Talking against the law is dangerous

eternally-gratefull · Mar 30, 2014

Galatians 3:10 [ The Law Brings a Curse ] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

One must remember.

Every time you see the word command, DOES NOT MEAN levitical law. No matter how many times the LAWYERS try to force it into the interpretation

danschance · Mar 30, 2014

just-me said:

That is a plain silly answer. If God can not change then He can not change the law? That is a silly response. If God can't change then He can't become a man and die for our sins. See how silly that logic is? If God can't change then He can't create the universe because that is a change. Sorry but that makes no sense to me. Even the bible says God changed his mind, so clearly you don't understand what it means when God says He does not change.

Hebrews 7:12 states:
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

So clearly God has changed the law and this in no way states that God has changed.

ivanc0 · Mar 30, 2014

just-me said:

Originally Posted by chubbena

In fact, He replaces a heart of stone with a heart of flesh and the Holy Spirit moves one to follow His decrees and be careful to keep His laws. The way to put His law in one's heart has changed, not the law itself. First was for man to impress in the heart himself but man was not able to because of his sinful nature. Now is all God's work.
That's it!!! Well spoken my friend, Well spoken!

This is a nice metaphor, God in his plan decided to stop "fulfill" moses law, when the ultimate sacrifice, the sacrifice of his son has been consummated. as a sign the veil of the temple was tore!

Jesus established a higher set of rules (we I say this to pastors, they always say ... "then pay higher Tithings"), The apostles called this rules the Grace, it was very difficult for them to understand the law was fulfilled, this is way the Judaizers came into scene.

Paul wrote many of his letter to fight against the judaizer's gospel, in that context he writes his letters and says:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

or
Galatians 5:2-4

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[SUP][a][/SUP] by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Then I repeat "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace"

What sort of brain DO I have to have not to understand this words!

And then in a silly recourse try to quote the Old Testament, to refute this principle, "YOU CAN NOT REFUTE A NEW LAW WITH A LAW THAT HAS BEEN ABOLISHED" You just showing your great knowledge and poor undestanding... now you are the "DOCTORS OF THE LAW"

just-me · Mar 30, 2014

danschance said:

Jesus didn't come to change, or destroy the law, for He said so. This is now our High Priest.

Micah 5:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Hebrews mentions "a" change to the law (singular) The singular change was from the tribe of Levi to the tribe of Judah.

Jesus is the creator of all things, including the law. God repenting that He had ever made man doesn't mean He was going to regroup and try to think of another plan. He repented in likeness to being sorrowful, and yearned for man's repentance.

Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Romans 3:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Jesus didn't come and change the law. He came to change us.

Luke 4:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Galatians 3:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Are we going to believe in the true Christ if we don't acknowledge the law God gave to Moses? Speaking of logic.

1 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The change is the physical temple to the spiritual temple. The principles stay the same. It doesn't sound to me that the original Spiritual principles and statutes changed.

Carnal thoughts about the law manifests a mind that has not been renewed in Christ Jesus. If one sees only the physical aspects, they are missing the Spiritual principles.

Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 7:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:5-9 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I am not advocating that one is justified by the "works" of the law. I am advocating that God's words don't change, and never have and never will.

Logic? Illogical? Rational? Good words that should be applied for those that say they believe.
If you say that I am endorsing that one needs to obey the physical aspects of the law, you are incorrect. I'm advocating that all of what God has ever said is true for today. Nothing about His Words have vanished. He's much smarter than to say something that was a mistake, and then have to change it. The change of the priestly tribe was all in the plan before the world was created, and so was the physical to the spiritual temple. Our High Priest, Jesus Christ, gave the law to Moses so he could relay those to Aaron.

Sorry about not responding sooner, but it took a while to answer so as to give you my thoughts concerning this subject backed up by the truth in the "words of God." Amen

ivanc0 · Mar 30, 2014

just-me said:

Jews are in the synagogues and at different times in the streets too.

Thanks from bringing the issue of the two rules. It is true,

See what Paul said: "I testify that if a man is circumcised he has to obey the whole law" He was circumcised!.
See in acts 21, How James tell Paul to go the the temple to perform a Jew ritual.

But also He taught the grace to the gentiles (I have put lots of scriptures on this before see my posts) acts 15:10.

Then is clear there is two sets of Christians, the circumcised and the in-circumcised living two sets of rules. There is a period of transference a period in which culture and tradition can not be eradicated easily, over time the Christians Jew or Gentile stop circumcision, and stop the Practice of Moses law. or the Jew Christians were exterminated by the good followers of the law (no Christian Jews) they probably motivated the romans to kill them like they killed Jesus, or Esteban.
I been born In a Christian family and they did not worry to circumcised me. they did it to you?

ivanc0 · Mar 30, 2014

ivanc0 said:

Sorry a typo:

"over time the Christians Jew or Gentile stop circumcision" please replace with "over time the Christians Jew and Gentile stop circumcision", some Gentiles fell for the judaizer teachings and got circumcised (this is an inference.....is a good chance it is possible)

eternally-gratefull · Mar 30, 2014

ivanc0 said:

Paul said he was all things to all people.

