Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.
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Careful Oyster67, Paul is very direct when discussing God's purpose. Please read the following.
Romans 9:11
For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.
You may be misunderstanding what Paul is discussing in Romans 9.
Think 'purpose', what is the purpose of God in choosing Jacob before Jacob was even born.
Romans 9:11
For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.
You may be misunderstanding what Paul is discussing in Romans 9.
Think 'purpose', what is the purpose of God in choosing Jacob before Jacob was even born.
The children of the promise are Christian.
When Paul was discussing the fact that the promise does not follow down every bloodline, what do you think he was illustrating? When Paul mentions in Rom 2 that an outward Jew is not a Jew, what do you think he was talking about?
Look at Rom 9 again. In Rom 9:6 he states "not all of Israel are Israel". In Rom 9:7 he gives an example about how the identity is not passed by bloodline alone. In Rom 9:8 he states "that is to say those of bloodline are not children of God, but those of the promise are counted for the heirs". In Rom 9:17 he explains that God will sometimes raise people up to think they are so great for the purpose of making an example of them, to demonstrate His power and His mercy. This would mean it would be completely consistent with His designs to raise antiChrist Jews into high power solely for the purpose of making an example of them.
If you fixate on cherry-picked words, it is easy to miss the nuance of what he is talking about. He isn't saying that all descendants of Isaac are chosen/elect/etc. He is stating that the promised are only a subset of descendants and not elect on the basis of merely bloodline. If you look deeper into scripture you will find that it is only those in Christ that are heirs to the promise. Not all of Israel are Israel, this exclusion is not limited to nonIsaac descendants.
When Paul was discussing the fact that the promise does not follow down every bloodline, what do you think he was illustrating? When Paul mentions in Rom 2 that an outward Jew is not a Jew, what do you think he was talking about?
Look at Rom 9 again. In Rom 9:6 he states "not all of Israel are Israel". In Rom 9:7 he gives an example about how the identity is not passed by bloodline alone. In Rom 9:8 he states "that is to say those of bloodline are not children of God, but those of the promise are counted for the heirs". In Rom 9:17 he explains that God will sometimes raise people up to think they are so great for the purpose of making an example of them, to demonstrate His power and His mercy. This would mean it would be completely consistent with His designs to raise antiChrist Jews into high power solely for the purpose of making an example of them.
If you fixate on cherry-picked words, it is easy to miss the nuance of what he is talking about. He isn't saying that all descendants of Isaac are chosen/elect/etc. He is stating that the promised are only a subset of descendants and not elect on the basis of merely bloodline. If you look deeper into scripture you will find that it is only those in Christ that are heirs to the promise. Not all of Israel are Israel, this exclusion is not limited to nonIsaac descendants.
Weeeell for starters- Ephesians 2:1-5... that's all about God's grace.. but there is nothing in there that doesn't support believing in Jesus for eternal salvation. Again.. belief is responding to conviction on the heart.. not working to get eternal salvation.. that is impossible.
The response to the conviction isn't a work.. it's a giving in.. a receiving... not resisting. That's not working.
The response to the conviction isn't a work.. it's a giving in.. a receiving... not resisting. That's not working.
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I like the humility and openness of your whole post but only highlighted this portion because it is actually a MISquote of what Jesus said in John 6:44. (Please re-read it and the verse before and after)
Jesus was saying that they wouldn't come to himself (the son, the sent of God, the messiah) unless they learn how to learn directly from GOD by seeking GOD directly.
Verse 43 =Jesus was advising them not discuss it amongst themselves (aka don't rely on the thoughts of man or even your own thoughts).
Verse 44= Jesus advising them to go discuss it with God DIRECTLY because you need to learn how to let God teach you directly if you want to discern and follow those that God actually sends. Because....
Verse 45 = It has already been prophesied that nobody has to tell the true followers of God to go pray about it until God himself makes it clear to them because the only way they GOT to that status was BY seeking God directly until he made it clear to them.
I'll give two (biblical) illustrations of that concept:
First... Consider Peter at the last supper and in the garden. Peter thought he could stand by his own conviction + determination... But Jesus told him basically " Look, if you don't learn how to get power from above, you won't stand no matter how hard you try. You NEED to get some things directly from God in prayer," (Mark 14:38, Luke 22:46) Peter failed to go to God directly, and he therefore failed to stand... as was predicted.
Well, I had another example from another angle but I seem to have forgotten it while explaining the first one. Sorry for that.
I'm still hoping the point so far was clear enough to understand. When typing on a phone its hard to see how it looks/reads as a finished product.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Jesus was saying that they wouldn't come to himself (the son, the sent of God, the messiah) unless they learn how to learn directly from GOD by seeking GOD directly.
Verse 43 =Jesus was advising them not discuss it amongst themselves (aka don't rely on the thoughts of man or even your own thoughts).
Verse 44= Jesus advising them to go discuss it with God DIRECTLY because you need to learn how to let God teach you directly if you want to discern and follow those that God actually sends. Because....
Verse 45 = It has already been prophesied that nobody has to tell the true followers of God to go pray about it until God himself makes it clear to them because the only way they GOT to that status was BY seeking God directly until he made it clear to them.
I'll give two (biblical) illustrations of that concept:
First... Consider Peter at the last supper and in the garden. Peter thought he could stand by his own conviction + determination... But Jesus told him basically " Look, if you don't learn how to get power from above, you won't stand no matter how hard you try. You NEED to get some things directly from God in prayer," (Mark 14:38, Luke 22:46) Peter failed to go to God directly, and he therefore failed to stand... as was predicted.
Well, I had another example from another angle but I seem to have forgotten it while explaining the first one. Sorry for that.
I'm still hoping the point so far was clear enough to understand. When typing on a phone its hard to see how it looks/reads as a finished product.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
@smmartin0507. I remembered! It is this verse:
Romans 8:14 KJVS
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
People claim to be sons and kinda worse yet "to have a PERSONAL relationship with God" and yet have no idea how to actually ask God something until He answers.
People call me names for believing God can answer... But the Bible suggests that ALL his sheep hear his voice.
I'm just encouraging people to seek (Him) until you find (Him) and knock on his door of understanding until he opens it, and ask until you receive.
Don't give up halfway there.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Romans 8:14 KJVS
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
People claim to be sons and kinda worse yet "to have a PERSONAL relationship with God" and yet have no idea how to actually ask God something until He answers.
People call me names for believing God can answer... But the Bible suggests that ALL his sheep hear his voice.
I'm just encouraging people to seek (Him) until you find (Him) and knock on his door of understanding until he opens it, and ask until you receive.
Don't give up halfway there.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
What about it? Have you read Rom. 1?
Romans 1:18–21 (NASB95): “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.”
Romans 1:18–21 (NASB95): “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.”
Believing in spiritual things comes from being taught about spiritual things. A newborn babe in Christ are the only ones that are taught about spiritual things. The newborn babe, whether spiritual, or natural, has to grow in knowledge, which is brought about by instructions from those that are mature, spiritually, or by nature. A natural baby learns nothing until they are born. It is the same with the newborn babes in Christ, they know nothing of spiritual things, until they have been born spiritually.
John 6:39 does not say "all men". It says only those that his Father gave to him (John 10:27-29). Those that Christ died for on the cross were cleansed by his blood, at the time he died. They don't have to choose to be cleansed.
Christ was a sacrifice to God, FOR GOD"S ACCEPTANCE, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.
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