That Hebrews 10v26 Thread

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Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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I will compile something to explore this more deeply re Israel Vs Church because I do believe there are some differences ala the fact that the HS dwells in the believer in the New Covenant versus not in the old. Therein the greater gravity under the new.
Sorry for the delay but had some errands, and it is a longer post. And longer for a reason:

Under the Old Covenant

2 Chronicles 7

14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. 15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place. 16 For now I have chosen and sanctified this house, that My name may be there forever; and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. 17 As for you, if you walk before Me as your father David walked, and do according to all that I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and My judgments, 18 then I will establish the throne of your kingdom, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, ‘You shall not fail to have a man as ruler in Israel.’
19 “But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship them, 20 then I will uproot them from My land which I have given them; and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.
21 “And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and this house?’ 22 Then they will answer, Because they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this calamity on them.’


- God sovereignly works with corporate Israel, according to the promises made to Abraham, then Isaac and Jacob. Even though only a remnant is saved, God will still honour His oath to them

- God led Israel into captivity (Babylon for Judah/ Assyria for Israel) because they turned to other gods. 70 odd years for Judah and around 430 years for Israel if I recall correctly. This is because they turned from God and began serving other gods.

-It wasn’t a pleasant time for them. With Jerusalem surrounded and under months long siege, the women and men began eating their own offspring. Many people died before Jerusalem capitulated.

-During this time God still had his prophets in amongst the people, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc. rebuking the people for their sins and their turning from the Lord. But He also gave them hope that this would not be forever, because of His mercies, and that one day he would restore them. And this He did.

-Individuals (within Israel) could also turn from their wicked ways back to the Lord during this time. However they themselves might be saved, they were under corporate captivity. A saved Jew under Babylonian rule. At this time Israel could not perform the daily, monthly and annual sacrifices. This could not be done because they no longer had the temple. No longer had God’s presence dwelling with them.

-Do I believe that someone (a Jew) who for a season served and worshipped Baal and then had a change of heart and returned to the living God, then my opinion is that this person would be restored as per 2 Chronicles 7v14 above.

- And the reason is that the law was a tutor but they did not have the indwelling presence of the Lord God as does the church today. Today the law is written upon our hearts and the Holy Spirit is the HELPER. Back then they had only Flesh and Soul. Today we have Flesh, Soul and Spirit. And it’s the Spirit that makes all the difference.

- The closer you are to God’s presence the swifter the judgment – it is the very reason the Annanias and Sapphira were immediately stuck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit. Its because the presence of the Holy Spirit was very strong and tangible in the church in those days. It is also the reason why Eli and his sons (1 Samuel) were allowed to contravene the laws of God without much repercussion in those days, because the word of the Lord was scarce in those days.


Which brings us to the present day.

-We have an indwelling Holy Spirit. In some sense we are in a similar position to Ananias and Sapphira (Holy Spirit with), but less so in the fact that today we find the church more in the state we found Israel in 1 Samuel. I believe the “True” Word of the Lord is scarce these days. We all know that the Holy Spirit is not moving in the same way as He did at the very birth of the church in the book of Acts. Why? Because by and large although we have the numbers in the church today, I don’t believe there exists the same zeal, excitement and total surrender that you had in the early days in the Book of Acts.

- And this is probably a good thing in ONE respect. There would be a lot more slain Annanias and Sapphiras (even on this forum).

-But there is one thing that God won’t compromise on His Word. And that is the scriptures. If you had tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come, if you fall away, to be renewed again unto repentance, because you crucify the Son of God all over again. This is the truth. And for this it means a GENUINE believer who turns their back on God. I cannot tell whether your friends were ever serious about God. If they weren’t then they were not saved to begin with and they could theoretically flip flop. If they were serious, then turned, well then there is no way back according to the scriptures.

-To give you an example of the standard of Grace versus the Law we can compare the following: under law you had to physically commit adultery, under Grace you just had to think it to be committing adultery. Under law you had to physically murder someone to be guilty of murder. Under Grace you just had to hate someone.

- Under Grace the standard is HIGHER. And this is why Apostasy under Grace is so much more punitive.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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Sorry for the delay but had some errands, and it is a longer post. And longer for a reason:

Under the Old Covenant

2 Chronicles 7

14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. 15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place. 16 For now I have chosen and sanctified this house, that My name may be there forever; and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. 17 As for you, if you walk before Me as your father David walked, and do according to all that I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and My judgments, 18 then I will establish the throne of your kingdom, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, ‘You shall not fail to have a man as ruler in Israel.’
19 “But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship them, 20 then I will uproot them from My land which I have given them; and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.
21 “And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and this house?’ 22 Then they will answer, Because they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this calamity on them.’


