Speaking in tongues

[DDDo]

And they say they have interpreters- how would you know what is being interpreted is what was actually said? If it is something that lines with what the scriptures say, it is absolutely pointless and a waste of time to teach it in a new 'heavenly/angelic' language only for it to be interpreted back to something that people understand.

Tongues in the Bible is human language (Acts 2:5, 1 Corinthians 14:10), not angelic languages. Paul's mention of tongues of angels is a blatant argument from hyperbole. It doesn't in the least imply that anyone is speaking languages of angels. In fact, it really implies that people don't speak the tongues of angels. Also, there's no evidence that angels have non-human language (a pointless thing for a messenger). It's absolutely pointless for people to utter gibberish and pretend it's angelic language, so don't worry about the interpretation.

If this is not mocking God, i don't what is

I agree.

 

[DJ2]

I have little issue with people who eagerly anticipate God's handiwork in the miraculous. That is not the same as "seeking a sign".

Eagerly anticipating is a noble endeavor, falsely labeling the mundane as miraculous is blasphemy.

 

[garee]

No matter how many times you say it, the manifestation of speaking in tongues never has been, is not, and never will be, prophecy.

If you dismiss the law then tongues will never be prophecy as that spoken in other language other than Hebrew alone, but those in whom the law is revealed in the prophecy below they who refuse prophecy (the word of God) they will not hear it .

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14

Two groups of people.
(1) those who believe prophecy, God's words highlighted in green.
(2) those who will not hear the word of God highlighted in blue making it (prophecy) to no effect through the oral traditions of the fathers

(purple in parentheses) my comments to help look at the law .....not a oral tradition of men as a philosophical theory.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues (languages) and other lips (nations other than the Hebrew alone) will I speak unto this people (that refuse the word of God in exchange for the oral traditions of men) ; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues (other languages other than Hebrew alone ) are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: (no faith) but prophesying (declaring the word of God) serveth not for them that believe not, but (the word of God ) for them which believe.(the word of God )1 Corinthians 14

Modern days tongues like other what some call sign gifts like falling back slain in the spirit mock prophecy giving people a false sence of security .


Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Why go above that which is written seeing God is no longer adding new prophecy to His book of prophecy? Is there a law missing by which we could know him more fully?

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.Revelation 22:18-20
.
double amen the end .

 

[notuptome]

that is a deflection in the question you do have the ability to admit you have been corrected . and you are wrong about 1cor 13:10

The question is better asked of you.

While 1 Cor 13:10 may be subject to some interpretation the one I have offered is clearly the best and most reasonable in the context given.

What are you going to do with 1 Cor 14:14?

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

The question is better asked of you.

While 1 Cor 13:10 may be subject to some interpretation the one I have offered is clearly the best and most reasonable in the context given.

What are you going to do with 1 Cor 14:14?

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

the context of 1cor 13:10 is that of Jesus Himself . When that which is Perfect as come if you would read all of 1cor 1-16 you would see that. Of course it is better asked of me , you will not or cannot even admit you have been corrected ever.

 

[shrume]

If you dismiss the law then tongues will never be prophecy as that spoken in other language other than Hebrew alone, but those in whom the law is revealed in the prophecy below they who refuse prophecy (the word of God) they will not hear it .

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14

Two groups of people.
(1) those who believe prophecy, God's words highlighted in green.
(2) those who will not hear the word of God highlighted in blue making it (prophecy) to no effect through the oral traditions of the fathers

(purple in parentheses) my comments to help look at the law .....not a oral tradition of men as a philosophical theory.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues (languages) and other lips (nations other than the Hebrew alone) will I speak unto this people (that refuse the word of God in exchange for the oral traditions of men) ; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues (other languages other than Hebrew alone ) are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: (no faith) but prophesying (declaring the word of God) serveth not for them that believe not, but (the word of God ) for them which believe.(the word of God )1 Corinthians 14

Modern days tongues like other what some call sign gifts like falling back slain in the spirit mock prophecy giving people a false sence of security .


Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Why go above that which is written seeing God is no longer adding new prophecy to His book of prophecy? Is there a law missing by which we could know him more fully?

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.Revelation 22:18-20
.
double amen the end .

garee, your post makes no sense.

