Sure to Make a Big Splash!

[SomeDisciple]

John was sent to baptize before he even knew Jesus was the promised messiah. (John 1:26-33)

I don't think John 1:26-33 demonstrate that John did not know, rather, it is him saying his audience did not know. John's mother and father knew before John and Jesus were even born- and when John saw Jesus coming to him he recognized Jesus as the Lamb right away.
But that's not really relevant- I agree that John didn't baptize in Jesus' name; that much is clear to me. What has not been clear to me is whether or not Jesus' disciples baptized in Jesus' name during his ministry. His disciples were at least casting out demons in his name. It just seems strange to me that they would not baptize in his name- they were baptizing... was it just the same as John's baptism? And if it was the same- why did this happen?

Then a debate arose among the disciples of John with a certain Jew about purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have borne witness, behold He baptizes, and all are coming to Him.”

Now, I know a lot of people insist on the KJ, but I think the Berean literal translation gives context that makes a lot more sense to me. John (the author of the Gospel- not "the baptist") is refering to himself (admittedly a speculation, but a sensible one- John refers to himself in the third person more than once.) when he says "a certain Jew". That's why the next verse is talking about Jesus' ministry- because the Baptist's disciples were arguing with John about how to baptize.

Indeed, Luke 24 says

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

But I don't think it means that it repentance and remission of sins were preached in his name for the first time in Jerusalem. I think Jesus is telling his disciples how they are going to proceed- preach to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem- and that will fulfill what was written (the "word of the lord going out from Jerusalem"-which does not necessarily mean it originated there for the first time).

 

[Wansvic]

I don't think John 1:26-33 demonstrate that John did not know, rather, it is him saying his audience did not know. John's mother and father knew before John and Jesus were even born- and when John saw Jesus coming to him he recognized Jesus as the Lamb right away...

I believe the account in John occurred after Jesus' actual baptism. (Matthew 3:13-17) John the Baptist makes the comment that he did not know Jesus was the messiah in both verses 31 and 33. I find the following commentary compelling as to why John would have made those statements:

John 1:33,34
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

[The same said ...] This was the sign by which he was to know the Messiah. He was to see the Spirit descending like a dove and abiding on him. It does not follow, however, that he had no intimation before this that Jesus was the Christ, but it means that by this he should know it infallibly. From Matt 3:13-14, it seems that John supposed, before the baptism of Jesus, that he CLAIMED to be the Messiah, and, that he believed it; but the infallible, certain testimony in the case was the descent of the Holy Spirit on him at his baptism.

[That this is the Son of God] This was distinctly declared by a voice from heaven at his baptism, Matt 3:17. This John heard, and he testified that he had heard it.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

...I agree that John didn't baptize in Jesus' name; that much is clear to me. What has not been clear to me is whether or not Jesus' disciples baptized in Jesus' name during his ministry. His disciples were at least casting out demons in his name. It just seems strange to me that they would not baptize in his name- they were baptizing... was it just the same as John's baptism? And if it was the same- why did this happen?
...

John's baptism was begun to prepare Jewish people for the coming of Jesus; the NT church was not yet founded. The Old Testament sacrificial system was still in force for remitting sin. John's baptism pointed to the future Christian baptism that would rely upon Jesus' sacrifice to remit sin. See Acts 2:38 and Romans 6:4-6.

Also, as seen in Acts 19:1-6 Paul rebaptized people in the name of the Lord Jesus.

...
Then a debate arose among the disciples of John with a certain Jew about purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have borne witness, behold He baptizes, and all are coming to Him.”

Now, I know a lot of people insist on the KJ, but I think the Berean literal translation gives context that makes a lot more sense to me. John (the author of the Gospel- not "the baptist") is refering to himself (admittedly a speculation, but a sensible one- John refers to himself in the third person more than once.) when he says "a certain Jew". That's why the next verse is talking about Jesus' ministry- because the Baptist's disciples were arguing with John about how to baptize...

I have to disagree since verses 27-30 show that it is John the Baptist speaking. The exchange would seem to emphasize that who was administering water baptism was of no particular significance.(verse 27)

Also relevant is Jesus was present during baptisms but did not water baptize anyone Himself. (John 4:1-2)

John 3:23-30

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
KJV

...Indeed, Luke 24 says

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

But I don't think it means that it repentance and remission of sins were preached in his name for the first time in Jerusalem. I think Jesus is telling his disciples how they are going to proceed- preach to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem- and that will fulfill what was written (the "word of the lord going out from Jerusalem"-which does not necessarily mean it originated there for the first time).

