Speaking in tongues

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
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#81
the Lord doesnt change
That does not change the fact that is was not possible to speak in tongues before the day of Pentecost.

they spoke in different languages
As the Spirit gave them utterance. They were operating the manifestation of speaking in tongues, as further explained in 1 Cor 14.

no mention of an angel language
1 Cor 13:1.

What about the entire Corinthian church?
what scripture?
1 Cor 14. But I understand that if you doubt Paul, you son't accept that answer.

He is a great teacher however i do not view him as a stand alone, Jesus is a stand alone. if Paul says something Jesus did not teach i am skeptical.
Gal 1:
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

never said they were false i said exactly what Peter said (who was an Apostle of Jesus) that his teachings can be misunderstood.
They can also be understood.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,265
426
83
#82
That does not change the fact that is was not possible to speak in tongues before the day of Pentecost.


As the Spirit gave them utterance. They were operating the manifestation of speaking in tongues, as further explained in 1 Cor 14.


1 Cor 13:1.


1 Cor 14. But I understand that if you doubt Paul, you son't accept that answer.


Gal 1:
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


They can also be understood.
so the Lord does change even though He and His son say He doesnt?

again, no mention of an angel language

and that has noting to do with Cornelius and his family

if Pauls teachig does not test against scripture then IMO its a misunderstanding of Paul.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
83
#83
so the Lord does change even though He and His son say He doesnt?
The Lord does not change.

That does not change the fact that is was not possible to speak in tongues before the day of Pentecost.

again, no mention of an angel language
1 Cor 13:
1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

and that has noting to do with Cornelius and his family
You stated "better yet, outside of Paul there is not one example in the bible of this. " Cornelius and his family spoke in tongues.

if Pauls teachig does not test against scripture then IMO its a misunderstanding of Paul.
Paul's teachings ARE scripture.

If you do not accept that, there's no reason to continue.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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#84
I watched the video and read their posts to see if you're telling the truth.
You're not.
Put up or shut up.

Please give even one example where you believe the video supports SaintMichael's assertions that "they could speak the languages of the people they'd find across the globe" and "If it is a language that is not understood, it is fake."
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,402
1,272
113
#85
I watched the video and read their posts to see if you're telling the truth.
You're not.
Tongues is not speaking in a language not know to the speaker God's interpretation as to what that other hears as the outcome is not known to the speaker . He does not speak in other languages but is heard in their own language . No prophecy of scripture is of a private interpretation not by the will of the speaker . But as God's works in them to both to will and do His pleasure they receive God's interpretation . The idea of trusting in the private interpretation of other men is another gospel

Most cults are revealed in that way.... Trust men don't trust the inspired word God of studying it in order seek His approval, but trust what man says as his interpretation. Drink the cool aid.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
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#86
Tongues is not speaking in a language not know to the speaker God's interpretation as to what that other hears as the outcome is not known to the speaker .
When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying.

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

He does not speak in other languages but is heard in their own language .
See above. Also, that's why Paul instructs that when a person speaks in tongues out loud, he must interpret, so the church can be edified. If he does not interpret, nobody will understand what was said.

No prophecy of scripture is of a private interpretation not by the will of the speaker . But as God's works in them to both to will and do His pleasure they receive God's interpretation . The idea of trusting in the private interpretation of other men is another gospel
The manifestation of interpretation of tongues is not "private interpretation of scripture".

Most cults are revealed in that way.... Trust men don't trust the inspired word God of studying it in order seek His approval, but trust what man says as his interpretation. Drink the cool aid.
The cool aid I trust is the Bible.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,954
6,973
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#87
Tongues is not speaking in a language not know to the speaker God's interpretation as to what that other hears as the outcome is not known to the speaker . He does not speak in other languages but is heard in their own language . No prophecy of scripture is of a private interpretation not by the will of the speaker . But as God's works in them to both to will and do His pleasure they receive God's interpretation . The idea of trusting in the private interpretation of other men is another gospel

Most cults are revealed in that way.... Trust men don't trust the inspired word God of studying it in order seek His approval, but trust what man says as his interpretation. Drink the cool aid.
The bolded sentence has absolutely nothing to do with speaking in tongues. It has everything to do with prophecies that are recorded in Scripture, their origin and their fulfillment, which is not of private interpretation.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,648
3,458
113
#88
I am convinced they were.


That was 50 days earlier.


How could an upper room hold the multitude of people that heard the apostles speak in tongues?


Sorry, not convinced.