- God sovereignly works with corporate Israel, according to the promises made to Abraham, then Isaac and Jacob. Even though only a remnant is saved, God will still honour His oath to them

- God led Israel into captivity (Babylon for Judah/ Assyria for Israel) because they turned to other gods. 70 odd years for Judah and around 430 years for Israel if I recall correctly. This is because they turned from God and began serving other gods.

-It wasn’t a pleasant time for them. With Jerusalem surrounded and under months long siege, the women and men began eating their own offspring. Many people died before Jerusalem capitulated.

-During this time God still had his prophets in amongst the people, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc. rebuking the people for their sins and their turning from the Lord. But He also gave them hope that this would not be forever, because of His mercies, and that one day he would restore them. And this He did.

-Individuals (within Israel) could also turn from their wicked ways back to the Lord during this time. However they themselves might be saved, they were under corporate captivity. A saved Jew under Babylonian rule. At this time Israel could not perform the daily, monthly and annual sacrifices. This could not be done because they no longer had the temple. No longer had God’s presence dwelling with them.

-Do I believe that someone (a Jew) who for a season served and worshipped Baal and then had a change of heart and returned to the living God, then my opinion is that this person would be restored as per 2 Chronicles 7v14 above.

- And the reason is that the law was a tutor but they did not have the indwelling presence of the Lord God as does the church today. Today the law is written upon our hearts and the Holy Spirit is the HELPER. Back then they had only Flesh and Soul. Today we have Flesh, Soul and Spirit. And it’s the Spirit that makes all the difference.

- The closer you are to God’s presence the swifter the judgment – it is the very reason the Annanias and Sapphira were immediately stuck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit. Its because the presence of the Holy Spirit was very strong and tangible in the church in those days. It is also the reason why Eli and his sons (1 Samuel) were allowed to contravene the laws of God without much repercussion in those days, because the word of the Lord was scarce in those days.


Which brings us to the present day.

-We have an indwelling Holy Spirit. In some sense we are in a similar position to Ananias and Sapphira (Holy Spirit with), but less so in the fact that today we find the church more in the state we found Israel in 1 Samuel. I believe the “True” Word of the Lord is scarce these days. We all know that the Holy Spirit is not moving in the same way as He did at the very birth of the church in the book of Acts. Why? Because by and large although we have the numbers in the church today, I don’t believe there exists the same zeal, excitement and total surrender that you had in the early days in the Book of Acts.

- And this is probably a good thing in ONE respect. There would be a lot more slain Annanias and Sapphiras (even on this forum).

-But there is one thing that God won’t compromise on His Word. And that is the scriptures. If you had tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come, if you fall away, to be renewed again unto repentance, because you crucify the Son of God all over again. This is the truth. And for this it means a GENUINE believer who turns their back on God. I cannot tell whether your friends were ever serious about God. If they weren’t then they were not saved to begin with and they could theoretically flip flop. If they were serious, then turned, well then there is no way back according to the scriptures.

-To give you an example of the standard of Grace versus the Law we can compare the following: under law you had to physically commit adultery, under Grace you just had to think it to be committing adultery. Under law you had to physically murder someone to be guilty of murder. Under Grace you just had to hate someone.

- Under Grace the standard is HIGHER. And this is why Apostasy under Grace is so much more punitive.
thanks for the answer. obviously i dont know these men hearts either. but let me try to talk this: why would israel have it better than us today? like israel gets second chance to return but we dont?

i believe hebrews is written to hebrews and so they were tempted to go back to rabbinic judaism. its important to remembe that historical context.

i dont know where to put this word in sentence so i put it here to look smarter than i am: hermeneutics. there
 

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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thanks for the answer. obviously i dont know these men hearts either. but let me try to talk this: why would israel have it better than us today? like israel gets second chance to return but we dont?

i believe hebrews is written to hebrews and so they were tempted to go back to rabbinic judaism. its important to remembe that historical context.

i dont know where to put this word in sentence so i put it here to look smarter than i am: hermeneutics. there
I'm not so sure that Israel had it better than us to be honest. I believe that there have been multiple million more gentiles saved than those of Israel. We are blessed because of their rejection of the gospel. The bible says that we (gentiles) are the wild olive branch that has been grafted in. See below and read it carefully:

Romans 11

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

So it is in reality very sad for Isreal that for the last 2000 or so year have walked in blindness (not that there aren't Messianic Jews - there are, and there are some amazing testimonies on youtube). But by and large the significant majority have missed their Messiah. And even in the end times, there will be a revival of sorts (Gentiles will be blinded as the Jews are blinded today, and the Jews eyes will be opened just as some Gentiles eyes are opened today). But in number terms this is still only a small remnant. Very sad.

