Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.
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God hates evil, not ignorant people. People become evil because they love themselves too much. That's why the Bible says all the laws are included in loving your neighbor as yourself.love others as yourself.
The world is the blind leading the blind, so people can't see the light, even if they see a little, will think it is an illusion.
You should be happy because you have seen the light, and feel sad and sorry for those who do not see the light.
We're like Ufos, things that people don't understand, because they're still living under the inertia of Newton's first Law, the inertia of the world, and it's hard for people to overcome it under gravity.
You and I both know what Satan does -- an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, skin for skin. But God changed it into love for love, don't get it wrong as love for hate or hate for love.
God's wrath is only used as a last resort for those who know God's love and still despise Him.
If you have faith in God, would we doubt God's justice.
God Knows when it's the time to be wrath,But it's not up to you and me to decide.
The world is the blind leading the blind, so people can't see the light, even if they see a little, will think it is an illusion.
You should be happy because you have seen the light, and feel sad and sorry for those who do not see the light.
We're like Ufos, things that people don't understand, because they're still living under the inertia of Newton's first Law, the inertia of the world, and it's hard for people to overcome it under gravity.
You and I both know what Satan does -- an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, skin for skin. But God changed it into love for love, don't get it wrong as love for hate or hate for love.
God's wrath is only used as a last resort for those who know God's love and still despise Him.
If you have faith in God, would we doubt God's justice.
God Knows when it's the time to be wrath,But it's not up to you and me to decide.
Those that he did foreknow, are those that he called, according to his purpose (Rom 9:28) (Rom 9:11)
2 Tim 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works (believing) but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.
You have misunderstood the meaning of this sentence.
God's purpose and grace which in Jesus Christ before the world began.
It's not to express that it's given to a specific person.
God's will is for everyone.
What does Theory of predestination and election actually mean to God's will to save everyone?
God's purpose and grace which in Jesus Christ before the world began.
It's not to express that it's given to a specific person.
God's will is for everyone.
What does Theory of predestination and election actually mean to God's will to save everyone?
^I think this is at the heart of your contention: the modern geopolitical state that calls itself Israel.
From what I've read of your responses in this and the other thread, it seems that because you've found that the current state can not possibly fulfill the promises made to Israel (a view I agree with), you've concluded that an interpretation where the promises are made to an ethnic bloodline of Israel are equally incorrect; that these promises are fulfilled on a spiritual level in gentile believers (i.e. Christians) through forfeit by ethnic Israel.
But may I suggest that it isn't an "either-or" situation between these two options. There's a third option: There are promises made to an ethnic bloodline of Israel but the modern people currently in the land are not of that ethnic bloodline. The ethnic bloodline descendants are still scattered and have yet to inherit the promises during this "time of the Gentiles" (which we're currently in).
----
When I mention Israel or The nation of Israel I'm speaking about Jacob whose name was changed and his descendants who formed the 12 tribes and the ancient kingdom and future ethnic descendants. I'm never speaking about the modern geopolitical state.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Repeating everything in the above passage in bullet points:
a) This is a promise of a new covenant.
b) This promise was made to a specific ethnic group. Particularly, the northern and southern houses of Israel.
c) Their forefathers are clarified as being those who The Almighty specifically brought out of the land of Egypt
d) The promise was to write His law on their hearts
d) The promise was also to forgive their sin and remember it no more (i.e. salvation)
Even after the people broke His original covenant, the Almighty made this promise of a new covenant specifically to Israel. Not because of them but in spite of them. WHY? Because of His love for their patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob). Out of love for them, He made a promise to these Hebrew men that their seed would receive certain things, and He doesn't lie.
Not all of their seed needs to receive those promises, but enough of their seed MUST receive those promises. Yes, The Messiah is heir according to those promises but so is a remnant of ethnic Israel.
Q) Who is the remnant of Israel?
A) The 144,000
Revelation 7 makes a unique distinction between the 12,000 who are sealed from each of the 12 chosen families and then distinguishes them from the great multitude of people from EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue wearing white robes that no man could count. A specific number of Israelites is described apart from the innumerable group of gentile believers.