Yes, and everyone HEARD in their OWN dialektos, which is a LANGUAGE that is SO SPECIFIC, that EVEN THE ACCENT WAS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. That is what is NOT being done today. It is SO DIFFERENT that NONE of the JEWS could hear the might works of GOD, in their OWN Dialektos. There were JEWS in Jerusalem from just about EVERY known language of the KNOWN world at that time. They traditionally HAD TO BRING THE TEMPLE TAXES FROM THEIR VILLAGE, and the came for Passover, and 50 days later, most would have stayed until Pentecost. Peter has the longest message in tongues. NOW PETER COULD NOT HAVE REPEATED HIS MESSAGE IN EVER KNOWN LANGUAGE, of the Known world in a single day. THINK ABOUT IT. I SERIOUSLY THINK, the MIRACLE of TONGUES was both the mouths of the APOSTLES, AND IN THE HEARING OF THE HEARERS.


Acts 2:4-41 (HCSB)
4 Then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit gave them ability for speech.
5 There were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 When this sound occurred, a crowd came together and was confused because
each one heard them speaking in his own language. {dialektos - Earthly Language so specific that the ACCENT was totally correct, and EVERY ONE WHO HEARD, were Unbelieving JEWS. NONE today speak in Earthly Language with Unbelieving JEWS Hearing every word in their own native DIALEKTOS. Looks like it is a COUNTERFEIT to me.}

7 And they were astounded and amazed, saying, “Look, aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 How is it that each of us can hear in our own native language?
9 Parthians, Medes, Elamites; those who live in Mesopotamia, in Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking the magnificent acts of God in our own languages.”
12 They were all astounded and perplexed, saying to one another, “What could this be?”
{NONE of it is remotely the same as the APOSTLES DID IT.}

13 But some sneered and said, “They’re full of new wine!”
14 But Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them: “Men of Judah and all you residents of Jerusalem, let me explain this to you and pay attention to my words.
15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it’s only nine in the morning.
16 On the contrary, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 And it will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all humanity; then your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
18 I will even pour out My Spirit on My male and female slaves in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will display wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below: blood and fire and a cloud of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and remarkable Day of the Lord comes.
21 Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: This Jesus the Nazarene was a man pointed out to you by God with miracles, wonders, and signs that God did among you through Him, just as you yourselves know.
23 Though He was delivered up according to God’s determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail Him to a cross and kill Him.
24 God raised Him up, ending the pains of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.
25 For David says of Him: I saw the Lord ever before me; because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover, my flesh will rest in hope,
27 because You will not leave me in Hades or allow Your Holy One to see decay.
28 You have revealed the paths of life to me; You will fill me with gladness in Your presence.
29 “Brothers, I can confidently speak to you about the patriarch David: He is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn an oath to him to seat one of his descendants on his throne.
31 Seeing this in advance, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Messiah: He was not left in Hades, and His flesh did not experience decay.
32 “God has resurrected this Jesus. We are all witnesses of this.
33 Therefore, since He has been exalted to the right hand of God and has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit, He has poured out what you both see and hear.
34 For it was not David who ascended into the heavens, but he himself says: The Lord declared to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand
35 until I make Your enemies Your footstool.’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah!”
37 When they heard this, they came under deep conviction and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: “Brothers, what must we do?”
38 “Repent,” Peter said to them, “and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
40 And with many other words he testified and strongly urged them, saying,
“Be saved from this corrupt generation!”

41 So those who accepted his message were baptized, and that day about 3,000 people were added to them.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
52
48
#89
What do you think about the instances after Acts 2 in which believers spoke in tongues? These aren't identified as specific languages.
Hello DIno246.... Again it was during a time period where the apostles and teachers, preachers had to prove who they was. The Holy Spirit had just come down to all (over 120 of them) giving them the gifts as stated in other posts. Rem. Acts was a transition time between the Baptism by Water for salvation vs. baptism by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost for salvation.

acts 2:6.."Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. "

All during this period, the Jewish people required to be shown before they believed.

There are denominations who among other things, require tongues in order to receive the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit is within each TRUE Christian and can at any moment give the person a gift of tongues. But, it will not be gibberish but rather a language that someone can understand. Look to the other gifts these denominations claim they have and see if they are true.


Blade

 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
107
28
#90
The video has some interesting points however, pray without ceasing can very well mean your very life is one of prayer. This is an application. In addition, the word gibberish is not in the context of tongues or found in the bible.

