Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

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Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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You need to read Romans 9 again without the blinders of what you WISH Romans 9 said. I don't mean that in a bad way. Its something we all need to do.

Romans 9:20-24
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Isn't this ABSOLUTELY clear???
Yes Sir, it is very clear.

If I tore Romans 9:20-24, out of the context of Romans 9,10,11. Then Of course, I would be an ultra Calvinist.

When I consider Romans 9:20-24 in the wider context, then I am reluctant to choose a side.

Romans 11:20-21
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

You can be grafted out as easily as you were grafted in.

That is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvin does not mention any of the chosen being grafted out.

The context of those three chapters leaves the will of God, as a mysterious transaction, as Paul states.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,657
472
83
The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated
Try starting from Romans chapter 1, and not at 8 (or 9) and read/meditate on it with MUCH prayer!

Throw Mr Calvin in the bin!
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
1,862
708
113
Sorry, I don’t know what paring down means.
You accurately reduced my argument to its basic meaning.

To "pare something down" means to remove (cut away) "only what" or "everything that" isn't necessary... as if with a paring knife.

A paring knife is probably the smallest and sharpest knife in the kitchen drawer and is used for the most delicate work. Other knives are used by a motion of the arm . But a paring knife is often held in the bend of the fingers and cuts with a motion bringing the length of the cutting edge towards (and sometimes in contact with) the pad of the user's thumb.

Picture a "thumbs up" with the hand open but the fingers still wrapped around the handle of a knife with a thin 2-3" blade. The blade is sticking up like the thumb, and the sharp edge (not the point) is aimed towards the thumb. It is used by closing the hand, bringing the edge of the knife very nearly in contact with the thumb. The work being accomplished (usually peeling fruit or shaving something) can be done with great accuracy and precision because of the way the knife is held and the risk of cutting the thumb if carelessness is employed.

The interesting thing is that a paring knife is used intuitively, mainly by "feel" rather than by sight, so the user may APPEAR distracted as they chat with others or gaze out the window at something interesting while using the knife. It's actually my favorite kitchen knife.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
1,493
487
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More heretical garbage.
Its kind of funny how they denounce puffing yourself up thinking you saved yourself because you trusted in someone else to save you. Yet they puff themselves up as someone special. Who was not chosen as a member to prove Gods wrath, and specially selected to be chosen to prove his love..

Gods answer to evil is love, kindness, longsuffering. The result of evil as Jesus said is that as it spe=reads. Love will grow cold.

how can we tell the world that evil is not the answer. But love is, if we tell the world God hated them if they are not his elect?

How can we on the other hand show Gods love to the world. If we believe Gods love is selective and only given to a select group of people? We can’t

the nativity was given to the world.. not the elect. It showed Gods love, not to the elect, but to the world.. knowing many would reject him, he showed he loved them anyway..

that is what will cut people to the heart. When the God they hated showed them he loved them and offered a way to them, but they rejected his love.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,495
3,163
113
Yes Sir, it is very clear.

If I tore Romans 9:20-24, out of the context of Romans 9,10,11. Then Of course, I would be an ultra Calvinist.

When I consider Romans 9:20-24 in the wider context, then I am reluctant to choose a side.

Romans 11:20-21
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

You can be grafted out as easily as you were grafted in.

That is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvin does not mention any of the chosen being grafted out.

The context of those three chapters leaves the will of God, as a mysterious transaction, as Paul states.
I don't really care about Calvinism.

I just care about what Scripture says.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Your assumption and mis-interpretation of Romans 11 doesn't match John 10. Perhaps this is why Calvinism doesn't teach it.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
990
515
93
You accurately reduced my argument to its basic meaning.

To "pare something down" means to remove (cut away) "only what" or "everything that" isn't necessary... as if with a paring knife.

A paring knife is probably the smallest and sharpest knife in the kitchen drawer and is used for the most delicate work. Other knives are used by a motion of the arm . But a paring knife is often held in the bend of the fingers and cuts with a motion bringing the length of the cutting edge towards (and sometimes in contact with) the pad of the user's thumb.

Picture a "thumbs up" with the hand open but the fingers still wrapped around the handle of a knife with a thin 2-3" blade. The blade is sticking up like the thumb, and the sharp edge (not the point) is aimed towards the thumb. It is used by closing the hand, bringing the edge of the knife very nearly in contact with the thumb. The work being accomplished (usually peeling fruit or shaving something) can be done with great accuracy and precision because of the way the knife is held and the risk of cutting the thumb if carelessness is employed.

The interesting thing is that a paring knife is used intuitively, mainly by "feel" rather than by sight, so the user may APPEAR distracted as they chat with others or gaze out the window at something interesting while using the knife. It's actually my favorite kitchen knife.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Thank you for taking the time explaining paring down. 😊 I like everything you wrote in post 354 but highlighted the very heart of it.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
990
515
93
Its kind of funny how they denounce puffing yourself up thinking you saved yourself because you trusted in someone else to save you. Yet they puff themselves up as someone special. Who was not chosen as a member to prove Gods wrath, and specially selected to be chosen to prove his love..

Gods answer to evil is love, kindness, longsuffering. The result of evil as Jesus said is that as it spe=reads. Love will grow cold.

how can we tell the world that evil is not the answer. But love is, if we tell the world God hated them if they are not his elect?