 

[shrume]

The question is better asked of you.

While 1 Cor 13:10 may be subject to some interpretation the one I have offered is clearly the best and most reasonable in the context given.

That's because you are a cessationist. You believe the "gifts" have ceased.

There is no reason to believe the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

What are you going to do with 1 Cor 14:14?

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Why does he need to "do" anything with it? Paul is stating a fact. When a person speaks (or prays) in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. That's why when tongues are spoken out loud in the church, they must be interpreted.

 

[notuptome]

the context of 1cor 13:10 is that of Jesus Himself . When that which is Perfect as come if you would read all of 1cor 1-16 you would see that. Of course it is better asked of me , you will not or cannot even admit you have been corrected ever.

From Paul's perspective Jesus had already come. No what Paul was looking for was the completion of the bible. If it had been Jesus Paul would have written when the Perfect comes again.

Part of the problem with this verse is translating the word perfect. In this verse it is better rendered completed. We have in part the OT but that which is complete OT & NT we will see as God intends for us to see.

I do not need to admit to error when I'm not in error. If you get good teaching from the start you do not need to be corrected later down the road.

There are posters here that were where you are and admitted they were in error and left Pentecostalism or charismatic churches.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

That's because you are a cessationist. You believe the "gifts" have ceased.

There is no reason to believe the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit have ceased.


Why does he need to "do" anything with it? Paul is stating a fact. When a person speaks (or prays) in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. That's why when tongues are spoken out loud in the church, they must be interpreted.

Your error regarding tongues is only one of a whole host of doctrinal positions you hold in error. Tend to your own house.

I am not a cessationist I am a bible believing Christian. The bible teaches that tongues have ended. Look for them to return during the tribulation when God deals with Israel this will be the fulfillment of Joel 2 promised at Pentecost.

Everyone who claims to pray in tongues needs to face 1 Cor 14:14 and answer why praying in an unknown tongue is determined by Paul to be unfruitful. No knowledge produces no fruit. No fruit for Christ because it is done in my spirit or the strength of the flesh and not the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

Your error regarding tongues is only one of a whole host of doctrinal positions you hold in error. Tend to your own house.

Baseless accusation. Again. You do this a lot, Roger.

I am not a cessationist I am a bible believing Christian.

By definition, a cessationist is a person who believes the "gifts" of the Holy Spirit have ceased. You believe they ceased when we got "the completed Bible". You are a cessationist.

The bible teaches that tongues have ended.

No it does not. It says that tongues WILL cease when "that which is perfect is come". That has not happened yet.

Look for them to return during the tribulation when God deals with Israel this will be the fulfillment of Joel 2 promised at Pentecost.

Please show even one single verse that says tongues will return.

Everyone who claims to pray in tongues needs to face 1 Cor 14:14 and answer why praying in an unknown tongue is determined by Paul to be unfruitful.

Yet again you twist what Paul said. You have done this many times. Paul did not say tongues is unfruitful. He said that when he speaks in tongues his understanding is unfruitful. Read it, Roger.

This is the same as what he said in 1 Cor 14:2

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

When a person speaks in tongues he does not understand what he is saying.

No knowledge produces no fruit.

You are lacking knowledge on spiritual things, Roger.

No fruit for Christ because it is done in my spirit or the strength of the flesh and not the Holy Spirit.

When a person speaks in tongues, the utterance (words) are given by the Holy Spirit. When a person speaks in tongues, he edifies himself (1 Cor 14:4), he gives thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), he is speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God (Acts 2:11; 10:46), when he speaks in tongues and interprets in the church, the church is edified (1 Cor 14:5).

 

[notuptome]

Baseless accusation. Again. You do this a lot, Roger.


By definition, a cessationist is a person who believes the "gifts" of the Holy Spirit have ceased. You believe they ceased when we got "the completed Bible". You are a cessationist.


No it does not. It says that tongues WILL cease when "that which is perfect is come". That has not happened yet.


Please show even one single verse that says tongues will return.


Yet again you twist what Paul said. You have done this many times. Paul did not say tongues is unfruitful. He said that when he speaks in tongues his understanding is unfruitful. Read it, Roger.