The biblical context for tongues is



  • The organ in the mouth
  • Language of a person, culture , or nation
  • the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations
This is the natural biblical understand of “Tongues” in the Old and New Testament



the term “ Speaking in tongues “. Or in Languages contextually is in direct response to what the Holy Spirit is doing and man who the Holy Spirit enabled to speak.
Well, to be perfectly clear, I never stated nor implied gibberish was a Biblical term.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
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#91
Yes, and everyone HEARD in their OWN dialektos, which is a LANGUAGE that is SO SPECIFIC, that EVEN THE ACCENT WAS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
Yes. Speaking in tongues is speaking actual languages.

That is what is NOT being done today.
Yes, it is.

It is SO DIFFERENT that NONE of the JEWS could hear the might works of GOD, in their OWN Dialektos. There were JEWS in Jerusalem from just about EVERY known language of the KNOWN world at that time. They traditionally HAD TO BRING THE TEMPLE TAXES FROM THEIR VILLAGE, and the came for Passover, and 50 days later, most would have stayed until Pentecost. Peter has the longest message in tongues.
Peter's sermon starting in v14 was not spoken in tongues. It was probably spoken in Hebrew, something all the Jews would have understood.

NOW PETER COULD NOT HAVE REPEATED HIS MESSAGE IN EVER KNOWN LANGUAGE, of the Known world in a single day. THINK ABOUT IT. I SERIOUSLY THINK, the MIRACLE of TONGUES was both the mouths of the APOSTLES, AND IN THE HEARING OF THE HEARERS.
Part of the miracle of Pentecost was that the languages the apostles were given to speak were the native languages of the other people present. That almost never happens, which is why Paul says in 1 Cor 14 that when tongues is spoken out loud in public, they must be interpreted.

I do not expect to convince you, VCO. You and I have gone round and round on this before on another forum. You did some research many years ago, composed your paper, and are thoroughly convinced tongues have ceased, and are done with it, refusing to even consider that you might be wrong.
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
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#92
I am convinced they were.


That was 50 days earlier.


How could an upper room hold the multitude of people that heard the apostles speak in tongues?


Sorry, not convinced.
Then you are convinced by the Bible to believe that way. Because as we know the Bible tells us we are not to lean on our own understanding.

Show the scripture that proves your point. That those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues were in the temple.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
83
#93
Hello DIno246.... Again it was during a time period where the apostles and teachers, preachers had to prove who they was. The Holy Spirit had just come down to all (over 120 of them) giving them the gifts as stated in other posts. Rem. Acts was a transition time between the Baptism by Water for salvation vs. baptism by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost for salvation.

acts 2:6.."Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. "

All during this period, the Jewish people required to be shown before they believed.

There are denominations who among other things, require tongues in order to receive the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit is within each TRUE Christian and can at any moment give the person a gift of tongues. But, it will not be gibberish but rather a language that someone can understand. Look to the other gifts these denominations claim they have and see if they are true.

Blade
There are several issues with what you say, but specifically, the statement I highlighted in red is not true.

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

That's why when tongues are spoken in public, they must be interpreted.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
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#94
Then you are convinced by the Bible to believe that way. Because as we know the Bible tells us we are not to lean on our own understanding.

Show the scripture that proves your point. That those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues were in the temple.
Luke 24:
49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50) And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52) And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53) And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

There is no upper room where thousands of people could be gathered. (3000 were added to the church that day..).

Acts 2:
2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

The temple is frequently referred to as the "house". Matt. 21:13; Luke 11:51; John 2:16; Acts 7:47, 49

On the day of Pentecost, women were with them. The upper room is where the disciples "abode". It's where they stayed. Ate, slept, etc. No women would have been allowed in the place where the disciples abode.

There are more reasons, but it's time for bed.. :)
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
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#95
So what.
BTW, before you attempt to question scripture you should study it. Even libraries have bibles. You don't know what Pentecost is or you'd never respond as you did there.

Pentecost is celebrated today. Look it up. Here's a clue. Feast day of the Ascension.
Amen!

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
460
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#96
Amen!

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Do you understand that Sugar_Orchids is convinced that tongues have ceased, and any tongues being spoken today are all fake?

https://christianchat.com/threads/speaking-in-tongues.177501/post-3626833
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
107
28
#97
Luke 24:
49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50) And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52) And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53) And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

There is no upper room where thousands of people could be gathered. (3000 were added to the church that day..).

Acts 2:
2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

The temple is frequently referred to as the "house". Matt. 21:13; Luke 11:51; John 2:16; Acts 7:47, 49

On the day of Pentecost, women were with them. The upper room is where the disciples "abode". It's where they stayed. Ate, slept, etc. No women would have been allowed in the place where the disciples abode.

