study - Order Of Events

GRA · Aug 16, 2013

NOPE.

Christ Himself "pours out" all 7...

Revelation 14:

[SUP]14[/SUP] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [SUP]15[/SUP] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [SUP]16[/SUP] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. [SUP]17[/SUP] And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. [SUP]18[/SUP] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [SUP]20[/SUP] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

14-16 => 'RAPTURE'; 17-20 => 'WRATH'

Revelation 19:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [SUP]12[/SUP] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [SUP]13[/SUP] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [SUP]16[/SUP] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

PlainWord · Aug 16, 2013

Rev 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."

How can you say Christ is pouring out the bowls when Chapter 16 clearly has 7 angels pouring out the 7 bowls of GOD'S wrath?

2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

3 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire.

10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.

12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

Notice where the first 6 angels poured their bowls out:

1. Earth
2. Sea
3. Rivers and Springs
4. Sun
5. Throne of Beast
6. Euphrates

Now look at the 7th angel and Bowl. Look at the description of the 7th Bowl. We are then going back to Chapter 11 to compare:

17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"

18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings

; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

Look at what happens with the 7th trumpet - Rev 11:

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were

lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Do you see that we have the same 5 things mentioned from the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl?

lightnings
noises
thunderings
earthquake
hail

Therefore the 7th Bowl is part of the 7th trumpet and this is when the Lord actually returns. The passage from Rev 14 and 19 - the sickle and winepress are describing the same event - The Lord returning for Armageddon. Let's compare these two passage with Joel.

Rev 14:

[SUP]19[/SUP] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 19:

[SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Joel 3:

13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow-- For their wickedness is great."

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness.
Now see from Matthew 24 when the Lord comes:

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Rev 1:7

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

PlainWord · Aug 16, 2013

The 7th trumpet takes place over a period of time, much as you say the trumpets are contained within the 6th seal, I am saying the 7 bowls are all contained within the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is a series of events. The Lord actually comes back to earth at the 7th Bowl which is at the tail end of the 7th trumpet.

The Day of the Lord lasts 1,000 years. He is not going to "fix things" in one day. The Day of the Lord starts with the first sounding of the 7th trumpet but this trumpet goes on for weeks or months. The 7th trumpet is over at the 7th bowl when Christ returns. I believe the whole world will hear this trumpet. I believe, and we know, that the whole world will hear the proclamation of the three angels BEFORE the Lord comes.

Rev 14:

6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people--

7 saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

We know the Lord is "long suffering not wishing that anyone should perish." Therefore I think the Lord "drags out" his return giving everyone a full chance to come and accept him. When He finally does come, it is as a thief in the night but for those who are watching (like us), it won't be.

GRA · Aug 18, 2013

PlainWord said:

"Because I understand the symbolism..."

GRA · Aug 18, 2013

Lighter Red => reference to the Father
Darker Red => reference to the Son

PlainWord:

Do you understand, from the above verses, that Jesus "dishes out" the Wrath of God?

Do you see how that - Jesus will rule & reign - while He still yet has enemies?

Jesus Himself kills many after He arrives -- how does this affect your understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:26 ???

Is "a more full understanding" of the above verses - that agrees with all of scripture - in order?

GRA · Aug 19, 2013

PlainWord:

Do you understand the difference between "destoying an enemy" ( "putting out of existance" ) and "putting an enemy under his feet" ("putting under total submission") ?

How can something that is non-existent be under his feet?

Perhaps it might be first put under his feet - and then be made non-existent later?

When you read 1 Corinthians 15:26 - do you assume that "put under his feet" means the same as 'destroyed'?

Have you thought about the fact that 'death' is not "destroyed" - until after the 1000-year Reign of Christ? - [ even ] until the Great White Throne Judgment? -- virtually until the new heaven and earth...?

The Father did not tell the Son - "Sit thou at my right hand until I annihilate your enemies" - He said - "Sit thou at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet" --- there is a difference...

Please stare at 1 Corinthians 15:25 for a while --- what does it mean to you?

Can Jesus reign for 1000 years while still "seated" at the right of the Father?

What is Daniel 7:13-14 saying? Where is this taking place?

PlainWord · Aug 19, 2013

GRA,

While I study your replies, how do you account for Jesus coming with His army in Rev 19 which sure appears to be for war at Armageddon? Does He come down to Zion and hang out and pour out the bowls while He waits for the Beast to gather his armies? If so then you would have the Beast and Christ in competition for souls operating in the same theater (greater Jerusalem) for a period of time. Which is fine...

Also how do you account for the same 5 events mentioned at the 7th trumpet being the same 5 events of the 7th bowl?

And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Are you rejecting the idea that the 7 Bowls are part of the 7th trumpet? Keep in mind, we don't see Jesus returning at the 7th trumpet description in Rev 11.

I can accept that your argument on the surface that it is Christ who is kicking butt and I really like your argument that being a footstool doesn't mean being killed. I like that a lot. But under this same argument, Jesus' enemies could be submissive to Him while He is still in heaven, which is what I am saying.