This is the same as what he said in 1 Cor 14:2

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

When a person speaks in tongues he does not understand what he is saying.


You are lacking knowledge on spiritual things, Roger.


When a person speaks in tongues, the utterance (words) are given by the Holy Spirit. When a person speaks in tongues, he edifies himself (1 Cor 14:4), he gives thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), he is speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God (Acts 2:11; 10:46), when he speaks in tongues and interprets in the church, the church is edified (1 Cor 14:5).

Did the apostles and disciples know what they were saying at Pentecost?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

Did the apostles and disciples know what they were saying at Pentecost?

While they were speaking in tongues? No.

When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying:

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

 

[DJ2]

That's because you are a cessationist. You believe the "gifts" have ceased.

There is no reason to believe the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit have ceased.


Why does he need to "do" anything with it? Paul is stating a fact. When a person speaks (or prays) in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. That's why when tongues are spoken out loud in the church, they must be interpreted.

There is no reason to believe the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

Really, there's NO REASON? Bless your heart.

 

[Noose]

While they were speaking in tongues? No.

When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying:

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

How did they not know what they were saying? they were preaching the gospel. They even knew it was a prophesy fulfilled and they even declared the specific prophesy.
What they did is very different from what you are doing. The babble today doesn't edify anyone; even the speaker can not claim to be edified because edification can only measured by what is known, not what is unknown.

 

[notuptome]

While they were speaking in tongues? No.

When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying:

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

This demonstrates the questionable merits of your argument.

Jewish thought taught throughout the history of Israel and recorded over and over again in the bible is that knowledge is essential. Knowledge of God to produce understanding and further wisdom of the Holy.

It appears that you are espousing a counterfeit theology. I hope I am in error but there is sufficient evidence to question if not draw a conclusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

From Paul's perspective Jesus had already come. No what Paul was looking for was the completion of the bible. If it had been Jesus Paul would have written when the Perfect comes again.

Part of the problem with this verse is translating the word perfect. In this verse it is better rendered completed. We have in part the OT but that which is complete OT & NT we will see as God intends for us to see.

I do not need to admit to error when I'm not in error. If you get good teaching from the start you do not need to be corrected later down the road.

There are posters here that were where you are and admitted they were in error and left Pentecostalism or charismatic churches.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

the fact that you have not or will not admit you have ever been corrected is error. Everyone has been corrected the fact you will not admit that is error . I was not asking to to admit error, I was asking if you have ever been corrected . You said no or will not say yes. I find that very unfortunate. If you can't be corrected then you have arrived, and even you position of the Bible as being that " which perfect has come" is not only the bible but you.


"Part of the problem with this verse is translating the word perfect. In this verse it is better rendered completed. We have in part the OT but that which is complete OT & NT we will see as God intends for us to see."

that is a pretty big presupposition. Completed huh?


Well lets look and see if that will provide a clearer authorial intent shall we.



1cor 13:10
But when that which is perfect (completed) is come, then that which is in part shall be



done away.



The remaining chapter has to be looked at . The context of 1cor 13:10 is incomplete without 1cor13:8-9 and 11-12



Just 1cor 13:10 does not provide enough context to come up with an interpretation on that verse alone





Which is completed is come then that which is in part (a part).



Part= a part due or assigned to one/ in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually



“Shall be done away with”



Meaning = entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively



You would have a case IF there were no more said . what is the completed and the part ? those have to be answered



Then as we move on because we do not know what is the Perfect or what is in part yet. Verse 10 cannot tell us contextually

We must read on.



:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Clearly this is about maturity. Of what ? Love.



:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.



If verse 10 is about the Bible the what is the face to face in verse 12 talking about?



Face to face = the face, the front of the human head also: the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication, presence, person:





I know: to recognize



I know in part= to become known

If we stop here the picture is come clear but still not fully. 1cor 13 end with



“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

But as we know 1cor 13 is a unity chapter so you have to continue to chapter 14 .

Which if the context of 1cor 13:10 is as you suggest you have a very big issue with the first verse in 14.

“Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.”

Jesus is the Perfect to come not the completion of the bible the word of God has and is always Perfect. When verse 12 says know and as we are Known is about relationship. With who ? Christ.

