Speaking in tongues

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Sketch

Active member
Nov 1, 2018
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The word 'maybe' in your answer, is an indication of something really wrong. ...
The answer to the above questions is a big NO all the way, same as the issue on tongues or healing or miracles. NO NO NO.
You are welcome to your opinion. But it is just that, your opinion.
Unless you are claiming that God spoke to you. (can't happen, right?)
The words "NO NO NO" in your answer, is an indication of something really wrong.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
2,061
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You are still hung up on the groaning part and ignoring the Spirit interceding part. So I was right.
What does it mean to pray in the Spirit?

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

Romans 8:26-28
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Spirit is a mind. So you are asking me what it means to pray in the mind?
The answer is simple, it has nothing to do with the tongue. The work of the tongue is making known physically, what is in the mind/spirit to those that have physical ears otherwise God already knows what is in our mind before we are even born.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
2,061
269
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You are welcome to your opinion. But it is just that, your opinion.
Unless you are claiming that God spoke to you. (can't happen, right?)
The words "NO NO NO" in your answer, is an indication of something really wrong.
No, don't turn that on me, i'm actually very secure.
On your part, not so much for saying maybe you'd believe someone who comes and claims to be God. This kind of thought should be very far from you and your descendants and those after them.

It actually shows shows how gullible the proponents of tongues are, they can accept anything.
 

Sketch

Active member
Nov 1, 2018
678
146
43
Spirit is a mind. So you are asking me what it means to pray in the mind?
The answer is simple, it has nothing to do with the tongue. The work of the tongue is making known physically, what is in the mind/spirit to those that have physical ears otherwise God already knows what is in our mind before we are even born.
But this scripture says the Spirit intercedes for us when we don't know what to pray.

Romans 8:26-28
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
 

Sketch

Active member
Nov 1, 2018
678
146
43
No, don't turn that on me, i'm actually very secure.
On your part, not so much for saying maybe you'd believe someone who comes and claims to be God. This kind of thought should be very far from you and your descendants and those after them.

It actually shows shows how gullible the proponents of tongues are, they can accept anything.
Explain what happened to Moses at the burning bush and why this could NEVER happen again. Thanks.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
2,061
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But this scripture says the Spirit intercedes for us when we don't know what to pray.

Romans 8:26-28
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
That doesn't mean we open our mouth and speak meaningless words, it only means the will of God will be done in our life and no one knows the will of God other than God Himself.

My opinionated example: Many don't know what they ought to pray for, someone prays for fancy shoes and the devil is planning how they will loose both their legs in a car accident, so the spirit of God intercedes with wordless groans because He loves us.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
2,061
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Explain what happened to Moses at the burning bush and why this could NEVER happen again. Thanks.
Heb 1:1In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Matt 21:
33“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

I don't think God will be sending servants again, the word of God came in the form of the son, we either listen to Him or be judged.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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What I meant.....is that incident legitimate, real, bona fide, tongues? Or babbling fraud?
Bona fided tongues, "God bringing new revelations in all the languages of all the nations and no longer in Hebrew alone", as before Acts 2 has ceased . No new revelations therefore no new knowledge.

God is no longer bring new prophecy today after any manner to include a tongue . If a person does not understand the translation of the Bible they do have .They should look for another translation .Most languages are covered. The Missionaries have ben busy getting the word out in different languages

But to go beyond that which is written as if he was still bringing new prophecy after any manner would be to violate the warning as the end of the book of prophecy (Revelation) .

Why would a parson desire more that God has given us remains a mystery? .

Is their law missing by which we could know and do His will more adequately?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
7,374
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What's being revived? The Tower of Babble?

Scripture is clear who the sign points to and what it confirms .It takes a little home work . Just look to the foundation of the law found in 1 Corinthians 14;21-22

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, "not to them that believe", but to them that "believe not": but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The foundation for the doctrine of tongues is found in Isiah 28:11-15

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:Isiah 28:11-15

Its not a matter if one has salvation or not. You will not looses salvation .....just a little self edification.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
6,760
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Why would a parson desire more that God has given us remains a mystery? .

Is their law missing by which we could know and do His will more adequately?
God speaks to His children. It has nothing to do with "a missing law".
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
322
25
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Why would you say that is speaking in tongues on a topic about the manifestation of the Holy Spirit?
I’m not sure I quite understand your question.

When it comes to the subject of “tongues”, one must make a distinction between “Biblical ‘tongues’” and what modern tongues-speakers are producing.

When it comes to something spoken, there are no Biblical reference to “tongues” that do not refer to, and cannot be explained in light of, real rational language(s). Biblical ‘tongues’ are nothing more than real, rational languages.

Conversely, there is nothing tongues-speakers are producing that cannot be explained in natural/linguistic terms.


I don't hold the same view as many with respect to 'gifts of the Holy Spirit' or 'spiritual gifts' -

As you may know, there is actually only one place in the entire NT where the term “spiritual gifts” is used (Romans 1:11). After Paul uses the term, he then goes on to define it in verse 12: “that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.” Not much there to support some sort of supernatural extraordinary meaning for the term. The meaning of “spiritual gift”, as Paul uses it, is pretty straightforward.

