study - Olivet Discourse

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GaryA

Guest
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are having problems with the idea that 6-8 million Jews in Israel can be uprooted and taken away "captive" in 42 months and then later returned?
No - not exactly...

I believe that the "sense and tense" of the wording of Luke 21:24 ( particularly the last half ) is such that it is describing a longer period of time rather than a shorter one.

I believe that the "sense and tense" of the previous verses in that passage - as well as the Matthew and Mark companion verses - ( i.e., ROW 16 in the chart ) is such that it is a better 'fit' for the past rather than for the future. A bit of common sense seems to beg the question:

"With all of the modern technology we have today, what good would it do anyone to flee into the surrounding mountains?"

Think about it...

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
OOPS!

At the word 'and' in verse 2, the time "focus" changes from present to future. ( from John's point of view )
Revelation 11:

[SUP]2[/SUP] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


At the word 'and' - after the colon...

:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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No - not exactly...

I believe that the "sense and tense" of the wording of Luke 21:24 ( particularly the last half ) is such that it is describing a longer period of time rather than a shorter one.

I believe that the "sense and tense" of the previous verses in that passage - as well as the Matthew and Mark companion verses - ( i.e., ROW 16 in the chart ) is such that it is a better 'fit' for the past rather than for the future. A bit of common sense seems to beg the question:

"With all of the modern technology we have today, what good would it do anyone to flee into the surrounding mountains?"

Think about it...

:)
Luke is decidedly different from the other two versions. First you have the story split between two chapters, 17 and 21. Then you have details in Luke not found in the other two accounts. There is a school of thought that says up through Luke 21:24 deals with AD 70 era events even though the same language is used in the other two accounts to describe future events. However verse 19 would seem to indicate a future event as we are told to wait for the real messiah and not believe in any false "Christ" who comes before the real messiah.

Jerusalem has been and continues to be trampled by the Gentiles as 2 million of Israel's 8 million people are not Israeli. Obviously when the AoD appears the trampling will kick into a higher gear. So, I am on the fence on this one. I don't like that Luke differs so much from the Mat and Mark accounts.

As for the "fleeing to mountains" if we take the symbolic meaning, "mountains" mean "nations" in Biblical symbolism. But note also that the warning to flee here is triggered by Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and not the Abomination of Desolation. This would imply to me a different trigger thus perhaps a different set of circumstances even though much of the text mirrors the other accounts. But it still could be the same as the AoD would cause the desolation that could coincide with being surrounded by armies.

Based on verses 8-11 if I had to bet, I would say it's future to us then verse 12 indicates going back in time. I think verses 12-20 go back in time before we are brought again to the future, IDK, this is a tough one.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Re: OOPS!

Revelation 11:

[SUP]2[/SUP] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


At the word 'and' - after the colon...

:)
To me this is future because John wrote this around AD 95 when the temple was already destroyed. I just saw something interesting. You cited the KJV.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I usually use the NKJV:

2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

See the difference?
 
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GaryA

Guest
Re: OOPS!

To me this is future because John wrote this around AD 95 when the temple was already destroyed. I just saw something interesting. You cited the KJV.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I usually use the NKJV:

2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

See the difference?
In the KJV, the word 'without' actually means the opposite of the word 'within' -- instead of the more modern definition of "not including"...

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
Luke is decidedly different from the other two versions. First you have the story split between two chapters, 17 and 21.
"No. I think not..." :rolleyes:

The Olivet Discourse does not include any part of Luke 17.

Some of the same "subject matter" -- Yes.

Same "story" split between them -- No.


And, I still say...:

~ These three accounts are of the same event - the same men asking the same questions -- the intent behind the questions cannot be different from one account to the next. In all three accounts, the men are still asking for a sign to "tip them off" that "the end is near" / "stuff is about to happen" - the wording may a little different from one account to another, but the intent is the same. ( One event. One group of men. One set of questions. One answer. Three separate accounts. )

Whatever was said and heard ( the complete discourse ) in one account is the same for the others. Some of the details recorded may be different for each account; nonetheless, it is still three different accounts of the one same event and discourse.


:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Re: OOPS!

In the KJV, the word 'without' actually means the opposite of the word 'within' -- instead of the more modern definition of "not including"...

