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OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
363
83
#21
First of all let me just say thank you. Thanks to the site owner, for creating and maintaining this platform. Thanks to all the ppl who partake and respond here. I have seen a lot of really neat people in this online community.


I have over posted random ramblings in the BDF, the SDF and in the blogs. I am never sure where the best place it is to get conversations going. I think part of my problem is I go on to much like this, lol.


Anyway, thanks for being patient with me as I come to learn, play, and communicate with written fellowship.


I just started Exodus and was wondering if you have any tips on what I should be thinking about and looking for as I set forth on this journey?


I have another question. I believe God loves the whole world and that He gave us Yesua, His son, so that we all might have the opportunity to be saved. I believe He designed us with choice. I am not really a believer in predestination but now I seek to know what do do with Romans 8…


For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:29‭-‬30 NASB


If it just said predestined, without having said foreknew also, I could easily say, ok He is outside of time so He knows who will choose Him. However, it says He foreknew AND predestined. So now I'm wondering do we even have freewill? I think about how he operated in the OT, how He definitely orchestrated their lives, and He doesn't change. Hmmmm? I know this topic has been beaten up and pondered, but sometimes, I think somewhere this is an answer that makes sense so that all the scriptures line up, because it says clearly that whosoever believes, and calls on the name... and many other verses that seem to contradict the predestined. I know the confusion is in my understanding not in Him. I know He is a God of order.


Well if you would give me a tip about studying Exodus or about the other, I'd appreciate it.


Thank you all. Love, in Christ, and God Bless you and yours.
He predestined those who would choose to obey Him, He just happened to know ahead of time who would make that choice. You can't make a choice without freewill. It's God's whole purpose of creating humans and earth. He had angels who obeyed Him, and if they sinned once they would spiritually die forever- which is why He created us on the earth instead of in heaven because if you look upon God with sin you die forever. He wants those few who will love Him of their own freewill no matter what. It's the struggle, the effort to do what's right that shows that we love Him, despite gentle and super harsh persecutions and trials.

"If you love Me you will obey what I command."
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,197
6,768
113
#22
He predestined those who would choose to obey Him, He just happened to know ahead of time who would make that choice. You can't make a choice without freewill. It's God's whole purpose of creating humans and earth. He had angels who obeyed Him, and if they sinned once they would spiritually die forever- which is why He created us on the earth instead of in heaven because if you look upon God with sin you die forever. He wants those few who will love Him of their own freewill no matter what. It's the struggle, the effort to do what's right that shows that we love Him, despite gentle and super harsh persecutions and trials.

"If you love Me you will obey what I command."
That makes abundant sense, thank you so very much!!!
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#23
First of all let me just say thank you. Thanks to the site owner, for creating and maintaining this platform. Thanks to all the ppl who partake and respond here. I have seen a lot of really neat people in this online community.


I have over posted random ramblings in the BDF, the SDF and in the blogs. I am never sure where the best place it is to get conversations going. I think part of my problem is I go on to much like this, lol.


Anyway, thanks for being patient with me as I come to learn, play, and communicate with written fellowship.


I just started Exodus and was wondering if you have any tips on what I should be thinking about and looking for as I set forth on this journey?


I have another question. I believe God loves the whole world and that He gave us Yesua, His son, so that we all might have the opportunity to be saved. I believe He designed us with choice. I am not really a believer in predestination but now I seek to know what do do with Romans 8…


For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:29‭-‬30 NASB


If it just said predestined, without having said foreknew also, I could easily say, ok He is outside of time so He knows who will choose Him. However, it says He foreknew AND predestined. So now I'm wondering do we even have freewill? I think about how he operated in the OT, how He definitely orchestrated their lives, and He doesn't change. Hmmmm? I know this topic has been beaten up and pondered, but sometimes, I think somewhere this is an answer that makes sense so that all the scriptures line up, because it says clearly that whosoever believes, and calls on the name... and many other verses that seem to contradict the predestined. I know the confusion is in my understanding not in Him. I know He is a God of order.


Well if you would give me a tip about studying Exodus or about the other, I'd appreciate it.