Israel gets a second chance because of the promises to Abrahama, Isaac and Jacob. They are the Elect for the sake of their forefathers, and there are promises that God will not go back on. This is why they get another chance. And because God is sovereign and He decides who gets second chances and who doesnt.

The book of Hebrews was most likely the very last book written by Paul (from Rome where he was, and was eventually killed - to the Hebrews back in Judea). It is not a separate gospel to the gospel you have through Paul to the gentiles. Many false teachers will tell you that it is not applicable, because there are some serious scriptures that mean life and death. The Hebrews to whom it was written were still the CHURCH. Its not a letter to OT Jews stuck in Judaism. The book of Hebrews (together with the book of Romans) is amongst the most powerful letters in the bible. Not to be ignored.
 

Melach

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@Chris1975 do you still believe we are saved. people who believe the sheep are always saved?
 

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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@Chris1975 do you still believe we are saved. people who believe the sheep are always saved?
Matthew 25v31-46
Look it up.
Are we the sheep or are we the goats.
For I can assure you there are some goats that have called Him Lord, Lord.
What is the distinction between sheep and goats in the above passage?
 

John146

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Matthew 25v31-46
Look it up.
Are we the sheep or are we the goats.
For I can assure you there are some goats that have called Him Lord, Lord.
What is the distinction between sheep and goats in the above passage?
Neither, I’m in the body of Christ. Matthew 25 is a tribulation passage and not to be applied to the Church, the body of Christ. Learn how to rightly divide the word of truth, seriously, I’m not trying to be rude.
 

Chris1975

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Neither, I’m in the body of Christ. Matthew 25 is a tribulation passage and not to be applied to the Church, the body of Christ. Learn how to rightly divide the word of truth, seriously, I’m not trying to be rude.
It can't be a tribulation passage. Because:

A) tribulation happens before the return of Christ. Antichrist and false prophet first to be judged. Dragon is bound for a 1000 years.
B) Christ still reigns on earth for the millennial 1000 year reign
C) Dragon is set free once again to deceive the earth's inhabitants
D) Final accounting happens post the 1000 year millennial reign.

So the above passage cannot be just after the tribulation, because it (Matthew 25) talks about the final judgement Day of the Lord.

I believe you have it wrong.
 

John146

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It can't be a tribulation passage. Because:

A) tribulation happens before the return of Christ. Antichrist and false prophet first to be judged. Dragon is bound for a 1000 years.
B) Christ still reigns on earth for the millennial 1000 year reign
C) Dragon is set free once again to deceive the earth's inhabitants
D) Final accounting happens post the 1000 year millennial reign.

So the above passage cannot be just after the tribulation, because it (Matthew 25) talks about the final judgement Day of the Lord.

I believe you have it wrong.
It is the judgment of those in the tribulation when the Lord returns. He will judge nations not individuals.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
 

Chris1975

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It is the judgment of those in the tribulation when the Lord returns. He will judge nations not individuals.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

OK lets unpack this, by contrasting two passages, one from Matthew 25 and one from the Book of Revelation: GET READY TO READ (2 PARTS)

PART 1

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

>Notice Christ sits on the Throne
>Notice the Sheep inherit eternal life here
>Notice the Goats go to the everlasting fire.
>Notice that this is a FINAL Judgement during the day of the Lord. This day of the Lord is AFTER the millennial reign of Christ, as we will see below.


Revelation 19
Christ on a White Horse

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
The Beast and His Armies Defeated
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, [i]free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
>Notice how this passage in Rev 19v11-21 is AFTER the TRIBULATION
>Notice how Christ executes judgement (slaying) of the enemies, BUT NOT judgement to eternal fire yet. These people die (their bodies).
>Only two people arethrown into the lake of fire (Beast and False Prophet). Just as Christ was the first to ascend into heaven, so too will the Beast be the first to descend into the LAKE OF FIRE.
>NO others are thrown into the lake of fire here. Now onto the next chapter.
 