:)
oh, that's good to know. I do think there will be a third temple. I'm willing to bet it will be part of this secret peace deal that John Kerry is working on. Israel will get to build its third temple next to the Mosque and in exchange, the Palestinians will get to become a nation. Many Arab nations will need to agree. If it happens, this will be the 7th peace accord!! Thus we could see Dan 9:27 coming true.

I read somewhere that the measurements for the third temple given in Ezekiel are 1/7th larger than the previous ones. I also saw a show the other day where the Temple Mount institute claims to be able to build it in 1 year from the word Go.

Man, things are getting really interesting Gary.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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"No. I think not..." :rolleyes:

The Olivet Discourse does not include any part of Luke 17.

Some of the same "subject matter" -- Yes.

Same "story" split between them -- No.


And, I still say...:





:)
I think that Luke 17 shows us that there were two separate lessons or events being taught. In Luke 17:20-21 Jesus was talking to one of the Pharisees. Then He speaks to the disciples from verse 21 to 37. Most of the same content is found in the other two Olivet accounts. I will compare Luke 17 to Mat 24 below. Luke in Blue, Matthew in Red.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo , here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold , he is in the desert; go not forth : behold , he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


35Two women shall be grinding together ; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The similarities are too many to say Luke 17 is different from Mat 24 and Mark 13. I have no idea why. Luke 17 also relates the story of Lot while the other accounts do not. If you take Luke 17 and 21 and put them together you get a more complete version that better parallels the other accounts.

This has always puzzled me. The order in which things are given in the Luke version differ somewhat too as you can see from the above. The Luke account tells us not to come down from the house top or field when the Son of Man appears while the other accounts relate this to when the Abomination of Desolation appears. It's almost like the 3 accounts are scrambled and we have to figure out how to put them in the correct order. Very Strange.
 
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GaryA

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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Just a friendly reminder...?

**** BUMP ****

:)
Hey Gary, sorry for long delay in getting back on this, been extremely busy of late plus it's play-off time, LOL. I will cut and paste in three segments from Bible Study Tools.com which is a resource I often use.

Daniel 11:

Verses 1-4 were past to Daniel.

1. The angel Gabriel lets Daniel know the good service he has done to the Jewish nation (v. 1): "In the first year of Darius the Mede, who destroyed Babylon and released the Jews out of that house of bondage, I stood a strength and fortress to him, that is, I was instrumental to protect him, and give him success in his ward, and, after he had conquered Babylon, to confirm him in his resolution to release the Jews,’’ which, it is likely, met with much opposition. Thus by the angel, and at the request of the watcher, the golden head was broken, and the axe laid to the root of the tree. Note, We must acknowledge the hand of God in the strengthening of those that are friends to the church for the service they are to do it, and confirming them in their good resolutions; herein he uses the ministry of angels more than we are aware of. And the many instances we have known of God’s care of his church formerly encourage us to depend upon him in further straits and difficulties. He foretels the reign of four Persian kings (v. 2): Now I will tell thee the truth, that is, the true meaning of the visions of the great image, and of the four beasts, and expound in plain terms what was before represented by dark types. (1.) There shall stand up three kings in Persia, besides Darius, in whose reign this prophecy is dated, ch. 9:1 . Mr. Broughton makes these three to be Cyrus, Artaxasta or Artaxerxes, called by the Greeks Cambyses, and Ahasuerus that married Esther, called Darius son of Hystaspes. To these three the Persians gave these attributes—Cyrus was a father, Cambyses a master, and Darius a hoarder up. So Herodotus. (2.) There shall be a fourth, far richer than they all, that is, Xerxes, of whose wealth the Greek authors take notice. By his strength (his vast army, consisting of 800,000 men at least) and his riches, with which he maintained and paid that vast army, he stirred up all against the realm of Greece. Xerxes’s expedition against Greece is famous in history, and the shameful defeat that he met with. He who when he went out was the terror of Greece in his return was the scorn of Greece. Daniel needed not to be told what disappointment he would meet with, for he was a hinderer of the building of the temple; but soon after, about thirty years after the first return from captivity, Darius, a young king, revived the building of the temple, owning the hand of God against his predecessors for hindering it, Ezra. 6:7 . He foretels Alexander’s conquests and the partition of his kingdom, v. 3. He is that mighty king that shall stand up against the kings of Persia, and he shall rule with great dominion, over many kingdoms, and with a despotic power, for he shall do according to his will, and undo likewise, which, by the law of the Medes and Persians, their kings could not. When Alexander, after he had conquered Asia, would be worshipped as a god, then this was fulfilled, that he shall do according to his will. That is God’s prerogative, but was his pretension. But (v. 4) his kingdom shall soon be broken, and divided into four parts, but not to his posterity, nor shall any of his successors reign according to his dominion; none of them shall have such large territories nor such an absolute power. His kingdom was plucked up for others besides those of his own family. Arideus, his brother, was made king in Macedonia; Olympias, Alexander’s mother, killed him, and poisoned Alexander’s two sons, Hercules and Alexander. Thus was his family rooted out by its own hands. See what decaying perishing things worldly pomp and possessions are, and the powers by which they are got. Never was the vanity of the world and its greatest things shown more evidently than in the story of Alexander. All is vanity and vexation of spirit.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Daniel 11:

Verses 5-20 were future to Daniel but past to us.

The rise and power of two great kingdoms out of the remains of Alexander’s conquests, v. 5. The kingdom of Egypt, which was made considerable by Ptolemaeus Lagus, one of Alexander’s captains, whose successors were, from him, called the Lagidae. He is called the king of the south, that is, Egypt, named here, v. 8, v. 42, v. 43. The countries that at first belonged to Ptolemy are reckoned to be Egypt, Phoenicia, Arabia, Libya, Ethiopia, etc. Theocr. Idyl. 17. The kingdom of Syria, which was set up by Seleucus Nicanor, or the conqueror; he was one of Alexander’s princes, and became stronger than the other, and had the greatest dominion of all, was the most powerful of all Alexander’s successors. It was said that he had no fewer than seven-two kingdoms under him. Both these were strong against Judah (the affairs of which are particularly eyed in this prediction); Ptolemy, soon after he gained Egypt, invaded Judea, and took Jerusalem on a sabbath, pretending a friendly visit. Seleucus also gave disturbance to Judea.II. The fruitless attempt to unite these two kingdoms as iron and clay in Nebuchadnezzar’s image (v. 6): "At the end of certain years, about seventy after Alexander’s death, the Lagidae and the Seleucidae shall associate, but not in sincerity. Ptolemy Philadelphus, king of Egypt, shall marry his daughter Berenice to Antiochus Theos, king of Syria,’’ who had already a wife called Laodice. "Berenice shall come to the king of the north, to make an agreement, but it shall not hold: She shall not retain the power of the arm; neither she nor her posterity shall establish themselves in the kingdom of the north, neither shall Ptolemy her father, nor Antiochus her husband (between whom there was to be a great alliance), stand, nor their arm, but she shall be given up and those that brought her,’’ all that projected that unhappy marriage between her and Antiochus, which occasioned so much mischief, instead of producing a coalition between the northern and southern crowns, as was hoped. Antiochus divorced Berenice, took his former wife Laodice again, who soon after poisoned him, procured Berenice and her son to be murdered, and set up her own son by Antiochus to be king, who was called Seleucus Callinicus. III. A war between the two kingdoms, v. 7, v. 8. A branch from the same root with Berenice shall stand up in his estate. Ptolemaeus Euergetes, the son and successor of Ptolemaeus Philadelphus, shall come with an army against Seleucus Callinicus, king of Syria, to avenge his sister’s quarrel, and shall prevail; and he shall carry away a rich booty both of persons and goods into Egypt, and shall continue more years than the king of the north. This Ptolemy reigned forty-six years; and Justin says that if his own affairs had not called him home he would, in this war, have made himself master of the whole kingdom of Syria. But (v. 9) he shall be forced to come into his kingdom and return into his own land, to keep peace there, so that he can no longer carry on the war abroad. Note, It is very common for a treacherous peace to end in a bloody war.IV. The long and busy reign of Antiochus the Great, king of Syria. Seleucus Callinicus, that king of the north that was overcome (v. 7) and died miserably, left two sons, Seleucus and Antiochus; these are his sons, the sons of the king of the north, that shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces, to recover what their father had lost, v. 10. But Seleucus the elder, being weak, and unable to rule his army, was poisoned by his friends, and reigned only two years; and his brother Antiochus succeeded him, who reigned thirty-seven years, and was called the Great. And therefore the angel, though he speaks of sons at first, goes on with the account of one only, who was but fifteen years old when he began to reign, and he shall certainly come, and overflow, and over-run, and shall be restored at length to what his father lost. 1. The king of the south, in this war, shall at first have very great success. Ptolemaeus Philopater, moved with indignation at the indignities done by Antiochus the Great, shall (though otherwise a slothful prince) come forth, and fight with him, and shall bring a vast army into the field of 70,000 foot, and 5000 horse, and seventy-three elephants. And the other multitude (the army of Antiochus, consisting of 62,000 foot, and 6000 horse, and 102 elephants) shall be given into his hand. Polybius, who lived with Scipio, has given a particular account of this battle of Raphia. Ptolemaeus Philopater, having gained this victory, grew very insolent; his heart was lifted up; then he went into the temple of God at Jerusalem, and, in defiance of the law, entered the most holy place, for which God has a controversy with him, so that, though he shall cast down many myriads, yet he shall not be strengthened by it, so as to secure his interest. For, 2. The king of the north, Antiochus the Great, shall return with a greater army than the former; and, at the end of times (that is, years) he shall come with a mighty army, and great riches, against the king of the south, that is, Ptolemaeus Epiphanes, who succeeded Ptolemaeus Philopater his father, when he was a child, which gave advantage to Antiochus the Great. In this expedition he had some powerful allies (v. 14): Many shall stand up against the king of the south. Philip of Macedon was confederate with Antiochus against the king of Egypt, and Scopas his general, whom he sent into Syria; Antiochus routed him, destroyed a great part of his