There were not differing things for jews and gentiles concerning salvation. It was however well known that no jew would listen to someone who did not do that. So it is better to do it not to offend. That whay they would listen to the message of grace, and possibly become saved.

A gentile would not care. so it would not affect Pauls message to the gentiles.

haz · Mar 30, 2014

just-me said:

Forums attract a lot of legalists. And many of us here have become accustomed to the legalists style of always pointing to obedience of the law. Some even do this in a very subtle way, hiding their preaching of the law behind some other angle of argument.

Their focus is centred on the law. Coincidently, your focus has likewise been centred on the law.

I don't have the time to search through your posts so perhaps a few hopefully direct answers from you can resolve this.

The law is described in various ways in scripture. One such description is the 10 commandments. I assume this is what you describe as God's law.

And as you quoted that we live by every word of God, are you including physical obedience to the law of God, with this? For example, many Christians do not keep the Sabbath. How do you think God sees them?

just-me · Mar 30, 2014

Speaking of God not changing, would people think that it’s coincidental that the Passover lamb was killed on the exact day and month that Jesus was crucified hundreds of years later? Would it be coincidental that God showed Moses a tree to put in undrinkable water to make it palatable for Israel on the exact day and month that Jesus rose from the dead? The giving of the law started on Passover. Do we think it’s coincidental that Moses was called up to Mount Sinai to receive the stone tablets on the very same day that the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost hundreds of year later? God doesn’t change anything He has ever said.

Exodus 15:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,

Acts 10:39 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

This is just a smidgen of a much bigger picture defining the plan of salvation in detail that was complete before heaven and earth were created. That plan, which includes the law, and the prophets, was completed in Christ Jesus. Not negated.

John 4:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

peacefulbeliever · Mar 30, 2014

just-me said:

How do we establish that "Law"? through faith in Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law - through his obedience to his Father to death on the cross; Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. It is ridiculous to say things do not change - Used to be you could have more than one wife, used to be you could only eat the herb of the land, used to be you could only eat certain meats, used to be you had to offer sacrifices for wrong doing, used to be a priest had to enter the holy of holies for you, used to be you had to be circumcised, etc.

Now our righteousness is by faith not by law. The law and the prophets now hang on two commandments; Jesus very plainly and clearly stated. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.

And that is so true - every word of God is for doctrine, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect [mature], throughly furnished unto good works. We gain instruction - but when something no longer works [law] and no one can do it - then a new a better way comes along wherein we are made righteous through faith - not works. Our faith produces good works -

Again, so true. . . . read it slowly - For if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law - Apparently, the "law" doesn't cut it! And if we keep reading and don't just cherry pick here and there - But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I acknowledge that there was a law given to Moses - and I believe that Jesus told us that those commandments rest in TWO - that is if you are speaking of the 10 commandments only. The Levitical law - nah, nope, nada. . . . .

I understand what you are saying regarding "principles". God has principles all through his word that we would do good to learn - especially Proverbs. The things regarding the temple - all fulfilled in Christ.

It sure seems as if you are advocating that we go back to being under the law. God doesn't change but his laws change - His laws changed from a set of 10 Commandments, and the Levitical law which dealt with the children of Israel as a collective group to dealing with each born again believer, even each person in an individual personal way. That is not how he dealt with Israel. I do not have to be circumcised now, I do not have to work for my salvation now, I have to have one husband/wife now, I can eat what I want now with thanksgiving. . .things haven't changed? . . . . . Yep, those that are in the flesh CANNOT please God and everything I try to do in accordance with the "Law" is by the flesh - and if I fail in ONE - I fail in ALL. I delight in the law of God after the inward man - [written in fleshly tables of the heart] - But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. - what is 'another law'? the one that brings the knowledge of sin . . . . for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested

peacefulbeliever · Mar 30, 2014

just-me said:

Speaking of God not changing, would people think that it’s coincidental that the Passover lamb was killed on the exact day and month that Jesus was crucified hundreds of years later? Would it be coincidental that God showed Moses a tree to put in undrinkable water to make it palatable for Israel on the exact day and month that Jesus rose from the dead? The giving of the law started on Passover. Do we think it’s coincidental that Moses was called up to Mount Sinai to receive the stone tablets on the very same day that the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost hundreds of year later? God doesn’t change anything He has ever said.

Exodus 15:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,

Acts 10:39 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

This is just a smidgen of a much bigger picture defining the plan of salvation in detail that was complete before heaven and earth were created. That plan, which includes the law, and the prophets, was completed in Christ Jesus. Not negated.

John 4:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

No one is saying that there is no correlation between the OT and the NT. . . .the OT is full of 'shadows' of the coming Christ but that is all they were 'shadows'. It was 'fulfilled in Christ Jesus - all the shadows brought to light. We no longer need the 'shadows' when the real thing has come. There is a lot we can learn from the OT - many hidden gems but it is all concerning the coming Messiah.

Jesus Christ - the REAL THING!

chubbena · Mar 30, 2014

ivanc0 said:

Originally Posted by chubbena

In fact, He replaces a heart of stone with a heart of flesh and the Holy Spirit moves one to follow His decrees and be careful to keep His laws. The way to put His law in one's heart has changed, not the law itself. First was for man to impress in the heart himself but man was not able to because of his sinful nature. Now is all God's work.
That's it!!! Well spoken my friend, Well spoken!

