Speaking in tongues

[CS1]

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Simply what it means.

You accusing me of being prideful reveals who is prideful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

the " have not" Love is the context of what makes the speaking with tongues of men or angels nothing. That does not mean it is meaningless. The 1cor 13 chapter is saying do all from love which should motivate one to do. IF you are not loving then what you are doing is meaningless . But that is not the permanent states of the Gift of tongues or any Gift from the Holy Spirit.

 

[CS1]

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Simply what it means.

You accusing me of being prideful reveals who is prideful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

you ARE prideful and unlearned too.

 

[CS1]

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Simply what it means.

You accusing me of being prideful reveals who is prideful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

yes you.

 

[Dino246]

I gave you verses that help illustrate what Paul is endeavoring to convey in the passage you cite. I think you wanted to cite 1 Cor 2:4-5 not 1 Cor 1:4-5.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are correct on the verse address.

However, you are playing one passage against another; that is not sound hermeneutics. Paul wasn't advocating a "words-only" gospel in one place and a "signs and wonders" gospel in another. Rather, in chapter 1, Paul is talking about the message of Christ crucified being a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Greeks. The verses you cited suggest that the medium of preaching itself was the foolishness, undermining the sense of the passage completely. Preaching by itself wasn't the issue at all.

Here's the passage from the NIV, 1:21-25:
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

 

[Dino246]

second; There's no where the scripture says a believer, new or old must operate in gifts.

I didn't claim that there was.

In Heb 2 above, Paul would have said 'the gospel will continue to be confirmed through signs' but he chose not to say that.

Fallacy: argument from silence.

First; There's no such thing as more advanced in faith- of all men born of women, no one's greatness surpassed that of John the baptist, yet he was the least in the kingdom of God.

Was Paul given a personal revelation of the gospel? Is it a reasonable conclusion that he had a better understanding of it than any of the people to whom he wrote? Yes on both counts. Did I claim that he was on some "higher plane of faith"? No. Don't be so quick to assume that I'm way off track just because my phrasing doesn't meet your approval.

This is just one of blatant miscommunication from your poor argument.

Along with being quick to misunderstand, you are quick to throw shade.

The perfect love comes with Christ as indicated in 1 John 4; Paul himself was eagerly waiting for Christ whose coming was just around the corner as indicated by Paul himself in his lifetime and not 21st century and counting.

You blithely deconstruct your own argument and don't see it. If the faith that Paul had was "perfected" as you suggest, then even Paul himself would not have spoken in tongues. If Paul's faith were yet imperfect and awaited a 1st-century completion, then that completion should be evident... and isn't. There wasn't a second round of events that made Christianity something more in the second century and beyond than it wasn't in the first century. If you think otherwise, you're welcome to identify them.

 

[notuptome]

You are correct on the verse address.

However, you are playing one passage against another; that is not sound hermeneutics. Paul wasn't advocating a "words-only" gospel in one place and a "signs and wonders" gospel in another. Rather, in chapter 1, Paul is talking about the message of Christ crucified being a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Greeks. The verses you cited suggest that the medium of preaching itself was the foolishness, undermining the sense of the passage completely. Preaching by itself wasn't the issue at all.

Here's the passage from the NIV, 1:21-25:
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Paul is still in Romans attributing it to the word of God through which the gospel is preached.

Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Signs and wonders are not the gospel. Paul preached without a complete NT so the Holy Spirit confirmed his ministry with signs and wonders. So let's not confound the gospel with that which is not the gospel. Jesus in John 16:8-11 tells us how it will be when we preach the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

the " have not" Love is the context of what makes the speaking with tongues of men or angels nothing. That does not mean it is meaningless. The 1cor 13 chapter is saying do all from love which should motivate one to do. IF you are not loving then what you are doing is meaningless . But that is not the permanent states of the Gift of tongues or any Gift from the Holy Spirit.

So says the guy who cannot biblically demonstrate what constitutes tongues. You really have a comprehension problem. If you think tinkling brass is a good description you do not know what the intent of the descriptor in the passage is intended to convey.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

you ARE prideful and unlearned too.

yes you.

Wow.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Paul is still in Romans attributing it to the word of God through which the gospel is preached.

Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Signs and wonders are not the gospel. Paul preached without a complete NT so the Holy Spirit confirmed his ministry with signs and wonders. So let's not confound the gospel with that which is not the gospel. Jesus in John 16:8-11 tells us how it will be when we preach the word of God.

You are misunderstanding me and responding to what I have not claimed.

There is indeed one gospel. It is the message preached by Paul and attested with signs and wonders.

What I hear you claiming is that the attestation of signs and wonders is irrelevant because we now have the completed canon of Scripture. However, Paul didn't claim that, nor did any other NT author.

If that isn't your claim, then perhaps you'd care to clarify.