army; whereupon the Jews willingly yielded to Antiochus, joined with him, helped him to besiege Ptolemaeus’s garrisons. They the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision, to help forward the accomplishment of this prophecy; but they shall fall, and shall come to nothing, v. 14. Hereupon (v. 15) the king of the north, this same Antiochus Magnus, shall carry on his design against the king of the south another way. (1.) He shall surprise his strong-holds; all that he has got in Syria and Samaria, and the arms of the south, all the power of the king of Egypt, shall not be able to withstand him. See how dubious and variable the turns of the scale of war are; like buying and selling, it is winning and losing; sometimes one side gets the better and sometimes the other; yet neither by chance; it is not, as they call it, the fortune of war, but according to the will and counsel of God, who brings some low and raises others up. (2.) He shall make himself master of the land of Judea (v. 16): He that comes against him (that is, the king of the north) shall carry all before him and do what he pleases, and he shall stand and get footing in the glorious land; so the land of Israel was, and by his hand it was wasted and consumed, for with the spoil of that good land he victualled his vast army. The land of Judea lay between these two potent kingdoms of Egypt and Syria, so that in all the struggles between them that was sure to suffer, for to it they both bore ill will. Yet some read this, By his hand it shall be perfected; as if it intimated that the land of Judea, being taken under the protection of this Antiochus, shall flourish, and be in better condition than it had been. (3.) He shall still push on his war against the king of Egypt, and set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, taking advantage of the infancy of Ptolemy Epiphanes, and the upright ones, many of the pious Israelites, siding with him, v. 17. In prosecution of his design, he shall give him his daughter Cleopatra to wife, designing, as Saul in giving his daughter Cleopatra to David, that she should be a snare to him, and do him a mischief; but she shall not stand on her father’s side, nor be for him, but for her husband, and so that plot failed him. (4.) His war with the Romans is here foretold (v. 18): He shall turn his face to the isles (v. 18), the isles of the Gentiles (Gen. 10:5 ), Greece and Italy. He took many of the isles about the Hellespont-Rhodes, Samos, Delos, etc., which by war or treaty he made himself master of; but a prince, or state (so some), even the Roman senate, or a leader, even the Roman general, shall return his reproach with which he abused the Romans upon himself, or shall make his shame rest on himself, and without his own shame, or any disgrace to himself, shall pay him again. This was fulfilled when the two Scipios were sent with an army against Antiochus. Hannibal was then with him, and advised him to invade Italy and waste it as he had done; but he did not take hid advice; and Scipio joined battle with him, and gave him a total defeat, though Antiochus had 70,000 men and the Romans but 30,000. Thus he caused the reproach offered by him to cease. (5.) His fall. When he was totally routed by the Romans, and was forced to abandon to them all he had in Europe, and had a very heavy tribute exacted from him, he turned to his own land, and, not knowing which way to raise money to pay his tribute, he plundered a temple of Jupiter, which so incensed his own subjects against him that they set upon him, and killed him; so he was overthrown, and fell, and was no more found, v. 19. (6.) His next successor, v. 20. There rose up one in his place, a raiser of taxes, a sender forth of the extortioner, or extorter. This character was remarkably answered in Seleucus Philopater, the elder son of Antiochus the Great, who was a great oppressor of his own subjects, and exacted abundance of money from them; and, when he was told he would thereby lose his friends, he said he knew no better friend he had then money. He likewise attempted to rob the temple at Jerusalem, which this seems especially to refer to. But within a few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger nor in battle, but poisoned by Heliodorus, one of his own servants, when he had reigned but twelve years, and done nothing remarkable.V. From all this let us learn, 1. That God in his providence sets up one, and pulls down another, as he pleases, advances some from low beginnings and depresses others that were very high. Some have called great men the foot-balls of fortune; or, rather, they are the tools of Providence. 2. This world is full of wars and fightings, which come from men’s lusts, and make it a theatre of sin and misery. 3. All the changes and revolutions of states and kingdoms, and every event, even the most minute and contingent, were plainly and perfectly foreseen by the God of heaven, and to him nothing is new. 4. No word of God shall fall to the ground; but what he has designed, what he has declared, shall infallibly come to pass; and even the sins of men shall be made to serve his purpose, and contribute to the b ringing of his counsels to birth in their season; and yet God is not the author of sin. 5. That, for the right understanding of some parts of scripture, it is necessary that heathen authors be consulted, which give light to the scripture, and show the accomplishment of what is there foretold; we have therefore reason to bless God for the human learning with which many have done great service to divine truths.
 