 

[CS1]

This demonstrates the questionable merits of your argument.

Jewish thought taught throughout the history of Israel and recorded over and over again in the bible is that knowledge is essential. Knowledge of God to produce understanding and further wisdom of the Holy.

It appears that you are espousing a counterfeit theology. I hope I am in error but there is sufficient evidence to question if not draw a conclusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

do we get knowledge from the Bible or is it gibven to us from reverance (fear of the lord) of God? I aso will remind you those same Jewish did not even know thier Messiah and the Old testamant Provided much ON HIM. the Prophet Isaiah for one. The relationship with God through the Holy Spirit brings understanding. this is the normitive in the Old and New testamants .

The Holy Spirit has been and will always be the one as Jesus said in John chapters 14 & 6 the one who leads and Guides as will the word of God. I have no counterfeit theology you have built an understanding on just one verse in 1cor 13:10.

 

[Noose]

do we get knowledge from the Bible or is it gibven to us from reverance (fear of the lord) of God? I aso will remind you those same Jewish did not even know thier Messiah and the Old testamant Provided much ON HIM. the Prophet Isaiah for one. The relationship with God through the Holy Spirit brings understanding. this is the normitive in the Old and New testamants .

The Holy Spirit has been and will always be the one as Jesus said in John chapters 14 & 6 the one who leads and Guides as will the word of God. I have no counterfeit theology you have built an understanding on just one verse in 1cor 13:10.

No you do not have a counterfeit gospel but a contradiction; If the Holy spirit gives us understanding, howbeit that He would give us unknown words (tongues) which is the opposite of understanding?

Are tongues for us (those who understand) or them (unbelievers- those without understanding)?

 

[CS1]

No you do not have a counterfeit gospel but a contradiction; If the Holy spirit gives us understanding, howbeit that He would give us unknown words (tongues) which is the opposite of understanding?

Are tongues for us (those who understand) or them (unbelievers- those without understanding)?

No you do not have a counterfeit gospel but a contradiction; If the Holy spirit gives us understanding, howbeit that He would give us unknown words (tongues) which is the opposite of understanding?

Are tongues for us (those who understand) or them (unbelievers- those without understanding)?

it is taught in 1cor 12, 13 and 14 the Gifts of the Holy Spirit all of them are for the body of Christ. it is also tongues which is a gift of the Holy Spirit. there is no contradiction in that. tongues and intrepetation provides the knowing of what is being said for the purpose of edifcation, comfort , and building up. The word of God and the elders judge if it is of God . Also just so you know many unlearned pentacostels error in thinking it is a "new word" . IT IS NOT! it is confimation of what is already known. It maybe knew to the hearer but the word confirms it. As it does with Prophecy. One who prophesies is not a prophet who is fortelling something NEW like the future , example I told the church congergation that God was going to open up NOrth Korea to the Gospel in July of Last year. I told them I believed the Lord showed me this. If you remember NK was talking about bombing Guam.

I did not see or know about the talks or what is happning now. Why Did God I beleive show me this?

For only one reason TO pray for North Korea and South Korea which I still think South Korea will play the biggest role in getting the gospel to NK. This understanding came to me as I waas praying in tongues and interpreting .

That being said I do not call my self a prophet or nor to I ask those to agree with what I said I'm asking all to pray for what was said.

NOw does the Gift in context to what I have presented bring glory to God or Not ?

 

[DDDo]

No it does not. It says that tongues WILL cease when "that which is perfect is come". That has not happened yet.

The "perfect" has come, and tongues has ceased.

When Paul speaks of "perfect", he is not engaged in prophecy, but in basic reasoning. When tongues is no longer needed, then tongues will cease. When we have all we need, the makeshift solution is no longer needed. And, tongues is no longer needed. Tongues isn't needed as a sign to demonstrate the authority of the Gospel to Old Testament Jews, not since 70 AD. Tongues isn't needed to provide us with godly guidance in lieu of the New Testament, because the New Testament has been completed. Tongues isn't needed to spread the Gospel because we have Christians who naturally speak every language in the world.

Spewing gibberish and calling it an angelic tongue is a childish game. And, twisting scripture to try to legitimize that game is irresponsible (and, dishonest when televangelists do it).