study - Olivet Discourse

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iamsoandso

iamsoandso

Senior Member
#261
Oct 6, 2011
8,047
1,609
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#261
yes at some point maybe it would be interesting to review rev. 1;19 in the in the light of past present and future tense. it was always something i took note of before the computers came to exist in the groups of elders wrote letters to one another in those days(snail mail) the original discussion stemmed from rev.1;19 based on comments made to john by the angels in rev.

they first it seemed realized that the angel in ch.17 related that the beast that he(john) saw "was and is not" and "7 kings 5 are fallen" so the angel it would seem is pointing out to john that at the time he received the vision the beast as pointed out to john "would ascend out of the bottomless pit" so hence at the time john received this a certain portian of this was "past tense as to john while on patmos",,,and "one is" so the one then only being "present tense as to the same time-frame",,and then the same wording of the angel delivering then shifts to future tense.

i do agree that it might deserve it's own thread "rev.1;19" i think i will dig out some of my other bibles(over the years i made several sets of notes in different bibles) at some point in each i had no place to write around the wording so then began in another(i shifted to the large words as i got older,eyesight fades as we get older,lol),,,but i will try to locate the ones were i kept those notes,and in a while i will try to begin a thread on the matter,,thank you and godspeed,,,
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#262
#262
**** BUMP ****


One more time...

GRA said:
At what point in the future - between now and Armageddon - could the Jews possibly be "led away captive into all nations" - but then be "back in the land" in time for Armageddon?

( And, of course, match all related biblical prophecy. )

Anyone?

:)
Click to expand...
Does anyone actually have a real answer to this question? ( that matches all related biblical prophecy )

Is anyone actually willing to admit that they believe that this has already occurred in the past?

:)
 
P

PlainWord

Senior Member
#264
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#264
GaryA said:
**** BUMP ****


One more time...


Does anyone actually have a real answer to this question? ( that matches all related biblical prophecy )

Is anyone actually willing to admit that they believe that this has already occurred in the past?

:)
Click to expand...
Nice to see you back GRA. I thought we covered this? This passage concerning captivity from the three versions of the Olivet can only be found in Luke 21, right? This passage appears just a little before the passages describing Christ's return.

24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

But it is also found in Rev 13:

10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The location of the Rev 13 passage places this event between the two Beasts, which are the False Prophet and Antichrist.

Now see the same passage in Daniel 11. I want to give the context so bare with me:

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits.

33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue.

35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

I think this is saying that those who fall (including those captive) will be brought back when Christ returns at the end. How do you see it?
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#265
#265
So -- how much of the description in Daniel 11 is past, and how much of it is future...???

At what point / verse in Daniel 11 does it go from past to future...???

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#266
#266
GRA said:
How long is the 'times of the Gentiles'? When does it start? When does it end?

What is the shortest amount of time you might imagine it would take for the Jews to be "led away captive into all nations"...???

Are they all going to be back in time for dinner? . . . :D . . . I mean --- in time for Armageddon?

Are they all going to be "led away captive into all nations" after Armageddon??? . . . --- while the whole earth is shaking and the Wrath of God is being poured out???

JUST EXACTLY WHEN are the Jews going to be "led away captive into all nations"...??? ( in the future )

How long is the 'times of the Gentiles'? When does it start? When does it end?
Click to expand...
GRA said:
At what point in the future - between now and Armageddon - could the Jews possibly be "led away captive into all nations" - but then be "back in the land" in time for Armageddon?

( And, of course, match all related biblical prophecy. )
Click to expand...
GaryA said:
Does anyone actually have a real answer to this question? ( that matches all related biblical prophecy )

Is anyone actually willing to admit that they believe that this has already occurred in the past?

:)
Click to expand...
Luke 21:

[SUP]24[/SUP] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I believe this verse is telling us that the mark in time for what is being described in the first part of this verse ( before the colon ) - and the preceding verses - is AT or AFTER the beginning of 'the times of the Gentiles'.

So then -- either - these things described are in the past and we are now in 'the times of the Gentiles' ( or, it has already come and gone - and, 'the times of the Gentiles' is already fulfilled - and, Jerusalem is no longer being 'trodden down of the Gentiles' ) - or - these things described are in the future and 'the times of the Gentiles' has not yet started -- at which point it does start - many Jews will be slaughtered and others 'led away captive into all nations'...

So -- which is it?

:)
 
P

PlainWord

Senior Member
#267
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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#267
GaryA said:
Luke 21:

[SUP]24[/SUP] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I believe this verse is telling us that the mark in time for what is being described in the first part of this verse ( before the colon ) - and the preceding verses - is AT or AFTER the beginning of 'the times of the Gentiles'.

So then -- either - these things described are in the past and we are now in 'the times of the Gentiles' ( or, it has already come and gone - and, 'the times of the Gentiles' is already fulfilled - and, Jerusalem is no longer being 'trodden down of the Gentiles' ) - or - these things described are in the future and 'the times of the Gentiles' has not yet started -- at which point it does start - many Jews will be slaughtered and others 'led away captive into all nations'...

So -- which is it?