So while it's true that not all those who say they are Israel are of Israel. It's equally true that Israel MUST and will always comprise those who are naturally from Israel. The Almighty is not a liar. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. The church does not transform into Israel, rather Israel now includes the church (I'm using "the church" here to distinguish "gentile believers/Christians" from natural Israelites). Gentiles do not bear the root, the root bears them. Gentiles are not a new foundation upon which Israel is named/built. They are an additional offshoot/branch.
----
The remnant of Israel, the Elect; these 144,000 have not been gathered yet because the living God gathers them when He returns. Like a net, Israel was scattered/cast into the world ("the kingdom of heaven is like a net..." - Matt 13:47).
Through them, the world has been blessed in fulfillment of a promise to Abraham (just consider how influential the scriptures have been on society. Nations were barbarian prior to the Word and prior to many adopted practices from the Jews). Consider how many gentile "fishes" have been hooked by this Judeo-Christian faith.
And when the Messiah comes to regather that net (The 144,000 Israelites to whom the promises belong), He'll also gather with them the full measure of gentile believers who are faithful to Him.
----
Q) So who are those currently in the land?
A) Esau/Edom, as the scriptures prophesied would happen and as history confirms.
An almost identical promise was made to Esau after losing his blessing to Jacob. Esau was promised ALL that Jacob would receive...but only when he was freed from Jacob's yolk and only through the sword. (Gen 27:38).
So as long as Jacob operated as Israel (i.e. strived with God) Edomites served them, but once Israel started acting like Jacob (i.e. supplanting; no longer striving with God) Edomites seized power, position, and property from Israel. This is how Edomites gained control of the Temple and the throne (Herod, king of the Jews was an Idumean/Edomite and many Edomites became Pharisees).
"Not all who say they are Israel are Israel"
Esau forfeited his birthright, but Jacob still participated in sin to receive it which violated God's law ("thou shall not lie/steal"). So like Jacob pretended to be Esau to steal the birthright, in fulfillment of the law "eye for an eye" Edomites would pretend to be Israelites to take what was Israel's.
----
The book of Ezekiel was written while in Babylonian captivity. This is an important time marker because God prophesies everything that will happen, in order, when Jews return to the land during the 2nd temple period and after. Notice how certain verses have matched history so far while other verses parallel NT predictions still to be fulfilled:
1)
Ezekiel 33:28-29
- Jews will start sinning again when they return from Babylon
- Fulfilled prior to Christ's birth (457 - 3 BC)
2)
Ezekiel 34
- Corrupt shepherds will mislead the sheep
- But God will search out his sheep and make a covenant with them
- Fulfilled: Christ vs Pharisees; Christ saying He must find the lost sheep; The cross; Pentecost (27 - 34 AD)
3)
Ezekiel 35:5-15
- Israelites' final stage of punishment (fulfilled: Jerusalem and temple destroyed, 70 AD)
- Edomites will claim the land as theirs,
- They would live through constant war ("The Sword"); never be at peace there.
- Fulfilled: In 1948, those claiming to be Jews took the land but have never had peace since "returning"
- Their official 1925 edition encyclopedia says "Edom is in modern Jewry"
4)
Ezekiel 36:1-7
- God will be angry at Edom for claiming the land as their property
- God will be angry at the nations for claiming His people as their property
- See Luke 21:24 ("Jerusalem to be trampled over and the Jews would be led away as captive into all nations")
5)
Ezekiel 36:8-15
- The nations will mock God's people and mistreat them
- God Himself will regather them and return them home in the future
- I believe we are currently here
6)
Ezekiel 36:24-27
- God will gather his people out of the lands of their captivity
- God will confirm the new covenant with them
- See Matt 24:31 ("gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other")
7)
Ezekiel 37
- Valley of dry bones
- The dead of both houses will resurrect to life and both houses will reunite
- See 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (Resurrection of the dead in Christ)
8)
Ezekiel 38-39
- Then Israel will live in safety in their land without any protective walls
- (The modern state of "Israel" continues to build partitions between them and Palestinians)
- Gog & Magog will be tempted to invade. But God will destroy them himself in his fiery fury.