How can we on the other hand show Gods love to the world. If we believe Gods love is selective and only given to a select group of people? We can’t

the nativity was given to the world.. not the elect. It showed Gods love, not to the elect, but to the world.. knowing many would reject him, he showed he loved them anyway..

that is what will cut people to the heart. When the God they hated showed them he loved them and offered a way to them, but they rejected his love.
You’re absolutely right. Scripture teaches us that God is love, but the puffers teach otherwise. Talk about the blind leading the blind.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
990
515
93
It means she's thankful that you both hate what scripture says when someone finally tells you what it ACTUALLY means.
Thank God we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not in calvinistic heresy. 😊
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Thank God we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not in calvinistic heresy. 😊
Hey bro. They believe we are saved by grace through faith also

they just believe God made them alive so they could see. And that gift of life is what caused them to have faith

where we believe God brought us to our knees, where like the tax collector we had two choices. 1. Continue to resist Gods love and deny it because we love our sin, or 2. become poor in spirit, and on our knees call out to God because we have no hope.

Jesus said to enter the kingdom of God, we must become poor in spirit. Thats why the gate is narrow. The religious do not think they are bankrupt. They think they can still save themselves they just need some help from God. Where the sinner loves their sin so much, they make their own God one that will serve them, then they can hide the fact they know they are rightly judged and God turns them over to their sin.

a calvinist understands their depraved spirit and heart and how unworthy they are. They just for some reason I can not explain. Are afraid to think they could save themselves. So they claim even true saving faith in a holy God who came to save them through his work is somehow a work of the flesh which would disqualify them for salvation. So they answer that with the idea that God gave them their faith by making them alive so they could understand, that way their faith is not a work of the flesh but a work of God.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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Hey bro. They believe we are saved by grace through faith also
Yet they show contempt for Christians who disagree with calvinism. Talk about putting the unnecessary cart before the horse.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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I am curious why the OP mentions chapter 8 and chapter 9 in this thinking

if we look at romans, we see the first 8 chapters are pat of what many call the roman road

in these chapters paul tells us that we have all sinned, in other words, no one gets a free ride, because all have sinned,

he tells us the wage of sin (death) concluding that we are all dead before God, there is non righteous no not one

He then tells us the price of salvation. and the love of God, in that he sent his own son to die the death (the wage of sin) so we may be given the gift of life.

He tells us it is not by works. It never has been by works. But through faith. He uses abraham as an example. Abraham who did not earn his salvation by works, as the jew wanted us to believe, but that he, before the law, was found righteous because of his faith in God. And because of it, God imputed his righteousness to Abraham, so when Gd saw abraham, he did not see abrahams sin, he saw his sons righteousness. What the law would later show as a covering by the blood of the lamb. And that those of us today are saved by the faith of abraham, which was Gods will all along

He tells us this covering, or redemption comes to us for free. His justification comes through the redemption which is through the work of Christ, or his death.

he then tells us the result of this salvation. That b cause we were saved by Gods grace abd Gods work. We have peace through God, we are no longer condemned, and we have security, that nothing can seperate us from Gods love

so we have the why, the how and the result of Gods work.

then in romans 9 through 11, paul seems to switch to a different type. To answer the question. Has God made a mistake? The very people that God chose. Who he gave the adoption. They have the glory,. The covenants. The giving of the law. The service of god. They city. And the temple. These same people who crucified his son, who rejects his grace, who are his and pauls enemy concerning the gospel. Who claim God chose them because of the righteousness of the fathers. That God chose them because they were not gentile. That gentiles are outcasts and will never be given Gods glory. That they are sinners and judged rightly undeserving. Paul goes step by step showing the roman church God did not make a mistake. He did not chose them according to Mans way. But according to Gods way. He did not chose them because they were righteous. He chose them before they were even born, in the womb, that he did have a special love t=for them as his people who were called out, so he loved them more, while he loved his brother less (esau) that f we look at history. God spent centuries tries to mold them into his glory. And when they went away from him, or became soiled. He would start over, as the potter molds the clay, sp to will he, That how God raised up a gentile king. Knowing in his omniscience exactly how that king would react to show the world his power. he showed how the OT not only prophesied that a people who were not his would become his. How israel would fall. And how the gentiles would be given a time to do what Israel was supposed to do. But that just as Israel fell. So would these gentiles. And in the end. God will keep his prMoses to his chosen. Not for the sake of the people. But for the sake of the father, and the promises he made to them/ That God keeps his promises. Not only to Israel. But to everyone who is adopted, we can be assured that God will never let us go. Because when God makes a promise he keeps it. No matter what we do.

then in chapter 12/ he appears to continue from where he left of in chapter 9,, therefore sin these things….
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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I so hate spell check.. and the 5 minute rule.. so many spelling errors in the above. Forgive me, also The last line should say chapter 8 not chapter 9;;
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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1 Cor 2:14 does not say “unregenerate person.” It says psuchikos, which means “soulish,” or “of the soul.” IE: a natural person, a person influenced by the world. There are Christians who live their lives that way… Any person, Christian or not, can change their thinking and become concerned about things of the spirit.

The natural man and the unregenerate man, are one in the same. The natural man has not been quickened by God to a new Spiritual man. Even though the Spiritual man has been born again, he still carries the baggage of his fleshly nature with him, and yields to the temptations of his fleshly nature quite often.