Thank you all. Love, in Christ, and God Bless you and yours.
At 50 years old I thought I was smart enough to figure out the , seemingly, contradicting scriptures and gave up on my smartness at age 62. After awhile the Holy Ghost within me started revealing a little here and a little there. I thought back and decided if God had shown me some truth earlier, I would have said "I knew I was smart enough". Jesus said, "deny yourselves, take up your cross and follow me". I found out the Greek meaning of the words, salvation, saved, save, is "a deliverance", and that most of the salvation scriptures are referring to a deliverance we receive here on earth when we repent of the sins we commit and try to follow God's instructions for living our lives this side of heaven. The scriptures that I thought contradicted, as an example, was, "We are saved (delivered) by grace through faith of Jesus and that not of ourselves", and, "Save (deliver) yourselves from this untoward generation" I can give you more examples, if you like.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#24
He predestined those who would choose to obey Him, He just happened to know ahead of time who would make that choice. You can't make a choice without freewill. It's God's whole purpose of creating humans and earth. He had angels who obeyed Him, and if they sinned once they would spiritually die forever- which is why He created us on the earth instead of in heaven because if you look upon God with sin you die forever. He wants those few who will love Him of their own freewill no matter what. It's the struggle, the effort to do what's right that shows that we love Him, despite gentle and super harsh persecutions and trials.

"If you love Me you will obey what I command."
If you think that God choose, by his foreknowledge, Those that would seek him and do good, It might do you good to read Ps 53:2-3. That is the reason God choose some before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). God also made provision through his Son's death on the cross to make those that he choose holy and without blame.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#25
Everything is predestined/predetermined, whole the universe.

This does not take away our choices or our responsibility, because the predestination does not force us. Our choices are not random and blind, though, they are based on causes and on our inclinations, therefore the outcome is always certain.
God did give us a free will to choose how we want to live our lives here on earth, but our eternal salvation was given by God's grace, without the help, or decision to accept him. God is all powerful and says he will accomplish all of his will, and none can stay his hand (Dan 4:35). God does according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph 1:5).
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
113
#26
God did give us a free will to choose how we want to live our lives here on earth, but our eternal salvation was given by God's grace, without the help, or decision to accept him. God is all powerful and says he will accomplish all of his will, and none can stay his hand (Dan 4:35). God does according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph 1:5).
How do you define the free will in humans?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#27
That makes abundant sense, thank you so very much!!!
I believe the scriptures prove themselves and that they all must harmonize if you are going to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. There are many false doctrines in this world. You should always compare my thoughts and everyone else to see if they harmonize with the scriptures. never take a persons interpretation of the scriptures at face value, without proving them scripture against scripture.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#28
How do you define the free will in humans?
There are many scriptures in the bible where God tells us to make choices pertaining to our lives here on earth, which indicates, to me, that he has given us the choice to make for ourselves, hence, free will.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
113
#29
There are many scriptures in the bible where God tells us to make choices pertaining to our lives here on earth, which indicates, to me, that he has given us the choice to make for ourselves, hence, free will.
Ah, if by "free will" you just mean we choose something instead of something else, then OK, I have no problem with that.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#30
Concerning your study of Exodus, read Exodus straight through with pen and paper at hand. Record anything of interest to you. Especially those things that seem to go against what you may have believed.

I have always said, don't be afraid to believe what the Bible says. And, don't be afraid to voice it before non-believers when they try and use it against you. In other words, they will use David's adultry and murder against you. They will use God's killing all of those innocents in the flood of Noah against you. They will use God's killing of the Canaanites to give the land to Israel against you. They will use eternal damnation of those not saved who are cast in the lake of fire against you.

Concerning predestination or election, you cannot get around it. It is taught in the Scripture. 'Whosoever' is also taught. Both are true.

Quantrill
The "whosoever" is "whosoever will" and if the whosoever will is pertaining to spiritual matters, the natural man, void of the Spirit, will not be one of those who will respond to the whosoever will because he cannot discern spiritual things. (1 Cor 2:14).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#31
For a number of reasons, I prefer the term "self will" over "free will." Many arguments could be made against the free will option, since we are constrained by many forces, including the physicality of the universe, its laws, and our own biological parameters in being human. Self will, however, is very clearly presented in Scriptures, starting with Adam and Eve deciding for themselves that it would be preferable to follow their own way rather than God's way. That is just a start ;) Hello, CharliRenee! :)
This is how I interpret Romans 8:29-30; God, by his foreknowledge, looked down upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did seek him, they were all gone back, they had all become filthy, there were none that did good, no, not one. (Ps 53:2-3). This is why God in Eph 1:4, choose a people before the foundation of the world (so he would have a people to praise and worship him) and he predetermined them to be his adopted children, by making them holy and without blame, by Jesus's death on the cross. In 1 Pet 1:2, Peter calls these people, that were chosen by God's foreknowledge, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
#32
The "whosoever" is "whosoever will" and if the whosoever will is pertaining to spiritual matters, the natural man, void of the Spirit, will not be one of those who will respond to the whosoever will because he cannot discern spiritual things. (1 Cor 2:14).
What do you mean 'void of the Spirit'? The natural man has a spirit. It is dead, or separated from God, but he still has a spirit. So what do you mean?