- See Revelation 20 (1000-year reign followed by Gog/Magog invasion and fiery judgment)
9)
Ezekiel 40-45
- Details of the Millennial temple/city
- See Revelation 21 (Holy city descends from heaven)
From what I've read of your responses in this and the other thread, it seems that because you've found that the current state can not possibly fulfill the promises made to Israel (a view I agree with), you've concluded that an interpretation where the promises are made to an ethnic bloodline of Israel are equally incorrect; that these promises are fulfilled on a spiritual level in gentile believers (i.e. Christians) through forfeit by ethnic Israel.
But may I suggest that it isn't an "either-or" situation between these two options. There's a third option: There are promises made to an ethnic bloodline of Israel but the modern people currently in the land are not of that ethnic bloodline. The ethnic bloodline descendants are still scattered and have yet to inherit the promises during this "time of the Gentiles" (which we're currently in).
----
When I mention Israel or The nation of Israel I'm speaking about Jacob whose name was changed and his descendants who formed the 12 tribes and the ancient kingdom and future ethnic descendants. I'm never speaking about the modern geopolitical state.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Repeating everything in the above passage in bullet points:
a) This is a promise of a new covenant.
b) This promise was made to a specific ethnic group. Particularly, the northern and southern houses of Israel.
c) Their forefathers are clarified as being those who The Almighty specifically brought out of the land of Egypt
d) The promise was to write His law on their hearts
d) The promise was also to forgive their sin and remember it no more (i.e. salvation)
Even after the people broke His original covenant, the Almighty made this promise of a new covenant specifically to Israel. Not because of them but in spite of them. WHY? Because of His love for their patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob). Out of love for them, He made a promise to these Hebrew men that their seed would receive certain things, and He doesn't lie.
Not all of their seed needs to receive those promises, but enough of their seed MUST receive those promises. Yes, The Messiah is heir according to those promises but so is a remnant of ethnic Israel.
Q) Who is the remnant of Israel?
A) The 144,000
Revelation 7 makes a unique distinction between the 12,000 who are sealed from each of the 12 chosen families and then distinguishes them from the great multitude of people from EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue wearing white robes that no man could count. A specific number of Israelites is described apart from the innumerable group of gentile believers.
So while it's true that not all those who say they are Israel are of Israel. It's equally true that Israel MUST and will always comprise those who are naturally from Israel. The Almighty is not a liar. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. The church does not transform into Israel, rather Israel now includes the church (I'm using "the church" here to distinguish "gentile believers/Christians" from natural Israelites). Gentiles do not bear the root, the root bears them. Gentiles are not a new foundation upon which Israel is named/built. They are an additional offshoot/branch.
----
The remnant of Israel, the Elect; these 144,000 have not been gathered yet because the living God gathers them when He returns. Like a net, Israel was scattered/cast into the world ("the kingdom of heaven is like a net..." - Matt 13:47).
Through them, the world has been blessed in fulfillment of a promise to Abraham (just consider how influential the scriptures have been on society. Nations were barbarian prior to the Word and prior to many adopted practices from the Jews). Consider how many gentile "fishes" have been hooked by this Judeo-Christian faith.
And when the Messiah comes to regather that net (The 144,000 Israelites to whom the promises belong), He'll also gather with them the full measure of gentile believers who are faithful to Him.
----
Q) So who are those currently in the land?
A) Esau/Edom, as the scriptures prophesied would happen and as history confirms.
An almost identical promise was made to Esau after losing his blessing to Jacob. Esau was promised ALL that Jacob would receive...but only when he was freed from Jacob's yolk and only through the sword. (Gen 27:38).
So as long as Jacob operated as Israel (i.e. strived with God) Edomites served them, but once Israel started acting like Jacob (i.e. supplanting; no longer striving with God) Edomites seized power, position, and property from Israel. This is how Edomites gained control of the Temple and the throne (Herod, king of the Jews was an Idumean/Edomite and many Edomites became Pharisees).
"Not all who say they are Israel are Israel"
Esau forfeited his birthright, but Jacob still participated in sin to receive it which violated God's law ("thou shall not lie/steal"). So like Jacob pretended to be Esau to steal the birthright, in fulfillment of the law "eye for an eye" Edomites would pretend to be Israelites to take what was Israel's.