This is a nice metaphor, God in his plan decided to stop "fulfill" moses law, when the ultimate sacrifice, the sacrifice of his son has been consummated. as a sign the veil of the temple was tore!

Jesus established a higher set of rules (we I say this to pastors, they always say ... "then pay higher Tithings"), The apostles called this rules the Grace, it was very difficult for them to understand the law was fulfilled, this is way the Judaizers came into scene.

Paul wrote many of his letter to fight against the judaizer's gospel, in that context he writes his letters and says:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

or
Galatians 5:2-4

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[SUP][a][/SUP] by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Then I repeat "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace"

What sort of brain DO I have to have not to understand this words!

And then in a silly recourse try to quote the Old Testament, to refute this principle, "YOU CAN NOT REFUTE A NEW LAW WITH A LAW THAT HAS BEEN ABOLISHED" You just showing your great knowledge and poor undestanding... now you are the "DOCTORS OF THE LAW"

Only when one, due to whatever reason, disregard Ezekiel 36:25-27 would believe the law has stopped.
And regarding Galatians, only when one does not read the whole letter would he think it's regarding the whole law.
Paul was talking about the circumcision group trying to get the Galatians to circumcise.
Paul was talking about Peter forcing Gentiles to follow Jewish customs i.e. they could not associate with the Jews unless they were circumcised.
I said it before and I say it again, only recently, like the last 50 years, is the letter to the Galatians and the law interpreted differently. The deception has begun.

chubbena · Mar 30, 2014

haz said:

Forums attract a lot of legalists. And many of us here have become accustomed to the legalists style of always pointing to obedience of the law. Some even do this in a very subtle way, hiding their preaching of the law behind some other angle of argument.

Their focus is centred on the law. Coincidently, your focus has likewise been centred on the law.

I don't have the time to search through your posts so perhaps a few hopefully direct answers from you can resolve this.

The law is described in various ways in scripture. One such description is the 10 commandments. I assume this is what you describe as God's law.

And as you quoted that we live by every word of God, are you including physical obedience to the law of God, with this? For example, many Christians do not keep the Sabbath. How do you think God sees them?

And a lot of deceivers who promote lawlessness.

just-me · Mar 30, 2014

haz said:

The "Ten Commandments" (as we know them) are a very small part of the law. In this thread, and in other places, I have never endorsed to others that they must keep the law in a physical manner. I know that some do, but I am labled with them as a Judaizer, legalizer, hypocrite, and Pharisee. Ignorant, and irrational can be included. The law is spiritual, and "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24 (KJV)

As this thread suggests, it is dangerous to talk against the law of God. Some want to change the law like the Pharisees did. Some would like to see it go away using Jesus for an excuse, and so on. I'm saying nothing else on this thread than ......... "Don't try to distort what God has ever said. It is clearly taking the Lord's name in vain." I say God doesn't change, Jesus was sent to change us, not anything His Father has ever said. The change of the Priesthood to Judah was prophesied, so that was also in the plan of salvation before the world was. Man's law is Pharisaical, God's law is true for today.

John 12:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, (past tense) and will glorify it again. (Future tense)

John 17:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Hope that answers you questions about what I believe.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 30, 2014

chubbena said:

Not true.

The problem is when people think ezek 36 is speaking of the levitical law

Is this so??

Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Maybe you have not read all of galations?

Yes. And? Gal 5: 3 (WHOLE LAW)

lol..

Ingterpret what it says and not what people for a few thousand years, who perverted christianity with works. want it to be interpreted

Gal 5: 3 (WHOLE LAW)

eternally-gratefull · Mar 30, 2014

chubbena said:

and who would this be?
Saying the law has completed its job in Gods children is not promoting lawlessness.

If anything, Scripture shows that people who tried to follow the law promoted lawlessness.

just-me · Mar 30, 2014

chubbena said:

Circumcision truth. The carnal mind can't see that it is spiritual, and how it still applies. The physical is the foreshadowing of this.

Colossians 2:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

If it wasn't in the law to begin with it would mean nothing today. Just like the following.........

Matthew 16:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

peacefulbeliever · Mar 30, 2014

Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to thing any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For is the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope. we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day when Moses is read the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:1-17

Says it all - Hallelujah and Amen!

just-me · Mar 30, 2014

peacefulbeliever said:

And to add to you thoughts and scripture references that are Biblical.....

How do we know we are serving the real Jesus that taught us the real truth? Rhetorically speaking.

John 5:43-47 (KJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I quote this a lot. Maybe someday, hopefully people in here, and all over the world who want to throw away God's words to Moses, will see the truth in what Jesus is saying to the Pharisees here.

God bless you sis. I mean that!

eternally-gratefull · Mar 30, 2014

just-me said:

Well this proves the law did not do their job in them. Thats all. If they allowed the schoolmaster to do its job, They would have recieved Jesus.

But as Paul said, What need is there of a schoolmaster when it has completed its Job?

Talking against the law is dangerous

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