We both agree the 7th trumpet is the game changer. It is when Christ declares His kingdom. I'm just caught up on the 7 Bowls being part of a longer period 7th trumpet based on the same 5 events and that it appears Jesus is saying he is returning for Armageddon in Luke 17:37, Mat 24:28 and the descriptions of Rev 19.

jb · Aug 19, 2013

GRA said:

LOL.......................................!

PlainWord · Aug 19, 2013

GRA, this to me means that Christ will reign 1,000 years until He has defeated all His enemies. I think he scores a big victory in Jerusalem and defeats the Beast/AC right off the bat, soon after he returns. The Bowls soften up the enemy then they are wiped out at Armageddon. Satan is captured and chained for 1,000 years. Jesus utterly destroys the forces of all those countries that come against his people. He may even go destroy the homeland of those counties as implied by Mat 25. These goat nations could be wiped off the map. However, there will clearly be some nations who didn't fight against His people who he doesn't destroy (Egypt for one) who Jesus has to continue to rule with a rod of iron and punish if they don't keep his commandments. Zech 14:16-19.

The last enemy defeated is death. When is death defeated? At the end of the millennial age when Jesus turns the kingdom over to the Father. We then have the Great White Throne and the new heavens and earth. The wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire while those written in the Book of Life enter the new heaven.

Does this jive with your thinking on this?

PlainWord · Aug 19, 2013

I'll be honest, Daniel is not a specialty. LOL.

PlainWord · Aug 20, 2013

GRA,

I have had time to digest your response and I'm now prepared to prove my point concerning the 7th trumpet encompassing the 7 Bowls AND that Jesus doesn't actually return to earth until the 7th Bowl, not the start of the 7th trumpet but still during the 7th trumpet, at the final blast. I'm going to concede the point about the footstool for now. But I am not conceding that it is Christ pouring out the bowls, because it is 7 angels doing the pouring (Rev 16:1) and they finish before Christ returns. Are you ready to go back to the drawing board, LOL

??? I think you are going to like this.

1. The same 5 events, apply to the 7th trumpet "And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail" (Rev 11:19) and the 7th bowl "And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth." "And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent (130 lbs). Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great." (Rev 16:18, 21). Notice that in both cases we have "GREAT HAIL."

2. Look at the events just prior to the Lord returning. (Zech 14:1-4)

"1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Notice that "the Day of the Lord is coming," it hasn't arrived yet. Notice that He is gathering the nations to battle against Jerusalem? When do we see that? At the 6th Bowl. Notice then the Lord is here battling. How? Because he comes at the 7th bowl. Notice that in that day the Mount of Olives shall be split in two. How does that happen? How about a great earthquake? We learn from the 7th Bowl that "the great city (Jerusalem) is divided in three parts" from the great earthquake of the 7th Bowl (Rev 16:19). Is this the same earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives in two? I think so. The Mount of Olives is right next to Jerusalem.

3). I want you to really study the scene from the 6th Bowl, which I contend happens right before Jesus returns (Rev 16)

12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Focus on verse 15. Notice I AM COMING AS A THIEF. This sure seems to apply he isn't already here. This scene I believe agrees perfectly with Zech 14. The reference to "Thief" ties to multiple places in the scripture. If he was already on Mt. Zion all this time pouring out the bowls, you can't say Jesus then showing up to the battlefield would be "coming as a thief."

4). We know that the Beast and His kingdom are still around through the 7 Bowls, because it is against the Beast and his kingdom that they are poured against. Why is the Beast still around if the Day of the Lord was at the start of the 7th Trumpet?

5). If the Lord returned at the start of the 7th trump and not at the 7th bowl, where do the dead in Christ go after the 7th trump? If the "gathering" and "changing in the twinkling of an eye" already happened, do these dead suddenly arise like zombies? They can't go to heaven if Jesus is on earth or that would violate the "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." We know from Rev 14:13 that there will be more who die in the Lord AFTER he appears on Mt. Zion with the 144K (Rev 14:1)

But GRA, it is entirely possible that the 7 Bowls are poured out in one literal earth day. If that is the case, then we could be talking semantics here.

Rev 18:

8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day--death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

PlainWord · Aug 20, 2013

One more point from 2 Thes 2:

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

If the lawless one is destroyed at the 7th trumpet then who are the bowls being poured out against?

______________________________________________________________________________________

Another cool thing I learned unrelated to this. Look back a couple of verses:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Pre-Tribbers always say it is the Holy Spirit doing the restraining. Therefore the Church must be raptured so that the Holy Spirit will leave with us thus no longer restraining the Lawless one. But it isn't the Holy Spirit doing the restraining. It is Michael the Arch Angel. Look at Rev 12:

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

PlainWord · Aug 20, 2013

Sorry for all the posts, I feeling like I'm on a roll.

There is another possibility. That all the bowls are poured out at the end of the 6th trumpet just before the 7th trumpet. This idea works.