 

[Waggles]

It is all the body of Christ, every believer that has been made clean through the blood of Christ.

No it ain't.
A believer (disciple, follower of Jesus as Lord and Saviour) MUST be born new again by baptism of water and Spirit.
And as we can all read in our NT there were given to converts evidence of their entering into the Kingdom of God:
speaking in tongues (that is being able to pray daily and often in the Spirit not just with understanding of the mind),
laying hands on the sick and praying for their healing, casting out demons (not just popular notions of exorcisms) but
praying for people to be set free from the power of sin and sinful addictions/habits; divine protection; miracles; healings …

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:

 

[notuptome]

You are misunderstanding me and responding to what I have not claimed.

There is indeed one gospel. It is the message preached by Paul and attested with signs and wonders.

What I hear you claiming is that the attestation of signs and wonders is irrelevant because we now have the completed canon of Scripture. However, Paul didn't claim that, nor did any other NT author.

If that isn't your claim, then perhaps you'd care to clarify.

The NT was not completed when the author's were writing it. Paul said three gifts would end with the completion. Jesus said it is the word of God ministered according to the Holy Spirit that would effect men's hearts. Jesus said that many followed for the signs but turned away at doctrine.

If they did not follow Jesus because of the miracles they will not follow Jesus today because of any miracles, wonders or tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

No it ain't.
A believer (disciple, follower of Jesus as Lord and Saviour) MUST be born new again by baptism of water and Spirit.
And as we can all read in our NT there were given to converts evidence of their entering into the Kingdom of God:
speaking in tongues (that is being able to pray daily and often in the Spirit not just with understanding of the mind),
laying hands on the sick and praying for their healing, casting out demons (not just popular notions of exorcisms) but
praying for people to be set free from the power of sin and sinful addictions/habits; divine protection; miracles; healings …

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:

Patently false gospel when you add water baptism.

Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon those in the upper room long before Pentecost and wholly apart from water.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

So says the guy who cannot biblically demonstrate what constitutes tongues. You really have a comprehension problem. If you think tinkling brass is a good description you do not know what the intent of the descriptor in the passage is intended to convey.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

well, the insult of my understanding is ok coming from you, I will wear it as a badge Honor LOL. I do not perform acts for you in the gifts of the Holy Spirit who are you now acting like Simon the sorcerer In Acts. 1cor chapter 12 through 14 will explain for you as will the book of Acts. You need not for me to do anything.

 

[Dino246]

The NT was not completed when the author's were writing it.

Obviously.

Paul said three gifts would end with the completion (of the NT).

No, he didn't. He said that the three gifts would cease "when the perfect comes" (NIV). He did not specify in that passage to what "the perfect" referred.

Jesus said it is the word of God ministered according to the Holy Spirit that would effect men's hearts.

The word is "affect" in this case. "Effect" is only used as a verb in the sense of "bring forth" or "bring about" as in "to effect change".

Jesus said that many followed for the signs but turned away at doctrine.

True, but we are discussing Paul's ministry, not that of Jesus. Scripture gives only one example of someone following the apostolic ministry for signs and wonders, and he was soundly rebuked.

If they did not follow Jesus because of the miracles they will not follow Jesus today because of any miracles, wonders or tongues.

However, they did follow Jesus because of the miracles.

 

[garee]

If you equate prophecy with teaching the word of God, then wouldn't adding doctrine be adding prophecy? And if all new prophecy is violating that passage at the end of the book of Revelation, wouldn't you be guilty of the plagues in the book for adding your new cessationist doctrine? I do not say I agree with you on your re-definition of prophecy or your idea of what it means to add to the book of Revelation, but you seem to be inconsistent on this point. I hope you aren't judged by your own standards.

I hope I am not judged by my standard either.

The Holy Spirit is the teacher. He teaches us his interpretation and brings to mind that which he has taught us.

One is our teaching master in heaven just in the same way one is our Holy Father. We neither call any man on earth good teacher as master as the same with the word Father. We are all brothers and sister who offer our own private interpretations as personal commentaries of what we believe he has taught us.

2 Peter 1:20-21 King James Version (KJV) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The plagues are in respect to any who add or substract form his interpretation the book of prophecy . We have it in whole.

And its not my re-definition of prophecy . Prohecy is the word of God, His interpretation . When prophets prophesy they declare the word of God prophecy .

"Face to face" or glory to glory as the complete knowledge by which we can know Him who has not form. No longer in part

2 Corinthians 4:6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Noose]

Was Paul given a personal revelation of the gospel? Is it a reasonable conclusion that he had a better understanding of it than any of the people to whom he wrote? Yes on both counts. Did I claim that he was on some "higher plane of faith"? No. Don't be so quick to assume that I'm way off track just because my phrasing doesn't meet your approval.