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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It is the judgment of those in the tribulation when the Lord returns. He will judge nations not individuals.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
PART 2

Revelation 20
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
>The DEVIL HIMSELF (SATAN) is bound for 1000 years, for the same duration that Christ reigns on Earth in the 1000 year (7th day Rest)

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
>See, we have Jesus reigning 1000 years on earth with selected saints.
>Earth will continue as it has (people will be born, grow, get married, die). BUT, there will be peace on earth. And all nations will pay homage to Christ. Just like David subdued all the nations with the edge of the sword and then sat on his throne, so too Christ fullfills the TYPE by subduing all of the enemy (previous chapter) and sitting on the throne.


Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
>We have here the devil being released after 1000 years to once again deceive the nations and rise up a rebellion (this is far away into the future - more than 1000 years away). This rebellion is put down by God,
>Satan becomes the THIRD person thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE.

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
>do you see this yet? The judgement of all of the nations (everybody) only happens AT THE END of the 7000 year period (end of 1000 year millennial reign).
>Therefore the Sheep and Goats judgements, where the goats are thrown into the everlasting fire IS NOT at the end of tribulation, but is rather on the
DAY OF THE LORD.
 

John146

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PART 2

Revelation 20
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
>The DEVIL HIMSELF (SATAN) is bound for 1000 years, for the same duration that Christ reigns on Earth in the 1000 year (7th day Rest)

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
>See, we have Jesus reigning 1000 years on earth with selected saints.
>Earth will continue as it has (people will be born, grow, get married, die). BUT, there will be peace on earth. And all nations will pay homage to Christ. Just like David subdued all the nations with the edge of the sword and then sat on his throne, so too Christ fullfills the TYPE by subduing all of the enemy (previous chapter) and sitting on the throne.


Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
>We have here the devil being released after 1000 years to once again deceive the nations and rise up a rebellion (this is far away into the future - more than 1000 years away). This rebellion is put down by God,
>Satan becomes the THIRD person thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE.

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
>do you see this yet? The judgement of all of the nations (everybody) only happens AT THE END of the 7000 year period (end of 1000 year millennial reign).
>Therefore the Sheep and Goats judgements, where the goats are thrown into the everlasting fire IS NOT at the end of tribulation, but is rather on the
DAY OF THE LORD.
When does the Lord coming in His glory occur in your view? Verse 31

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
 

Deuteronomy

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Tell me what church you are going to. I want to go there too. Permanent press. Stainless steel. All those warnings and admonitions, just a waste of good ink. Just get dunked, and then you can poop around any old way you want. Do you really believe that? Jesus deserves better, and he will receive better, in the end
Hello Oyster, I'm hoping that you'll tell me how you reached the conclusion(s) that you did about what I wrote to Chris1975, because if anything, I meant the very opposite of what you said (I am also left wondering if I need to do some serious work on my forum communication skills?).

Here's what I wrote again (along with some commentary below each section which I hope will better express my meaning). Just FYI, I LOVE the Book of Hebrews, but I also know that it is hardly the easiest part of the NT to exegete properly.

Hello Chris1975, the sin that was being committed by the folks in Hebrews 10:26-27 was their continual/willful (deliberate) rejection of Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, even though they knew who He was. For those who, in the face of such knowledge about Him (knowing who He is and their need for Him as their Savior), continue to reject Him anyway, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins for them, only a terrifying expectation of judgment. Judas Iscariot comes to mind as an example of such a man.
Like Judas, I believe that those being discussed in Hebrews 10:26-27 were 1st Century Jewish ~almost~ Christians, IOW, they were Jews who knew who Jesus was, but who never came to saving faith in Him, NEVER became Christians. Instead, they continued to reject Him as their Lord and Savior and turned back to Judaism, but in doing so, they also turned away from the one and only sacrifice for their sins (as was confirmed earlier in the same Chapter, the blood of bulls and goats cannot save anyone .. Hebrews 10:4). I continue:

p.s. - true believers, who have been given new hearts and new spirits and the Holy Spirit/mind of Christ, who God has quickened/made alive spiritually, who He caused to be born again and are made His workmanship as wholly new creatures in Christ, do not go on sinning .. habitually and willfully .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:4-5, 10.
Habitual sin/living a life that is characterized by sin (a sinful "lifestyle", if you will) is what the unregenerate are guilty of, NOT believers. That's the additional point that I was attempting to make here, that no one who God has changed and caused to be born again continues on in their new life in Christ in the same manner that they lived it before they were saved, in continual/habitual sin, as a "lifestyle". If they do, then I believe that their claim of becoming a Christian should not be regarded as anything more than that, a "claim".