I think the beast appears at the 5th or 6th trumpet. So defeating him and punishing him has to happen before the conclusion of the 7th trumpet. There can't be punishments after the beast is defeated. Christ defeats the Beast when he returns so if the bowls are part of or follow the 6th trumpet, this works.

I think I understand what one of the bowls are vials is, the third one:

4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying: "You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was and who is to be, Because You have judged these things.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due."

7 And I heard another from the altar saying, "Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."

What are these waters? Turn to Chapter 17:

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

15 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

So it appears these "waters" are not turning to blood. It is the unbeliever, who tortured and killed the saints getting their punishment. These waters are rivers and springs - drinkable water - unlike the sea from the 2nd bowl. There was no angel of the sea going on a long dissertation after his bowl was poured.

GRA · Aug 22, 2013

Please read this post...

PlainWord · Aug 24, 2013

GRA said:

I don't have a problem with anything you said in the post you sent me to. I do think Revelation is written a lot like a parable. It contains both literal and spiritual meanings.

Consider this, you have both literal and imagery here much as in Rev.

Mat 24:

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

The moon is symbolic of Satan. Lunar = Lunatic. 42 months is the amount of time the Anti Christ will rule. Days are of God, 1260 days the 2 witnesses will prophesy.

The person on the house top is the watchman. When he sees the Abomination in the holy place he is to flee.

"Woe to the pregnant and those nursing in those days" has nothing to do with women who are literally pregnant although I'm sure it will be harder on them. When Christ returns, he expect to see His faithful, those who are virgins spiritually, like the 144,000. The Great Harlot is the false religion - we know that. "Those who are pregnant" symbolize those who have been following false religions and doctrines, they are pregnant with the lies of the Beast - so Woe to them when Christ returns!!!

"Flight in Winter" has a literal and figurative meaning. You don't want to be harvested out of season - winter. You want to be in season - Wheat and Tares. Gather the wheat when fully harvested.

The 2 witnesses, NOT JESUS, pour out the Bowls of Wrath on the Beast's kingdom, at least the first 4 or 5 bowls. At first I was going with the 7 angels but look at what the witnesses are able to do:

3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Compare to the Bowls:

1. a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast.
2. on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.
3. on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.
4. on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire.
5. his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.
6. river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared

I want you to notice another piece of symbolism. What are the worst of the Seals, trumpets and Bowls?

6th Seal:

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

6th Trumpet:

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

6th Bowl:

12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The worst of each is of Satan 6 - 6 - 6.

Then the 7th of each if of God. 7 symbolizes completeness. The Beast appears at the 6th Trumpet. The first 6 Bowls are poured out on him.

GRA · Oct 25, 2013

GRA said:

I really appreciate seeing someone write this...

My initial idea for all three of my 'study' threads was to "present the study" in a step-by-step explanatory method - how I arrived at the conclusions that I had in these studies. Until I could find / make the time to do so - I thought it might be useful to let everyone view the 'charts' that I had made for each -- so that people could have a "pre-view"...

Well -- between not seeming to be able to do such -- and, because people did not seem to REALLY be interested in trying to understand it from my perspective -- I got very discouraged, and essentially "gave up on it"... ( the "present the study" part )

It has become very difficult to convince myself that I should spend so much time and energy - that I don't really have that much of - trying to explain . . . if all they want to do is "trash-talk" it...

I believe that the 'seals' have "unfolded slowly" over the past ~2000 years even to this time and continuing until the Second Coming of Christ.

I believe that the 'trumpets' will "unfold" in a considerally shorter period of time - no less than 3.5 years, but could be a bit longer.

I believe that the 'vials' will "unfold" in a very short period of time - hours to days - at the Second Coming of Christ.

GRA said:

..........

Married_Richenbrachen · Oct 25, 2013

GRA said:

I am grateful for your efforts GRA, and your views and chart certainly gave me something to think about. I like how your view doesn't seem to over-spiritualise things like the sun/moon/stars being darkened etc., but still accepts the logical conclusion that Daniel's 70 weeks are long over. I am tending to believe that we are possibly still in the Great Tribulation, although I'm finding this unsatisfying (so perhaps this is not 100% correct, also).

After spending some time to try to understand Revelation, I became frustrated and overwhelmed, so have given up for the present. When I reconsider in future, your thoughts and chart will come to mind again. Thank you.

GRA · Oct 27, 2013

Married_Richenbrachen said:

"I just say it like I see it..."

( "I believe that the truth actually lies somewhere between the extremes." )

The Bible is very clear about when it begins and when it ends -- start with that...

When you return -- may I suggest you start again with post #2 in this thread? - keeping in mind what is highlighted in bold blue in the quote below...

GRA said:

Thank You --- I need all of the encouragement I can get...

GaryA · Dec 16, 2013

For what it is worth, I have the chart for this 'study' back on a directly-accessible web page:

Order Of Events chart

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study - Order Of Events

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