Nope. There's no such thing as personal or public revelation, revelation is just revelation. Paul was only isolated because his life was in danger and even the apostles didn't trust him initially. Again, there's no such thing as private revelation that is greater than public revelation.

Paul had better understanding yes but it is not their understanding that was to be perfected, they were waiting for perfect love and 1 Cor 13 is all about love and 1 John 4 has explained what perfect love is.
No higher faith either; in matters spirituality, the one who is like a child is greater than all in the kingdom of God. So Paul being a servant would count himself the least in everything because he is called to serve.

You blithely deconstruct your own argument and don't see it. If the faith that Paul had was "perfected" as you suggest, then even Paul himself would not have spoken in tongues. If Paul's faith were yet imperfect and awaited a 1st-century completion, then that completion should be evident... and isn't. There wasn't a second round of events that made Christianity something more in the second century and beyond than it wasn't in the first century. If you think otherwise, you're welcome to identify them.

I said love is perfected and perfect love comes with Christ when He indwells them.

1 John 4:
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

And when was this expected? it couldn't be 21st century and counting.

Heb 2:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
......
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For,
in just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.


Which day was approaching? and did they ever got to that day? either Paul was a bad liar for telling his 1st century listeners to wait for the Lord or he was inspired by God and what he said actually happened.

I'm 100% sure that day came and from that time on, gifts ceased.

 

[garee]

Nope. There's no such thing as personal or public revelation, revelation is just revelation. Paul was only isolated because his life was in danger and even the apostles didn't trust him initially. Again, there's no such thing as private revelation that is greater than public revelation.

Amen revelation is interpretation. Knowing first things first no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation as coming from the will of man. But God's thoughts as he moves men to do His will

Private revelation is simply the oral traditions of men that seek to make the word of God without effct. This is so they can rather do whatsoever their own mouths say as commandment of men.

A good example is shown uses Catholisicim as a law of their fathers. They conclude the perfect has not come


Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation
His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)

The doctrine of ; Just believe the skies the limit.

 

[Dino246]

Nope. There's no such thing as personal or public revelation, revelation is just revelation. Paul was only isolated because his life was in danger and even the apostles didn't trust him initially. Again, there's no such thing as private revelation that is greater than public revelation.

Paul had better understanding yes but it is not their understanding that was to be perfected, they were waiting for perfect love and 1 Cor 13 is all about love and 1 John 4 has explained what perfect love is.
No higher faith either; in matters spirituality, the one who is like a child is greater than all in the kingdom of God. So Paul being a servant would count himself the least in everything because he is called to serve.

Again you willfully misinterpret my statements. I'm not going to bother with your strawman arguments.

I said love is perfected and perfect love comes with Christ when He indwells them.

1 John 4:
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
...

Heb 2:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
......
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For,
in just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.

Which day was approaching? and did they ever got to that day? either Paul was a bad liar for telling his 1st century listeners to wait for the Lord or he was inspired by God and what he said actually happened.

I'm 100% sure that day came and from that time on, gifts ceased.

So Paul was not indwelt by God when he wrote to the Corinthians? Hogwash.

So... when did "the Day" happen? What was the date on which "love was perfected"? If your argument were sound, "the Day" would be in the past as of any time after the first century and this passage in Hebrews is of no relevance to modern Christians.

It is far more reasonable that John and Paul aren't talking about the same thing, or at least not in the same sense. How does loving one another, which does not happen for every Christian concurrently, logically constitute a single point in time at which revelatory gifts will cease? It doesn't.

 

[Dino246]

Amen revelation is interpretation. Knowing first things first no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation as coming from the will of man. But God's thoughts as he moves men to do His will

Private revelation is simply the oral traditions of men that seek to make the word of God without effct. This is so they can rather do whatsoever their own mouths say as commandment of men.

You still don't understand Peter's words. Your definition of private revelation is simply your own invention.

 

[presidente]

Nice try but NO.
The 'perfect which is to come' is nothing more than LOVE which Christ brings with Him in our hearts. Loving one another is 'being perfected in Love' and this is what is referred to as knowing God as we are known. John reiterated this simple fact here:

The problem with that is that it does not fit what the passage is saying or reality. Jesus was a great miracle Worker and 'that Prophet.' Would you say that He lacked love? Greater love hath no man that this, that a Man lay down His life for His friends. Jesus certainly did that. Did the apostles do miracle out of a lack of love?

If you look at Joel 2, the outpouring of the Spirit, which manifests in prophecy, is an end-time eschatological thing. In Acts 2, we see the time period for the outpouring of the Spirit started at that time. The Spirit does not speak to people just because they, or we, are not perfect in love. Your theory does not fit the passage or the overarching themes of scripture.

You also seem to think other Christians have everything wrong. Look around. Do you think Christians are now all perfected in love?