There are more reasons, but it's time for bed.. :)
Acts 1 tells us women were in the upper room. Jesus followers were not segregated by the those constraints the ancient Jews otherwise lived under.
We know a woman, Mary, having discovered Jesus' tomb empty ran to the upper room and reported that to the Disciples. And they followed her so as to see for themselves. This was certainly not a room in the upper part of the temple. Because in that room well prior to those named events, Jesus gave communion to his followers there.
Had they been in the upper room of the temple they would have had to be granted access by the very authorities overseeing the temple. And who sought Jesus so as to identify this man the Pharisee and Sadducee charged with blasphemy.
If these great men gathered in the temples upper room, all those authorities would have had to do instead would be to walk up into the upper room.

Acts 2 is an account of receiving the Holy Spirit's gift of Tongues. About 3,000 were anointed that day of Pentecost. They were gathered together in one place. Breaking bread and praying together. That was not the temple. Because for this to be the case that would be 3,000 people gathered together as followers of the man the temple's authorities put to death through Rome's punishment of the cross.
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
107
28
#98
Do you understand that Sugar_Orchids is convinced that tongues have ceased, and any tongues being spoken today are all fake?

https://christianchat.com/threads/speaking-in-tongues.177501/post-3626833
Great link.
It answers your question. No, that's not what Sugar Orchids said.
"If you hear someone blabbering in weird sounds that doesn't sound at all like a language, that is nonsense. Not tongues. Certain scriptures even say tongues have ceased. But no one knows whom God will touch and lead to do his will. What he will not do is call someone to blabber nonsense so as to make it seem like the Holy Spirit speaks like that. "
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,648
3,458
113
#99
Yes. Speaking in tongues is speaking actual languages.


Yes, it is.


Peter's sermon starting in v14 was not spoken in tongues. It was probably spoken in Hebrew, something all the Jews would have understood.


Part of the miracle of Pentecost was that the languages the apostles were given to speak were the native languages of the other people present. That almost never happens, which is why Paul says in 1 Cor 14 that when tongues is spoken out loud in public, they must be interpreted.

I do not expect to convince you, VCO. You and I have gone round and round on this before on another forum. You did some research many years ago, composed your paper, and are thoroughly convinced tongues have ceased, and are done with it, refusing to even consider that you might be wrong.

Yes, that is what I am saying, BUT, it is NOT ME that convinces me that the Study I did years ago, because I am convinced the Holy Spirit caused me to Write the Study. So we are still at a Stalemate. In every example in the Bible you will find Unbelieving Jews Heard the mighty works of GOD, in their OWN dialektos. Including at Cornelius' House. The other disciples that went with Peter, were unbelieving that GOD could save the Gentiles in the SAME manor and degree as JEWS. AND THEN they all BELIEVED. It never said their would not be OTHERS, that could not understand what they were saying, DID IT, only that there would be unbelieving Jews that Heard in their Dialektos. Show me the UNBELIEVING JEWS, that Believed AFTER they had UNDERSTOOD EVERY WORD in their OWN Dialektos, if you want me to believe it is NOT A COMPLETE COUNTERFEIT. YES there was a sizable population of Unbelieving Jews in Corinth, and IN FACT there Synagogue we RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO House where Corinthian Church met, long before they built a Chapel or Church. I did a study once that showed where the House next Door to the Synagogue, that Paul Stayed at when he first went to Corinth. But I could not find it. May it was on a different site.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,265
426
83
The Lord does not change.

That does not change the fact that is was not possible to speak in tongues before the day of Pentecost.
exactly, according to the tongue doctrine the Lord changed. and i dont agree

1 Cor 13:
1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
your taking this one scripture and inserting it anywhere to make language into angel language.


You stated "better yet, outside of Paul there is not one example in the bible of this. " Cornelius and his family spoke in tongues.
i never said they didnt, but nowhere in that passage is angel language mentioned, you have to move your 1 cor 13 passage there to make it work.


Paul's teachings ARE scripture.

If you do not accept that, there's no reason to continue.
i never said they werent. i said you cant take Pauls teachings and ignore the rest of the bible. the Berens tested Pauls teachings against scripture, why did they do that.

i have a question, lets go back to this:
is was not possible to speak in tongues before the day of Pentecost.
so where exactly is the scripture that says there will be a brand new never been seen before angel/prayer language starting on the day of Pentecost?