Spiritual gifts:Unconfusing them part 3 - analogy

[Niki7]

So DJT is a troll? I think I said that some time ago in this thread or another one.

Oh I don't know if he is a troll or not. Psychologically speaking, there are people who believe they are always right regardless of the number of people who try to talk about their supposed expertise with them and try to show them that what they say does not line up with the facts, in this case, the Bible. Instead, anyone with a different viewpoint is automatically shut down, told they are wrong and treated like they just crawled out of the jungle after being lost in there for 20 years.

This subject is particularly annoying because of the people who come here with an agenda with regards to the spiritual gifts and think they know all there is to know about this topic. That, fits the definition of the Dunning-Kruger Effect as described in my other post.

That being said, this same person is on at least one other site posting exactly what he has posted here with regards to his opinions on the gifts. So that indicates an agenda I would think. I am not a member in that other forum, but I googled his DJY_47 as he uses here and found the same at another site.

sad IMO

Still though, he does state he does not know when he was saved....so....

 

[DJT_47]

all must be seen in context to what Jesus said in John chapters 14 and 15 and What Jesus said in Acts 1:8

With you and In you. and come upon you 2:38 is speaking only of Salvation and obedience in water baptism. The gift of the Holy Spirit is HE becomes a resident IN the believer.

I'm not sure what your point is. Acts 2:38 means upon baptism into Christ your sins are forgiven and you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the indwelling of the Spirit and not gifts of the Spirit meaning those listed in 1 cor 12:8-10. It seems like you're saying the same. ??

 

[DJT_47]

Oh I don't know if he is a troll or not. Psychologically speaking, there are people who believe they are always right regardless of the number of people who try to talk about their supposed expertise with them and try to show them that what they say does not line up with the facts, in this case, the Bible. Instead, anyone with a different viewpoint is automatically shut down, told they are wrong and treated like they just crawled out of the jungle after being lost in there for 20 years.

This subject is particularly annoying because of the people who come here with an agenda with regards to the spiritual gifts and think they know all there is to know about this topic. That, fits the definition of the Dunning-Kruger Effect as described in my other post.

That being said, this same person is on at least one other site posting exactly what he has posted here with regards to his opinions on the gifts. So that indicates an agenda I would think. I am not a member in that other forum, but I googled his DJY_47 as he uses here and found the same at another site.

sad IMO

Still though, he does state he does not know when he was saved....so....

If I'm a troll for speaking the truth then you're a moron

 

[Niki7]

If I'm a troll for speaking the truth then you're a moron

In your haste and obvious anger, you confused me with the actual person who called you a troll.

You do seem as grouchy as one though.

You have a lovely evening insulting people then and don't forget to do the same in the other forum. I suspect that forum would ban you though. They are somewhat more liberal here.

 

[DJT_47]

In your haste and obvious anger, you confused me with the actual person who called you a troll.

You do seem as grouchy as one though.

You have a lovely evening insulting people then and don't forget to do the same in the other forum. I suspect that forum would ban you though. They are somewhat more liberal here.

Sorry, I do get perturbed at times dealing with people who seemingly aren't interested in seeking truth nor studying, and resort to calling someone a troll because they are dumb and like being that way. And fyi, I do for sure have an agenda, and that is truth, primarily go save souls, but also on secondary issues such as spiritual gifts, etc. Once again, I do apologize to you.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Apparently, "grouchy" is the latest thought-stopping device. You can be as condescending and arrogant as you want, just don't be grouchy and you're okay.

 

[CS1]

I'm not sure what your point is. Acts 2:38 means upon baptism into Christ your sins are forgiven and you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the indwelling of the Spirit and not gifts of the Spirit meaning those listed in 1 cor 12:8-10. It seems like you're saying the same. ??

no it does not.

 

[DJT_47]

no it does not.

Sorry your reading and understanding abilities are limited, but that's exactly what it says

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Niki7]

Sorry, I do get perturbed at times dealing with people who seemingly aren't interested in seeking truth nor studying, and resort to calling someone a troll because they are dumb and like being that way. And fyi, I do for sure have an agenda, and that is truth, primarily go save souls, but also on secondary issues such as spiritual gifts, etc. Once again, I do apologize to you.

Thank you for the apology. You should understand that you are just one of many people who go to forums with the idea they are going to set everyone straight.