Considering the fact Paul wrote three letters to three different groups of early Christians describing spiritual ‘gifts’ and did not routinely repeat the same list of gifts, it’s probably safe to assume there are additional spiritual gifts unlisted in his writings.


I would argue that any natural (God-given) talent may be said to be a “spiritual gift” if used in the ministry of God. Paul describes nine specific ones in his letter to the church in Corinth that he felt were the most important to further the message of Christianity in that church at that time and perhaps also in that area of the world.

The spiritual “gift of tongues” (read “manifestation of languages”) in addition to being a knack/ability, what we might call a “natural (or even “God given”) talent” for learning languages easily than others, it is, as far as Paul was concerned, using that ability in spreading the message of Christianity and to the further glory of God.

The “gift of tongues” therefore, does not describe xenoglossia; the ability to speak a language one has never learned or been exposed to in any way, shape, or form.

It can, of course, be argued that anyone can be granted the ‘gift/ability/knack’ for great wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing abilities, etc., just as anyone can be granted the ability to easily learn languages and/or translate those languages….. But it’s how that gift/ability/talent is used that determines/defines it as a ‘manifestation/gift of the H/S”.

Take a totally different ‘gift’ – music. A person may be a ‘gifted’ musician, have the ability/knack/talent, etc. to easily learn to play all sorts of instruments, or to excel at singing, or composing, etc.

For such a person, I would say that they have a God-given ‘gift’ for music. Sure, just about anyone can learn to play an instrument, or to sing, or even compose, but there are those who we say are truly ‘gifted’ at it. Their ability/talent far exceeds the ‘norm’.

Can we say that this is a God-given gift? Yes, I think so. Can it be considered a gift/manifestation of the H/S? I would say if that ability is somehow used in the service of God in whatever way, such that through this ability one could sort of ‘see the power of God’ or the H/S working though this person (that’s probably not the best way to put it, but the only way I can think of to try and explain what I mean by it), then, yes, I would say that it is a manifestation of the H/S. I think that what’s being ‘manifested’ is not so much the particular ability, but rather for an ‘onlooker’ to see the power of God working through this person to further the glory of God (if that makes any sense).

So does that mean that if one has such an ability/gift and doesn’t use it ‘in the service of God‘, that it’s not a ‘gift’? No, I don’t think so. It is a God-given gift; but, it’s not really a manifestation of the H/S either.


When I play around with the sounds of language and just let my subconscious take over and let the sounds flow, with respect to the mechanics behind it, I’m doing the exact same thing any tongues-speaker is doing; producing non-cognitive, non-language utterance – random free-vocalization. Some may call it ‘gibberish’ or ‘babbling’, but there’s a difference; gibberish/babbling does not intend to mimic language – random-free vocalization does.

The only difference between what you’re doing and what I’m doing is the _’experience’_ - You’re producing this in conjunction with a religious ‘experience’; I am not. Therefore, your views/beliefs on what you’re doing are going to be totally different from mine, even though linguistically, we’re both producing the exact same thing.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
6,760
1,886
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I’m not sure I quite understand your question.

When it comes to the subject of “tongues”, one must make a distinction between “Biblical ‘tongues’” and what modern tongues-speakers are producing.

When it comes to something spoken, there are no Biblical reference to “tongues” that do not refer to, and cannot be explained in light of, real rational language(s). Biblical ‘tongues’ are nothing more than real, rational languages.

Conversely, there is nothing tongues-speakers are producing that cannot be explained in natural/linguistic terms.

I don't hold the same view as many with respect to 'gifts of the Holy Spirit' or 'spiritual gifts' -

As you may know, there is actually only one place in the entire NT where the term “spiritual gifts” is used (Romans 1:11). After Paul uses the term, he then goes on to define it in verse 12: “that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.” Not much there to support some sort of supernatural extraordinary meaning for the term. The meaning of “spiritual gift”, as Paul uses it, is pretty straightforward.

Considering the fact Paul wrote three letters to three different groups of early Christians describing spiritual ‘gifts’ and did not routinely repeat the same list of gifts, it’s probably safe to assume there are additional spiritual gifts unlisted in his writings.

I would argue that any natural (God-given) talent may be said to be a “spiritual gift” if used in the ministry of God. Paul describes nine specific ones in his letter to the church in Corinth that he felt were the most important to further the message of Christianity in that church at that time and perhaps also in that area of the world.

The spiritual “gift of tongues” (read “manifestation of languages”) in addition to being a knack/ability, what we might call a “natural (or even “God given”) talent” for learning languages easily than others, it is, as far as Paul was concerned, using that ability in spreading the message of Christianity and to the further glory of God.

The “gift of tongues” therefore, does not describe xenoglossia; the ability to speak a language one has never learned or been exposed to in any way, shape, or form.