----
The book of Ezekiel was written while in Babylonian captivity. This is an important time marker because God prophesies everything that will happen, in order, when Jews return to the land during the 2nd temple period and after. Notice how certain verses have matched history so far while other verses parallel NT predictions still to be fulfilled:
1)
Ezekiel 33:28-29
- Jews will start sinning again when they return from Babylon
- Fulfilled prior to Christ's birth (457 - 3 BC)
2)
Ezekiel 34
- Corrupt shepherds will mislead the sheep
- But God will search out his sheep and make a covenant with them
- Fulfilled: Christ vs Pharisees; Christ saying He must find the lost sheep; The cross; Pentecost (27 - 34 AD)
3)
Ezekiel 35:5-15
- Israelites' final stage of punishment (fulfilled: Jerusalem and temple destroyed, 70 AD)
- Edomites will claim the land as theirs,
- They would live through constant war ("The Sword"); never be at peace there.
- Fulfilled: In 1948, those claiming to be Jews took the land but have never had peace since "returning"
- Their official 1925 edition encyclopedia says "Edom is in modern Jewry"
4)
Ezekiel 36:1-7
- God will be angry at Edom for claiming the land as their property
- God will be angry at the nations for claiming His people as their property
- See Luke 21:24 ("Jerusalem to be trampled over and the Jews would be led away as captive into all nations")
5)
Ezekiel 36:8-15
- The nations will mock God's people and mistreat them
- God Himself will regather them and return them home in the future
- I believe we are currently here
6)
Ezekiel 36:24-27
- God will gather his people out of the lands of their captivity
- God will confirm the new covenant with them
- See Matt 24:31 ("gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other")
7)
Ezekiel 37
- Valley of dry bones
- The dead of both houses will resurrect to life and both houses will reunite
- See 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (Resurrection of the dead in Christ)
8)
Ezekiel 38-39
- Then Israel will live in safety in their land without any protective walls
- (The modern state of "Israel" continues to build partitions between them and Palestinians)
- Gog & Magog will be tempted to invade. But God will destroy them himself in his fiery fury.
- See Revelation 20 (1000-year reign followed by Gog/Magog invasion and fiery judgment)
9)
Ezekiel 40-45
- Details of the Millennial temple/city
- See Revelation 21 (Holy city descends from heaven)
The one constant we know God is the same yesterday today and forever.
When Jesus arrived onto the scene there were several beliefs between the Saducees Pharisees and Scribes.
They had several differences between the Three.
But, when they would offer a Sin Offering all Three Members were SAVED!!
God is still the SAME amongst the different views of Today. If you have accepted Christ and submit unto God you are Saved.
Only a FOOL would think their understanding of God's Holy Word is the absolute correct one. [[((Especially knowing that most of these retarded Doctrines come from the Textus Receptus KJV which we know is so far removed from the TRUTH it would literally be impossible to think you know anything about God and His intended Message))]]..
When Jesus arrived onto the scene there were several beliefs between the Saducees Pharisees and Scribes.
They had several differences between the Three.
But, when they would offer a Sin Offering all Three Members were SAVED!!
God is still the SAME amongst the different views of Today. If you have accepted Christ and submit unto God you are Saved.
Only a FOOL would think their understanding of God's Holy Word is the absolute correct one. [[((Especially knowing that most of these retarded Doctrines come from the Textus Receptus KJV which we know is so far removed from the TRUTH it would literally be impossible to think you know anything about God and His intended Message))]]..
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The same verse where it means, "whom he did foreknow"....he also didn't predestine to be conformed to his Sons' image.
You see my friend? It's like when our Lord says,
I never knew you Mt.7:23
We understand he doesn't mean he never knew them at all
In Psa.53:1, David is speaking of foolish people.
Furthermore, if they "became filthy", they weren't that way to begin with.
And lastly, when Paul quotes that Psalm
In Rom.3:10, he means both Jews and gentiles (vs.9)....that became foolish in their thinking.....and their hearts became darkened.
I guess you think a man who was worshipped as a god (as all the Pharaohs were), needed his heart hardened another way, insread of simply sending a peon like Moses with a demand.
It's amazing that people rarely question anything a so called Christian scholar says. Like many scribes and Pharisees who spent their lives studying scripture, but knew nothing about the truth.
You see my friend? It's like when our Lord says,
I never knew you Mt.7:23
We understand he doesn't mean he never knew them at all
In Psa.53:1, David is speaking of foolish people.