It's not going to happen.

It's too bad for you that you think you are somehow the Knights Templar of truth here again, because you are just one of many.

I saw how people were responding to you in the other forum. Most do not agree with you there either but you also had a respectful tone there that you might have left there because you sure don't have it here.

People are not dumb because they do not have the same lack of experience that you think is the truth. Your lack is not the truth.

I would not waste one minute trying to dissuade you from your 'agenda' and I would hope no one else does either.

 

[DJT_47]

Thank you for the apology. You should understand that you are just one of many people who go to forums with the idea they are going to set everyone straight.

It's not going to happen.

It's too bad for you that you think you are somehow the Knights Templar of truth here again, because you are just one of many.

I saw how people were responding to you in the other forum. Most do not agree with you there either but you also had a respectful tone there that you might have left there because you sure don't have it here.

People are not dumb because they do not have the same lack of experience that you think is the truth. Your lack is not the truth.

I would not waste one minute trying to dissuade you from your 'agenda' and I would hope no one else does either.

There is one truth not multiple truths. And if you think numbers are justification of a position, you are very naive.

Matthew 7:14

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[CS1]

Sorry your reading and understanding abilities are limited, but that's exactly what it says

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”


Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves a person. That is what Jesus said, that is what Peter said, and that is what Paul said. After that, you obey in following the Lord into Baptism.
We like to circle our wagon around what we see and one point yet do not read on because we built a doctrine on one verse in Acts 2:38. But that is not what was all said, was it? Read on as you like to say

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

They had to repent and then were baptized. They were saved then they were baptized.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

The miraculous gifts have ceased long ago as the scriptures indicate they would. 1 Cor 13:8

Chuckle!!! Here we go with the old: "that perfect" foolishness again. It's almost a "Baptist Mantra".

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

First of all, the gifts are NOT active today,

Oh GOODY!!!! We've got "just another" pentehostile on board. Same 'ol same 'ol.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is easy for one to say that healing and miracles don't happen when you base your experience on those who are on Youtube or TV.

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case, and that people are being healed daily or weekly in absolutely every church through healers. I do not believe you will have any evidence whatsoever (and let's also forget the "faith healers" and their shenanigans since they operate outside local churches).

Let's also keep the matter of divine miracles through the prayer of faith as a SEPARATE CATEGORY since that is God's direct intervention without any intermediary. This would not be the same as your claim.

 

[DJT_47]

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”


Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves a person. That is what Jesus said, that is what Peter said, and that is what Paul said. After that, you obey in following the Lord into Baptism.
We like to circle our wagon around what we see and one point yet do not read on because we built a doctrine on one verse in Acts 2:38. But that is not what was all said, was it? Read on as you like to say

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

They had to repent and then were baptized. They were saved then they were baptized.

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case, and that people are being healed daily or weekly in absolutely every church through healers. I do not believe you will have any evidence whatsoever (and let's also forget the "faith healers" and their shenanigans since they operate outside local churches).

Let's also keep the matter of divine miracles through the prayer of faith as a SEPARATE CATEGORY since that is God's direct intervention without any intermediary. This would not be the same as your claim.

Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Very plain and understandable. "And" is a conjunction with h inextricably ties the two together. BOTH then are required. And for what reason? To have your sins forgiven. It says notning about belief but doesn't need to; it's implied .Belief and repentance won't save but adding the other inextricably element does. No different than Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. Another conjunction tieing the two things together. One is not enough. Both are required.

 

[CS1]

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case, and that people are being healed daily or weekly in absolutely every church through healers. I do not believe you will have any evidence whatsoever (and let's also forget the "faith healers" and their shenanigans since they operate outside local churches).

Let's also keep the matter of divine miracles through the prayer of faith as a SEPARATE CATEGORY since that is God's direct intervention without any intermediary. This would not be the same as your claim.

No, it would not. Jesus himself could not do miracles because of the unbelief in his hometown. MATTHEW 13:58

Jesus SAID THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE EVEN IF ONE came back from the dead. The Pharisees tried to discredit the work of Jesus after seeing him do it and said he did it by the power of the devil. Your reasoning and logic don't take into account what happened and the reaction of people when Jesus and the Apostles healed people and cast out Devils.