It can, of course, be argued that anyone can be granted the ‘gift/ability/knack’ for great wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing abilities, etc., just as anyone can be granted the ability to easily learn languages and/or translate those languages….. But it’s how that gift/ability/talent is used that determines/defines it as a ‘manifestation/gift of the H/S”.

Take a totally different ‘gift’ – music. A person may be a ‘gifted’ musician, have the ability/knack/talent, etc. to easily learn to play all sorts of instruments, or to excel at singing, or composing, etc.

For such a person, I would say that they have a God-given ‘gift’ for music. Sure, just about anyone can learn to play an instrument, or to sing, or even compose, but there are those who we say are truly ‘gifted’ at it. Their ability/talent far exceeds the ‘norm’.

Can we say that this is a God-given gift? Yes, I think so. Can it be considered a gift/manifestation of the H/S? I would say if that ability is somehow used in the service of God in whatever way, such that through this ability one could sort of ‘see the power of God’ or the H/S working though this person (that’s probably not the best way to put it, but the only way I can think of to try and explain what I mean by it), then, yes, I would say that it is a manifestation of the H/S. I think that what’s being ‘manifested’ is not so much the particular ability, but rather for an ‘onlooker’ to see the power of God working through this person to further the glory of God (if that makes any sense).

So does that mean that if one has such an ability/gift and doesn’t use it ‘in the service of God‘, that it’s not a ‘gift’? No, I don’t think so. It is a God-given gift; but, it’s not really a manifestation of the H/S either.
I've seen this argument before. I think it's incorrect because Scripture specifies that these "abilities" are gifts of the Holy Spirit. What you describe are simply innate (born-with) abilities. While I agree that such are also God-given, I think a distinction must be made between gifts given to believers in Christ (after salvation) and those given generally. The examples in Acts of Holy Spirit-empowered tongue-speaking (chapters 10 and 19) are not examples of innate linguistic facility. Either all such gifts are innate, and therefore not specific to Christians (as non-Christians can be medical doctors, polyglots, "spiritually sensitive", etc.), or there is a distinction, and they are specific to Christians.
 

cv5

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
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Since you don't believe that the gifts are given today, why do you care?
To answer your question:
1) I absolutely believe in the miraculous gift of tongues.
2) Any Christian would care (as I do) of upholding the genuine phenomenon of
sign gifts and miracles, and denouncing the frauds and deceivers.

So I have given you a straight answer, unfortunately I expect never to be provided a straight answer out of you. Too bad about that. There are those that will call out the frauds and false prophets and there are those that are too timid to do what the Scripture says and take a stand and point a finger and give a warning.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
6,760
1,886
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So I have given you a straight answer, unfortunately I expect never to be provided a straight answer out of you. Too bad about that. There are those that will call out the frauds and false prophets and there are those that are too timid to do what the Scripture says and take a stand and point a finger and give a warning.
Since I don't see where you have asked me a question, I consider your bleating irrelevant, disingenuous, and insulting.
 
Dec 3, 2018
10
2
3
To answer your question:
1) I absolutely believe in the miraculous gift of tongues.
2) Any Christian would care (as I do) of upholding the genuine phenomenon of
sign gifts and miracles, and denouncing the frauds and deceivers.

So I have given you a straight answer, unfortunately I expect never to be provided a straight answer out of you. Too bad about that. There are those that will call out the frauds and false prophets and there are those that are too timid to do what the Scripture says and take a stand and point a finger and give a warning.
I agree in part with that. The issue is clear those in the video are in error. And using what is a gift of God out of order. As many do. These gross examples of abuse do not dismiss the empowring of the Holy Spirit, but reaffirms that man yet gain as we see in the word of God will misuse the gifts God has intrusted man with.
 

cv5

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
448
104
28
Since I don't see where you have asked me a question, I consider your bleating irrelevant, disingenuous, and insulting.
You may recall that I have asked several question, and gauging the possible answers to "true" and "false" to limit the ambivalence and obfuscation.
Seeing as I failed to obtain a cogent and straightforward response from you thus far, please consider my assertion to be relevant to all future questions.
 

cv5

Active member
Nov 20, 2018
448
104
28
I agree in part with that. The issue is clear those in the video are in error. And using what is a gift of God out of order. As many do. These gross examples of abuse do not dismiss the empowring of the Holy Spirit, but reaffirms that man yet gain as we see in the word of God will misuse the gifts God has intrusted man with.
What you see in those two videos are the outrageous fraudulent mockery of toungues
by two of the most notorious false prophets in the world today. Any other opinion is hopelessly inadequate, inaccurate, unhelpful, and does nothing to warn the potential victims of these charlatans.
 
Dec 3, 2018
10
2
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What you see in those two videos are the outrageous fraudulent mockery of toungues
by two of the most notorious false prophets in the world today. Any other opinion is hopelessly inadequate, inaccurate, unhelpful, and does nothing to warn the potential victims of these charlatans.
Of course, that is your opinion, which is not superior to my opinion. Also, I would never use the word prophet in context to them. Would you say they are not saved too? Why don't you Condemn them to hell to while your at it. Being in error is not a like assessment of the video. Clearly you follow them more then I do.