Quantrill
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#33
What do you mean 'void of the Spirit'? The natural man has a spirit. It is dead, or separated from God, but he still has a spirit. So what do you mean?

Quantrill
Yes, the natural man has the spirit of man, but he does not have the Holy Spirit of God. I guess me putting a capital letter of "S" was not good enough, so, I am sorry that I did not include Holy with it.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
#34
Yes, the natural man has the spirit of man, but he does not have the Holy Spirit of God. I guess me putting a capital letter of "S" was not good enough, so, I am sorry that I did not include Holy with it.
No, I understood by the capital 'S' what you meant. But you said the natural man is void of the Spirit. OK. How does any natural man receive the Spirit?

Quantrill
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,517
6,174
113
#36
I have another question. I believe God loves the whole world and that He gave us Yesua, His son, so that we all might have the opportunity to be saved. I believe He designed us with choice. I am not really a believer in predestination but now I seek to know what do do with Romans 8


For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 8:29‭-‬30 NASB
It is not really that complicated. Just note carefully what is ACTUALLY STATED, not what Calvinists IMAGINE.

...predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son...

Now does this say "predestined to be saved from Hell" or "predestined to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON"?

So what exactly does that mean? Since all human beings are born in the image of fallen Adam (with a sin nature and a tendency to sin) God wants to TOTALLY TRANSFORM His children so that they no longer resemble Adam, but they perfectly resemble Christ -- "the image or resemblance of His Son" -- who is "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners".

Therefore sinners are justified by grace, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and perfected and glorified by Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture. Which means that predestination is NOT for salvation (as falsely taught) but for perfection and glorification.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#37
It is not really that complicated. Just note carefully what is ACTUALLY STATED, not what Calvinists IMAGINE.

...predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son...

Now does this say "predestined to be saved from Hell" or "predestined to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON"?

So what exactly does that mean? Since all human beings are born in the image of fallen Adam (with a sin nature and a tendency to sin) God wants to TOTALLY TRANSFORM His children so that they no longer resemble Adam, but they perfectly resemble Christ -- "the image or resemblance of His Son" -- who is "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners".

Therefore sinners are justified by grace, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and perfected and glorified by Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture. Which means that predestination is NOT for salvation (as falsely taught) but for perfection and glorification.
Predestination is God predetermining that Christ would pay the adoption price for those he choose to become his adopted children that will live with him in heaven.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
#39
Predestination is God predetermining that Christ would pay the adoption price for those he choose to become his adopted children that will live with him in heaven.
We are not adopted children of God. We are true, and real sons and daughters of God. We have our Father's DNA in us. Adoption in the Scripture is not to be confused with how we speak of adoption today. Adoption in Scripture speaks to our adult son placement. Sonship. (Gal. 4:1-5)

We are born children of God and and then began our maturity process towards being mature adult sons of God.

Quantrill
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,197
6,768
113
#40
It is not really that complicated. Just note carefully what is ACTUALLY STATED, not what Calvinists IMAGINE.

...predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son...

Now does this say "predestined to be saved from Hell" or "predestined to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON"?

So what exactly does that mean? Since all human beings are born in the image of fallen Adam (with a sin nature and a tendency to sin) God wants to TOTALLY TRANSFORM His children so that they no longer resemble Adam, but they perfectly resemble Christ -- "the image or resemblance of His Son" -- who is "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners".

Therefore sinners are justified by grace, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and perfected and glorified by Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture. Which means that predestination is NOT for salvation (as falsely taught) but for perfection and glorification.
You may have been able to penetrate my thicknoggin. I'm doing a Roman's study at Torahclass.com and it is helping me too. Thanks Nehemiah, u gave me an ah ha moment, still not quite there but closer, thanks.