Of course, it's not about denominations, and healings are happening. We have a lady in our church who has kidneys and liver shutdown. God healed her the fluid they were having to drain weekly, and her doctors told her to make her arrangements if she was going to die.

But God healed her, and her pain all stopped, and she is in full recovery. Her doctors are shocked. She has not had to have her stomach drained in weeks. Man places false standards of how many miracles have to happen and what one thinks the response should be. Yet the word of God is full of hits of one-time wonders. And record the response of those who saw it and were not too happy with it as you think they should be.

Peter healed a lame man = Peter was arrested and forbidden to teach in the name of Jesus

Peter again heals, casting out devils. ACTS CHAPTER 5= imprisoned angel came and released him.


Stephan did mighty miracles, signs & wonders= was killed
Paul healed cast-out devils = was beaten, thrown into prison

The world is hating Christians, and signs and wonders are happening, yet the people are responding in many ways. I don't provide

I DON'T need to provide you with hard evidence. You doubt it. That is you. I am not going to provide for you what happens around the world that God has done. I will ask you why it is not happening in your own life? Do you win souls? Do you feed the hungry? Do you visit Hospitals to pray for the sick? Do you suffer persecution for the gospel? What is your life produce for the kingdom of God?

Or are you just about Biblical knowledge and no action? MATTHEW 12: 39-40 IS FOR YOU IN THE MESSAGE BIBLE :

Jesus SPEAKING :



39-40 Jesus said, “You’re looking for proof, but you’re looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you’re going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish’s belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.

 

[CS1]

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case, and that people are being healed daily or weekly in absolutely every church through healers. I do not believe you will have any evidence whatsoever (and let's also forget the "faith healers" and their shenanigans since they operate outside local churches).

Let's also keep the matter of divine miracles through the prayer of faith as a SEPARATE CATEGORY since that is God's direct intervention without any intermediary. This would not be the same as your claim.

No, it would not. Jesus himself could not do miracles because of the unbelief in his hometown. MATTHEW 13:58

Jesus SAID THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE EVEN IF ONE came back from the dead. The Pharisees tried to discredit the work of Jesus after seeing him do it and said he did it by the power of the devil. Your reasoning and logic don't take into account what happened and the reaction of people when Jesus and the Apostles healed people and cast out Devils.

Of course, it's not about denominations, and healings are happening. We have a lady in our church who has kidneys and liver shutdown. God healed her the fluid they were having to drain weekly, and her doctors told her to make her arrangements if she was going to die.

But God healed her, and her pain all stopped, and she is in full recovery. Her doctors are shocked. She has not had to have her stomach drained in weeks. Man places false standards of how many miracles have to happen and what one thinks the response should be. Yet the word of God is full of hits of one-time wonders. And record the response of those who saw it and were not too happy with it as you think they should be.

Peter healed a lame man = Peter was arrested and forbidden to teach in the name of Jesus

Peter again heals, casting out devils. ACTS CHAPTER 5= imprisoned angel came and released him.


Stephan did mighty miracles, signs & wonders= was killed
Paul healed cast-out devils = was beaten, thrown into prison

The world is hating Christians, and signs and wonders are happening, yet the people are responding in many ways. I don't provide

I DON'T need to provide you with hard evidence. You doubt it. That is you. I am not going to provide for you what happens around the world that God has done. I will ask you why it is not happening in your own life? Do you win souls? Do you feed the hungry? Do you visit Hospitals to pray for the sick? Do you suffer persecution for the gospel? What is your life produce for the kingdom of God?

Or are you just about Biblical knowledge and no action? MATTHEW 12: 39-40 IS FOR YOU IN THE MESSAGE BIBLE :

Jesus SPEAKING :



39-40 Jesus said, “You’re looking for proof, but you’re looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you’re going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish’s belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.

 

[CS1]

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case, and that people are being healed daily or weekly in absolutely every church through healers. I do not believe you will have any evidence whatsoever (and let's also forget the "faith healers" and their shenanigans since they operate outside local churches).

Let's also keep the matter of divine miracles through the prayer of faith as a SEPARATE CATEGORY since that is God's direct intervention without any intermediary. This would not be the same as your claim.

No, it would not. Jesus himself could not do miracles because of the unbelief in his hometown. MATTHEW 13:58

Jesus SAID THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE EVEN IF ONE came back from the dead. The Pharisees tried to discredit the work of Jesus after seeing him do it and said he did it by the power of the devil. Your reasoning and logic don't take into account what happened and the reaction of people when Jesus and the Apostles healed people and cast out Devils.

