know that.[/QUOTE]


A Prophetic word unto you.. My FATHER IS AGAINST THOSE who TEACH HIS children to "FLY" TO SAVE THEIR SOUL, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Ezekiel 13:20-23
Wherefore thus saith the Lord Thy FATHER; Behold, I am against your pillows, [meaning your soft teachings] wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I PRAYED to My FATHER NOT TO TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, but rather to PROTECT you from the EVIL that is about to come unto you, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. John 17:15-20 I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.

For these are the SECRETS and the MYSTERIES that I said that I would make known unto you have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures...
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord 'thy Father’ will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints. Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the ‘MYSTERY’, which from the ‘BEGINNING’ of the world hath been hid in ‘the Father’, who “CREATED’ all things by Yahoshua Christ.
Continue to Part 2...
 
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Part 2...

Do not allow yourself to AWAKEN in a PLACE YOU HAVE NO IDEA, WHEN, WHERE, or HOW YOU GOT THERE, for you have been WARNED, as I had promised that I would do, for My SHEEP KNOW MY VOICE AND THEY FOLLOW ME, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ meaning the ANOITNED ONE unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. John 10:25-30 YAHOSHUA answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.I and my Father are one.

For now I have made you ACCOUNTABLE, saith YAHOSHUA. Do not allow yourself to be found on My Left side with the goats, for you have been WARNED, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, [which means My SPIRIT BODY, saith YAHOSHUA] and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Shalom
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,198
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We do not know the details fo the Corinthian practice of baptism from that dead

We don't. But the simple answer is that the term "baptism" is being used is the equivalent to "believe" or "saved" or similar (as it is in other scriptures) , and the reason for the (formerly unbelieving) Corinthians "believing" is due to how these former unbelievers either observed the Grace and hope that was upon the believing now deceased saints or perhaps the yearning for an afterlife or perhaps a yearning for the fellowship of now deceased Saints.

Three factors driving people to be "converted" due to the "dead".

But nobody knows for sure. And since this is never to be considered doctrine, the solution matters little and we need not dwell upon it.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
6,495
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Btw, I believe that God can use believers in the gift of prophecy. But I would like to clarify that that does not mean that I accept that all who claim to prophesy from the Lord are actually doing so.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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You were the one who threw out the mourning theory first. This is not a hill I would die on, regarding the interpretation of this phrase that it is quite clearly an idiom. In one of the verses I mentioned a patriarch was gathered to his 'fathers.' I would take the idiom to refer, most likely, to going the same place where his fathers went when they died in the past. You could take that to going the way of his ancestors, who were buried in the earth. It might refer to the disembodied dead going somewhere in the afterlife. I am not sure if the ancient Hebrews knew much about that or had beliefs about that to show up in an idiom like this without further explanation.

But there is absolutely no reason to think it means the spirit of Moses got distributed among the living people there. You have a strange theory, and you keep reading it into verses that offer it no support whatsoever.

Paul writing about bearing about in his body the death of Christ is about how he lived his life. Christ had said if any man come after him, let him take up his cross daily and follow Him. When was in Philippi, he was beaten and after it was all over with, told them he was a Roman citizen. The scandal might have bought other believers there he'd won to Christ a bit of a reprieve from the government who did not want to dig up the scandal with Paul. Paul suffered so that others could hear the Gospel. He poured out his life like a drink offering. None of these verses say that when he died, his spirit got divided up, distributed, absorbed, etc. by the church. That's just not in any of the verses you have shown. You keep showing verses that in no way support your claim and reading the idea into them. I even showed you a passage where he wrote that it would be good for him to go but beneficial for the Philippians if he stayed alive.
Jumping from one ship to another. At first, it was an idiom for death, then for burying and mourning and now it is an idiom to 'where their fathers went'.
Wrong again; Abraham was the father of faith, where do you think his fathers went? and could it be the same place he went?
And turn that to me, i don't talk about idioms ever.

Nobody talked about Paul's suffering, i talked about his resurrection and being presented /caught together with his listeners which he said would benefit them.
And you were also refuted with the point about Paul saying it is better to be with the Lord- If the Lord is distributed among the believers and Paul wants to be with the Lord, then Paul also would be distributed among the believers.

2 Cor 4:13 It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself.

1 Thess 4:13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Very simple; the dead in Christ arise and are caught together with those that live. At one moment, Paul counts himself among the living when the dead are caught up together with them and another moment among the dead who were raised and caught up with his listeners at Corinth. In the above, Paul is not talking about idioms and suffering fro the gospel.
 
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A Prophetic word... Prophesy is ONLY SPOKEN THROUGH MY FATHER'S WORDS, and his WORDS ALONE. That is why NO ONE SHOULD BE SPEAKING His WORDS, WITHOUT SCRIPTURES FOLLOWING.. This is why I say FULFILLING THE FATHER Scriptures, not MAN'S TRADITIONS that have made My FATHER'S WORDS of NONE EFFECT, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Mark 7:6-9 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of the FATHER, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of the FATHER that ye may keep your own tradition. Mark 7:13-16 Making the word of the FATHER OF NONE EFFECT THROUGH YOUR TRADITION, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of the FATHER, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of the FATHER may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. This is what I have prepared her to bring, not man's words,but MINE, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the Christ unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, for it was I that have PREPARED HER, as a child, saith YAHOSHUA, for no man has taught her, but I through My SPIRIT saith YAHOSHUA, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ YAHOSHUA.



Shalom