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GaryA

Guest
I will cut and paste in three segments from Bible Study Tools.com which is a resource I often use.
three segments ??? :confused:

"That's not 'cut and paste' --- that's 'cut and paste-without-formatting'..." :p

I think you would have done just as well ( better, actually ) if you had simply posted a link... ;)

:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Gary,

I think I have a major wrench to throw in the works. I believe the Tribulation is over by the 6th seal and Christ returns probably at the 7th seal, although it is not clearly stated. I believe the trumpets and bowls all deal with the end of the world era. I believe firmly that for sure Trumpet 5-7 are end of the world.

Consider Rev 20:1-3

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; [SUP]3 [/SUP]and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Satan is bound, chained up in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years - Correct? An Angel having "The Key to the Bottomless Pit" chains Satan, right? After the 1,000 years are over, Satan is set free to deceive again - correct? Do we have a passage that discusses Satan being set free?? I believe we do.

Rev 9:

Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.


So an angel chains Satan in the Bottomless Pit and locks the pit with a key. Now we see same or another angel with the same key opening the Bottomless Pit. We see that Satan is the Angel of the Bottomless Pit. So, this is Satan being released AFTER the 1,000 years are up!!

Now, what does Satan do once he is released? He kills the 2 witnesses.

Rev 11:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Satan isn't in the Bottomless Pit until after Christ returns and the Angel chains him up there and locks him up there. Satan stays there until the 5th trumpet. Satan then comes up and kills the witnesses. So, the witnesses are not in Jerusalem at the same time as the Man of Sin, they come 1,000 years later before the end of the world.

This means that the 6th Trumpet is Armageddon. This means that the 7th trumpet isn't the return of Christ, but rather the return of God, the Father. With this in mind, look at the description of the 7th trumpet.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdomsof this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

When are the dead judged?? At the end, at the Great White Throne. Who reigns forever and ever? the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. Christ reigns 1,000 years then turns the kingdom over to the Father 1 Cor 15:24-28. Jesus makes no mention of coming with a great army in Mat 24. He comes with great glory, but no army. Rev 1:7 doesn't mention an army either. You need an army for a war. So who comes to make war? GOD the Father.

Therefore Rev 19 is not discussing Christ, it is discussing GOD THE FATHER. Who is KING OF KINGS and LORD of LORDS???

It is God the Father with a name that nobody knows but him just as it is God the Father as the only one who knows when He is returning. It is God the Father with a robe dipped in the blood of His Son. Satan comes claiming to be God, thus God himself defeats Satan. It is God's supper that comes after Armageddon.

“Come and gather together for the supper of the great God."

If you were John, Paul or Peter, do you discuss more about the end of the play or the end of the first act? The Tribulation and return of Christ are big events to be sure, but they are big to us because we perhaps live in those days. But in terms of the over all picture, which time frame is bigger? The end of the world, right?