:)
Click to expand...
Oh Jerusalem is still being trodden down by Gentiles. Take the Temple Mount for instance, Orthodox Jews aren't even allowed up there. The real trodding down hasn't even happened yet. It happens after the new temple is built and the AoD is set up and the two witnesses appear. I believe that is what Daniel and Jesus were discussing. See Rev 11:

1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

I believe this is when the Jews flee, when the AoD is set up as Jesus commanded them to flee. Notice it says to "leave out the court?" This is likely because the new Temple will be built beside the Mosque under a UN Sharing Arrangement that is part of the Peace Deal which will be reached with Israel. The Holy City and temple mount will be trodden with Gentiles for 42 months as the Jews flee into neighboring countries.

Something or someone will cause the Jews to flee Jerusalem/Judea.
 
P

PlainWord

Senior Member
#268
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#268
GaryA said:
So -- how much of the description in Daniel 11 is past, and how much of it is future...???

At what point / verse in Daniel 11 does it go from past to future...???

:)
Click to expand...
Let me get back to you on this. From Chapter 10 we have this:

14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come."

So I think everything after this is End Times. I have a video on this that I need to watch again as some of Chapter 11 has already happened in our life time.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#269
#269
OOPS!

GaryA said:
Luke 21:

[SUP]24[/SUP] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I believe this verse is telling us that the mark in time for what is being described in the first part of this verse ( before the colon ) - and the preceding verses - is AT or AFTER the beginning of 'the times of the Gentiles'.

So then -- either - these things described are in the past and we are now in 'the times of the Gentiles' ( or, it has already come and gone - and, 'the times of the Gentiles' is already fulfilled - and, Jerusalem is no longer being 'trodden down of the Gentiles' ) - or - these things described are in the future and 'the times of the Gentiles' has not yet started -- at which point it does start - many Jews will be slaughtered and others 'led away captive into all nations'...

So -- which is it?

:)
Click to expand...
I should have added:

While I believe it is true that this verse does not imply that "these things described" marks the beginning of 'the times of the Gentiles' ( which is why I said "AT or AFTER" ) -- I do believe that it does imply that "these things described" marks the beginning of 'Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles'.

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#271
#271
Re: OOPS!

GaryA said:
While I believe it is true that this verse does not imply that "these things described" marks the beginning of 'the times of the Gentiles' ( which is why I said "AT or AFTER" ) -- I do believe that it does imply that "these things described" marks the beginning of 'Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles'.
Click to expand...
"So --- if Jerusalem is currently being 'trodden down of the Gentiles'..." ;)

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#272
#272
PlainWord said:
Something or someone will cause the Jews to flee Jerusalem/Judea.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that you equate the above quoted statement with 'shall be led away captive into all nations'?

:)
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#273
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#273
GaryA said:
**** BUMP ****


One more time...


Does anyone actually have a real answer to this question? ( that matches all related biblical prophecy )

Is anyone actually willing to admit that they believe that this has already occurred in the past?

:)
Click to expand...
Scriptural reference? (book, chapter and verse(s))
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#274
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#274
Re: OOPS!

GaryA said:
"So --- if Jerusalem is currently being 'trodden down of the Gentiles'..." ;)

:)
Click to expand...
Not yet...

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Happens at the end.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Happens in two parts...

First part:

Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Hasn't occurred yet, but is near.

Then:

Mar 13:14 "So when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

There is only one "holy place" on earth and it is on the Temple Mount.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#275
#275
john832 said:
Scriptural reference? (book, chapter and verse(s))
Click to expand...
My scriptural reference is in the chart attached to this thread. Back up to post #263...

At the moment, I am trying to get other people to give me their thoughts on Luke 21:24...

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#276
#276
"Got to go --- be back later..."

:)
 
P

PlainWord

Senior Member
#278
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#278
GaryA said:
Okay
----

:)
Click to expand...
I will get back to you on this ASAP, promise. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are having problems with the idea that 6-8 million Jews in Israel can be uprooted and taken away "captive" in 42 months and then later returned?

Keep in mind that for the United States, from the day we entered WW2 from start to finish, Nazi Germany was defeated in 41 months. So a lot can happen in this time frame. Although apparently we can't build a health care web site that works in this time frame today, LOL.
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#279
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#279
PlainWord said:
I will get back to you on this ASAP, promise. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are having problems with the idea that 6-8 million Jews in Israel can be uprooted and taken away "captive" in 42 months and then later returned?

Keep in mind that for the United States, from the day we entered WW2 from start to finish, Nazi Germany was defeated in 41 months. So a lot can happen in this time frame. Although apparently we can't build a health care web site that works in this time frame today, LOL.
Click to expand...
First thing you need to do is figure out who Israel is. It is not Judah (the Jews). For starters, read II Kings 16:1-6 adn you find that Israel was at war with the Jews. Now you need to read Gen 48:16 and see whom Israel placed His name on. That is a beginning.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#280
#280
PlainWord said:
Although apparently we can't build a health care web site that works in this time frame today, LOL.
Click to expand...
If this represents a delay in the fomenting of the future health care debacle -- then, do you think - just maybe - that God's hand is in it? ;)

:)
 
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