Of course, it's not about denominations, and healings are happening. We have a lady in our church who has kidneys and liver shutdown. God healed her the fluid they were having to drain weekly, and her doctors told her to make her arrangements if she was going to die.

But God healed her, and her pain all stopped, and she is in full recovery. Her doctors are shocked. She has not had to have her stomach drained in weeks. Man places false standards of how many miracles have to happen and what one thinks the response should be. Yet the word of God is full of hits of one-time wonders. And record the response of those who saw it and were not too happy with it as you think they should be.

Peter healed a lame man = Peter was arrested and forbidden to teach in the name of Jesus

Peter again heals, casting out devils. ACTS CHAPTER 5= imprisoned angel came and released him.


Stephan did mighty miracles, signs & wonders= was killed
Paul healed cast-out devils = was beaten, thrown into prison

The world is hating Christians, and signs and wonders are happening, yet the people are responding in many ways.

I DON'T need to provide you with hard evidence. You doubt it. That is you. I am not going to provide for you what happens around the world that God has done. I will ask you why it is not happening in your own life? Do you win souls? Do you feed the hungry? Do you visit Hospitals to pray for the sick? Do you suffer persecution for the gospel? What is your life producing for the kingdom of God?

Or are you just about Biblical knowledge and no action? MATTHEW 12: 39-40 IS FOR YOU IN THE MESSAGE BIBLE :

Jesus SPEAKING :



39-40 Jesus said, “You’re looking for proof, but you’re looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you’re going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish’s belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.

 

[CS1]

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case, and that people are being healed daily or weekly in absolutely every church through healers. I do not believe you will have any evidence whatsoever (and let's also forget the "faith healers" and their shenanigans since they operate outside local churches).

Let's also keep the matter of divine miracles through the prayer of faith as a SEPARATE CATEGORY since that is God's direct intervention without any intermediary. This would not be the same as your claim.

No, it would not. Jesus himself could not do miracles because of the unbelief in his hometown. MATTHEW 13:58

Jesus SAID THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE EVEN IF ONE came back from the dead. The Pharisees tried to discredit the work of Jesus after seeing him do it and said he did it by the power of the devil. Your reasoning and logic don't take into account what happened and the reaction of people when Jesus and the Apostles healed people and cast out Devils.

Of course, it's not about denominations, and healings are happening. We have a lady in our church who has kidneys and liver shutdown. God healed her the fluid they were having to drain weekly, and her doctors told her to make her arrangements if she was going to die.

But God healed her, and her pain all stopped, and she is in full recovery. Her doctors are shocked. She has not had to have her stomach drained in weeks. Man places false standards of how many miracles have to happen and what one thinks the response should be. Yet the word of God is full of hits of one-time wonders. And record the response of those who saw it and were not too happy with it as you think they should be.

Peter healed a lame man = Peter was arrested and forbidden to teach in the name of Jesus

Peter again heals, casting out devils. ACTS CHAPTER 5= imprisoned angel came and released him.


Stephan did mighty miracles, signs & wonders= was killed
Paul healed cast-out devils = was beaten, thrown into prison

The world is hating Christians, and signs and wonders are happening, yet the people are responding in many ways.

I DON'T need to provide you with hard evidence. You doubt it. That is you. I am not going to provide for you what happens around the world that God has done. I will ask you why it is not happening in your own life? Do you win souls? Do you feed the hungry? Do you visit Hospitals to pray for the sick? Do you suffer persecution for the gospel? What is your life producing for the kingdom of God?

Or are you just about Biblical knowledge and no action? MATTHEW 12: 39-40 IS FOR YOU IN THE MESSAGE BIBLE :

Jesus SPEAKING :



39-40 Jesus said, “You’re looking for proof, but you’re looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you’re going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish’s belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No, it would not. Jesus himself could not do miracles because of the unbelief in his hometown.

That's a nice dodge. The burden of proof is on you. You claim the gift of miraculous healings is present today. So either put up or shut up.

BTW regardless of what happened in the hometown of Christ, the fact remains that He performed miracles DAILY even when people did not ask for healing or believe that He could heal.