Stars, Dust & Sand

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 13, 2022
80
17
8
Indiana
#41
Well then RR, please explain Revelation 1:8. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." This cannot be God the Father because the Father is not the one coming or was dead. Revelation 1:17, "And when I saw Him/Jesus Christ I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and Hades." Now what RR?
Okay, let's begin. Verse 8 states

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
This verse interrupts John’s narrative and the opening theme of the Book of Revelation. It's an interjection of thought by Jesus himself to personally confide some important truth; namely, that he is the “Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending” and that he is declared to be such by no less an authority than the great Jehovah, the Almighty God, the One “which is, and which was, and which is to come.”

As you may know, Alpha and Omega are the first and the last letters of the Greek alphabet. The context signifies some unique office singularly occupied by Jesus, one that he was “the first” and one that he is to be “the last” to possess. Two such roles already exist in which Jesus meets these requirements.

First, Jesus is “the beginning and the ending” in that he is God’s “only [directly] begotten Son,” “the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature” (John 3:16; Col. 1:15). “The beginning” in the text does not refer to the beginning of the existence of Jehovah, the God, the Father, because He is “from everlasting to everlasting,” and never had a beginning (Psa. 90:2; 106:48). However, Jehovah’s work of creation did have a beginning. Jesus, “the faithful and true witness . . . the creation of God,” did not create himself but was begotten of his Father (Rev. 3:14). Since Jesus was the first (beginning) and only (ending or last) direct creation of God, all other
sentient beings—human and angelic—were subsequently created “of” the Father but “by” or “through” the Son (John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Rev. 1:17; 2:8). “Let us make man in our image” (Gen. 1:26). “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible” (Col. 1:16).

Second, the title “Alpha and Omega” refers to a position occupied solely by Jesus among those who are called by God to joint-heirship upon the divine plane of glory, for God sent Jesus to be the everlasting head over the Church, his body. “He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Col. 1:18,19). Accordingly, Jesus issued a caution to his followers: “Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your [spiritual] father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ” (Matt. 23:8–10). Indeed millions of professed followers of the Master unwittingly disobey this injunction whenever they address local parish priests as “Father.”

In the introductory remarks of Revelation, Jesus calls himself the Alpha and the Omega in order to emphasize that the true Church of God is neither man-made nor man-ruled, that its members are enrolled not on earth but in heaven (Heb. 12:23). The Church has but one head: Jesus. His word is its law. The Church is built upon the testimony of the apostles and the prophets, Jesus Christ himself being its chief cornerstone. Not only are Christians to be cut off from institutional heads, synods, and authorities; but they are to cease to have heads and wills of their own, and to accept instead the headship, the will, of the Lord Jesus. Although Jesus is meek and lowly of heart, he does not intend to shirk the honor and responsibility of office conferred upon him by the Father; rather, he intends to take complete charge in the fulfillment of his role as the spiritual guide and caretaker of the Church. The Lord’s people are to look
to Jesus alone for direction in the present life because “thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” (Heb. 1:9).
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,094
529
113
#42
Come on RR, are these the best "excuses" you got in denying that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God? At Revelation 1:7 it is Jesus Christ who is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. It can't be God the Father because the Father cannot be seen even according to Jesus Himself. John 5:37, John 6:46. Also included is John 1:18 and 1 Timothy6:16.

At Revelation 1:8 it is Jesus Christ Himself doing the talking and claiming He is the "Almighty." (Btw, as a side note it was Jesus who claimed to be Almighty God at Genesis 17:1-3.) This is just a side note for informational purposes only, I won't get into details at this time.

Your biggest mistake in all of this is when you quoted Revelation 3:14 demonstrating that Jesus is a created being like the rest of us. If you would have done your homework on the verse the word for "Beginning" in the Greek is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word. What do you think the job of an architect is? He is the "origine" or draws up the plans of anything that is to be made. In Thayer's Greek Lexicon (who btw is a Unitarian) it says, "beginning, origin, the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader etc. You can also look it up in Strong's Lexicon #746.

This makes sense because John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 backs it up. I'm also surprised you did not bring up Proverbs 8:22. "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old." Are you a Jehovah's Witnesses RR? I ask because these are their two go to verses to prove Jesus is created. In short, these facts alone "checkmate" your position.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,901
2,322
113
#43
Angels aren't men
Stop....
Not true.