Furthermore, if they "became filthy", they weren't that way to begin with.
And lastly, when Paul quotes that Psalm
In Rom.3:10, he means both Jews and gentiles (vs.9)....that became foolish in their thinking.....and their hearts became darkened.
I guess you think a man who was worshipped as a god (as all the Pharaohs were), needed his heart hardened another way, insread of simply sending a peon like Moses with a demand.
It's amazing that people rarely question anything a so called Christian scholar says. Like many scribes and Pharisees who spent their lives studying scripture, but knew nothing about the truth.
I basically like/agree with what you're saying...but I heard an explanation that makes more sense (to me). I'll paraphrase and elaborate:
A "Christian" (by my definition) is a marriage of God and man... making a new creature that includes both. You bring who you are, God brings who he is. You bring your corruptible flesh, God brings his incorruptible spirit.
Your flesh remains just as corruptible, deceptive, prone to temptation, just as likely to sin and fail as it was on the day you entered the relationship and no matter how long you've been in the relationship. And it will stay that way until the day of the redemption of the purchased possession, the day we are "changed", the day of the manifestation of the sons of God. Then it too (the creature also) will be changed into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
And at NO TIME prior to that glorious day is your flesh trustworthy. <-- That's what you bring into the relationship.
God brings himself. God is a Spirit...that cannot lie...that IS love...that cannot tempt or be tempted with sin...etc. He can ALWAYS be trusted...and he cannot change.<--That's what He brings to the relationship.
The natural man is simply that corruptible part we bring into the relationship. And the spiritual man is simply that incorruptible part God brings.
The way the guy said it originally is this: "Don't fool yourself. Your flesh is NOT getting better. Your flesh is no more trustable than the day you were born. We like to think we're getting better.. But if we let our flesh have its way, we'll quickly find out that our flesh hasn't forgotten any of those things it likes to do. Your flesh hasn't gotten better at all."
At first that was a little hard to hear, but the longer I thought about it, the more it makes sense.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
A "Christian" (by my definition) is a marriage of God and man... making a new creature that includes both. You bring who you are, God brings who he is. You bring your corruptible flesh, God brings his incorruptible spirit.
Your flesh remains just as corruptible, deceptive, prone to temptation, just as likely to sin and fail as it was on the day you entered the relationship and no matter how long you've been in the relationship. And it will stay that way until the day of the redemption of the purchased possession, the day we are "changed", the day of the manifestation of the sons of God. Then it too (the creature also) will be changed into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
And at NO TIME prior to that glorious day is your flesh trustworthy. <-- That's what you bring into the relationship.
God brings himself. God is a Spirit...that cannot lie...that IS love...that cannot tempt or be tempted with sin...etc. He can ALWAYS be trusted...and he cannot change.<--That's what He brings to the relationship.
The natural man is simply that corruptible part we bring into the relationship. And the spiritual man is simply that incorruptible part God brings.
The way the guy said it originally is this: "Don't fool yourself. Your flesh is NOT getting better. Your flesh is no more trustable than the day you were born. We like to think we're getting better.. But if we let our flesh have its way, we'll quickly find out that our flesh hasn't forgotten any of those things it likes to do. Your flesh hasn't gotten better at all."
At first that was a little hard to hear, but the longer I thought about it, the more it makes sense.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
John 10:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Ps 73:5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.
Care to explain how you think I have avoided them?
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Ps 73:5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.
Care to explain how you think I have avoided them?
Yes it makes no sense to me to state they were lukewarm Christians even though He is addressing a particular church. Obviously the invitation is to any men.
He speaks to the lukewarm Christian first and then extends out the invitation, it becomes rather absurd to think He was extending an invitation to those already saved, since a luke warm Christian is still a Christian who is relying on his own righteousness rather than the righteousness of Jesus.
Very few come out of this dogma of Calvinism/TULIP, not sure why it is that way!!
He speaks to the lukewarm Christian first and then extends out the invitation, it becomes rather absurd to think He was extending an invitation to those already saved, since a luke warm Christian is still a Christian who is relying on his own righteousness rather than the righteousness of Jesus.
Very few come out of this dogma of Calvinism/TULIP, not sure why it is that way!!