Notice Jesus makes mention of His death, burial and resurrection and goes on to say that repentance and remission of sins would be preached in His name beginning at Jerusalem. It is on the condition of Jesus sacrifice that sins are remitted through water baptism in His name. (Acts 2:38, 22:16) Also it is in water baptism that a person is buried with Jesus into His death according to Romans 6:4-6:

Rom 6:4-6
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

 

[Pilgrimshope]

John the Baptist had a mission. He was to proclaim the exciting news of the soon coming arrival of the messiah depicted in the OT scriptures. In addition, his mission included the introduction of the baptism of repentance for remission of sin. (Mark 1:1-4, Luke 3:3, Luke 7:27)

Upon hearing John’s message, “… there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:5) Jesus Himself complied with the command and was immersed in the waters of baptism even though He was sinless. Jesus had told John to water baptize Him in order to fulfill all righteousness. (Matt 3:15-17) Those who refused to believe baptism was necessary were accused of rejecting the very counsel of God. (Luke 7:30)

If is important to realize that Jesus was present and did not object to His disciples preaching the need for water baptism and administering it to those wishing to be obedient. (John 3:22, John 4:1-2)

As recorded at the end of each gospel, (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) Jesus makes reference to water baptism:

• Matthew - Jesus says to baptize in a singular name.
• Mark - Jesus says in order to be saved one must believe and be baptized.
• Luke - Jesus tells His disciples that repentance and remission of sin (a reference to water baptism as established by John the Baptist) would be preached in His name and it will begin in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47)
• John – Jesus tells Peter to feed His lambs, and feed His sheep. His reference to feeding sheep is made twice. Peter did exactly that. He initially presented the salvation plan to the Jewish (sheep) and Gentile (lambs) nations, and assisted in the Samaritans (half Jew-half Gentile) conversion. (sheep)

After Jesus ascended into Heaven, the Holy Ghost was poured out upon 120 people in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. And, just as Jesus previously stated in Luke 24:47, the Apostle Peter gave specific instructions pertaining to water baptism. Those wishing to submit to water baptism would be required to do so in the name of the Lord Jesus. The water baptism initially introduced by John the Baptist was still necessary; however, it was modified to include the use of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE PRIOR TO THE INFILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST NO ONE HAD BEEN WATER BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS.

There is a misconception that the Jewish and Gentile experiences differed in that God filled the Gentiles with His Spirit prior to them being water baptized. (Acts 10:44-48) The truth is both the Jewish and Gentile people received the Holy Ghost prior to taking on the name of the Lord Jesus in their water baptism.

Lastly, it should be noted that the sequence of one’s compliance to the NT instructions is not what matters. All that matters is obedience to the entire message. This is seen in the conversion experience of the Samaritans. (Acts 8:12-17) And, Paul’s exchange with the Ephesus disciples. (Acts 19:2-6)

good post to consider

have you noticed that John actually was preaching faith in jesus also before jesus had even came forth ? His name wasn’t known yet but John was already telling them they had to believe on the one who came after him .

another really interesting fact about John is that he fulfilled this

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we understand only because Jesus explained it when asked about it

Immediately after Jesus is transfigured and shows himself to three disciples they ask now that they have seen him “ why do the scriptures say Elijah must come first ?” Referencing the end of the prophets there in Malachi

“And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the curse of the Old Testament came because the people refused to hear johns call to repentance and faith in Christ.

“he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”

They beheaded him and rejected and crucified Christ.

the prophecy of johns birth also confirms that he is the Elijah who was to come

“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:13, 15-17‬ ‭

I find it interesting how the ot always foretells and shows the nt in figures like this

“And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.”
‭‭2 Kings‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the figures serve to concrete what the word says it seems like every time

 

[Wansvic]

good post to consider

have you noticed that John actually was preaching faith in jesus also before jesus had even came forth ? His name wasn’t known yet but John was already telling them they had to believe on the one who came after him ...

Thank you for sharing that people did not know the name of the messiah when John's baptism was being administered. You make a really great point that confirms, yet again, what is presented elsewhere in scripture.

I knew John's baptism could not have included the use of Jesus' name because of Jesus' statement in Luke 24:47. In addition to that, in order to be baptized into Jesus' death was contingent upon His having died.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death in His name are being buried with Jesus." Romans 6:3-6.

 

[Wansvic]

@SomeDisciple I wanted to direct your attention to Post 63 and 64 just in case you don't follow all posts. Pilgrimshope makes some great points that may further your understanding in regards to the use of Jesus' name in water baptism.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you for sharing that people did not know the name of the messiah when John's baptism was being administered. You make a really great point that confirms, yet again, what is presented elsewhere in scripture.

I knew John's baptism could not have included the use of Jesus' name because of Jesus' statement in Luke 24:47. In addition to that, in order to be baptized into Jesus' death was contingent upon His having died.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death in His name are being buried with Jesus." Romans 6:3-6.

Thanks for the good response there . I would say they were baptized into his death because thier sins were remitted they had no understanding of what was happening but they came to get baptized because they believed the messiah was about to come forth

which they understood long before that the messiah would die for sin

“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-6, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

israel had been waiting for the messiah most were blind but the scripture had established the gospel long before he came

 

[Wansvic]

Thanks for the good response there . I would say they were baptized into his death because thier sins were remitted they had no understanding of what was happening but they came to get baptized because they believed the messiah was about to come forth

which they understood long before that the messiah would die for sin

“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-6, 10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

israel had been waiting for the messiah most were blind but the scripture had established the gospel long before he came

Consider that Paul would not have required men to be re-baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus if John's baptism was sufficient.

"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

What is interesting is John's baptism is referenced as a baptism of repentance. Indicating an introduction to what would later be modified to include the name of the Lord Jesus for the actual remission of sin. (Acts 2:38) The thought occurred to me today that Peter's message separated the two conditions; repentance and water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Any thoughts?