Angel is the broad category and men are a particular. Meaning that an Angel is a messenger which can be a host of things God can use to send a message. From pestilence to prosperity. Catapillars, locusts, and Donkeys....and even including men as prophets....sometimes without them having an ounce of faith.

Now a semi-autonomous supernatural being that has conversations with men concerning what God wants them to do specifically?
Yeah....I'm not exactly sure that going beyond what scripture says very specifically is advisable.
Just saying....
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,901
2,322
113
#44
Now for the OP proposition concerning the parallelism that is not parallelism....

Ummmmm
Sand of the SHORE vx Stars of the sky

Where there is a difference between the two....both are uncountable and immeasurable. So I would be hesitant to try. (Especially since touching anything belonging to God is verboten unless expressed written consent is given....and God is not writing more books lately)

Where this seems to be in error is the story of the workers where called at different times of the day and ALL paid the same wage. One had worked a full day Where one lucky guy showed up and barely worked an hour....and the all day worker complained that the guy who worked one hour got the same money as he did. And that is what this whole silly argument seems to center upon. Somebody wants to be "special" in heaven. They want the extra amenities in Heaven for their "hard work" here on earth. The loufa, special bath towel, or 4 color embroidery on their bath robe....whatever.

Not happening according to Jesus and this parable. Everyone is granted the SAME REWARD.

However....that being said.
We all have different abilities and talents. Meaning some in heaven, due to their real heart condition, might be capable of more than others who made it into heaven.
Reason?
When we enter heaven in our glorified bodies ALL SIN is removed from us. We can't and will no longer be able to sin. So, whatever portion of us that remains after our sinful nature is removed is the identity/personality/capabilities we will have to work with.
Its not like money making skills will work.
There is no striving to "get ahead" in heaven....servant leadership of servants is the best it gets.
 
Mar 13, 2022
80
17
8
Indiana
#45
Come on RR, are these the best "excuses" you got in denying that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God? At Revelation 1:7 it is Jesus Christ who is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. It can't be God the Father because the Father cannot be seen even according to Jesus Himself. John 5:37, John 6:46. Also included is John 1:18 and 1 Timothy 6:16.
True, but Jesus isn't speaking in verse 7, John is. As I mentioned, Jesus interrupts John in verse 8.

At Revelation 1:8 it is Jesus Christ Himself doing the talking and claiming He is the "Almighty." (Btw, as a side note it was Jesus who claimed to be Almighty God at Genesis 17:1-3.) This is just a side note for informational purposes only, I won't get into details at this time.
Well, I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.

Your biggest mistake in all of this is when you quoted Revelation 3:14 demonstrating that Jesus is a created being like the rest of us. If you would have done your homework on the verse the word for "Beginning" in the Greek is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word. What do you think the job of an architect is? He is the "origine" or draws up the plans of anything that is to be made. In Thayer's Greek Lexicon (who btw is a Unitarian) it says, "beginning, origin, the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader etc. You can also look it up in Strong's Lexicon #746.
Thayer also says: "used absolutely, of the beginning of all things", "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause".
As noted above, "beginning" is the Greek word "ARCHE." We know it from English words like archeology - the study of beginnings.

This makes sense because John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 backs it up. I'm also surprised you did not bring up Proverbs 8:22. "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old."
Since you mentioned it, Colossians 1:15-18 is a remarkable summary concerning Jesus. It reflects John 1 perfectly except that Colossians makes a distinct difference from John 1. Colossians dwells on the concept of Jesus as "the first born of the dead." THAT is clearly a reference to his new position as a New Creature - a Divine being, "the image of the invisible God." Whereas John 1 and Revelation 3:14 speak of Jesus as being the "beginning of the creation" of God. These two references (John and Revelation) have to do with Jesus' original creation - "In the beginning (arche) was the Logos," as opposed to the Colossians "firstborn from the dead" - the New Creature.

Are you a Jehovah's Witnesses RR? I ask because these are their two go to verses to prove Jesus is created. In short, these facts alone "checkmate" your position.
No, I am not one of Jehovah's Witnesses.