As the Apostle John also tells us,

1 John 3

9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Jesus saved us from the penalty of our sins, but He also saved from our former inclination/desire to continue in sin in this life. Though we all continue to sin (and still need to seek forgiveness for it whenever we do), true believers do not sin like we did before we were saved, habitually/as a lifestyle. When we sinned as non-Christians, we did so ~according~ to our (fallen) nature, but when true Christians sin, we do so ~against~ our new nature .. cf Ephesians 4:22-24.

I hope that explains my position a little better. If not, just let me know and I will try again :)

~Deut


 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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When does the Lord coming in His glory occur in your view? Verse 31

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
The context of this is the Lord coming in Glory on the Day of the Lord. And the throne is the THRONE OF GLORY (location: Heaven). This is not the throne that he was on during the millennial reign. And the reason is that ALL PEOPLE, from ALL TIME, are before Him. The dead are not brought to earth to be judged. These souls are judged in the Great White Throne judgement.

Matthew 25v31 and Revelation 20v11 are the same throne.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Hello Oyster, I'm hoping that you'll tell me how you reached the conclusion(s) that you did about what I wrote to Chris1975, because if anything, I meant the very opposite of what you said (I am also left wondering if I need to do some serious work on my forum communication skills?).

Here's what I wrote again (along with some commentary below each section which I hope will better express my meaning). Just FYI, I LOVE the Book of Hebrews, but I also know that it is hardly the easiest part of the NT to exegete properly.



Like Judas, I believe that those being discussed in Hebrews 10:26-27 were 1st Century Jewish ~almost~ Christians, IOW, they were Jews who knew who Jesus was, but who never came to saving faith in Him, NEVER became Christians. Instead, they continued to reject Him as their Lord and Savior and turned back to Judaism, but in doing so, they also turned away from the one and only sacrifice for their sins (as was confirmed earlier in the same Chapter, the blood of bulls and goats cannot save anyone .. Hebrews 10:4). I continue:


Habitual sin/living a life that is characterized by sin (a sinful "lifestyle", if you will) is what the unregenerate are guilty of, NOT believers. That's the additional point that I was attempting to make here, that no one who God has changed and caused to be born again continues on in their new life in Christ in the same manner that they lived it before they were saved, in continual/habitual sin, as a "lifestyle". If they do, then I believe that their claim of becoming a Christian should not be regarded as anything more than that, a "claim".

As the Apostle John also tells us,

1 John 3

9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Jesus saved us from the penalty of our sins, but He also saved from our former inclination/desire to continue in sin in this life. Though we all continue to sin (and still need to seek forgiveness for it whenever we do), true believers do not sin like we did before we were saved, habitually/as a lifestyle. When we sinned as non-Christians, we did so ~according~ to our (fallen) nature, but when true Christians sin, we do so ~against~ our new nature .. cf Ephesians 4:22-24.

I hope that explains my position a little better. If not, just let me know and I will try again :)

~Deut


Deuteronomy, you handled that so well. The Lord's Grace is within you. I can see that my brother. Whilst we don't agree on who Heb 10v26 is referring to, you other conclusions are spot on. And if that is our only difference, and I can see by your fruit you are a child of God, then we are in unity. :)

And P.S. I didn't read your post in the same way as Oyster, so I think it must have just been a communication glips somewhere.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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The context of this is the Lord coming in Glory on the Day of the Lord. And the throne is the THRONE OF GLORY (location: Heaven). This is not the throne that he was on during the millennial reign. And the reason is that ALL PEOPLE, from ALL TIME, are before Him. The dead are not brought to earth to be judged. These souls are judged in the Great White Throne judgement.

Matthew 25v31 and Revelation 20v11 are the same throne.
It doesn’t say all people of all time. It says nations.

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: All nations on earth during the tribulation. and he shall separate them nations one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them them being Nations not individuals on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. The nations will be judged according to their treatment towards the nation of Israel, the Lord’s brethren. At the GWTJ, individuals will be judged according to their works not how they treated the brethren.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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467
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It doesn’t say all people of all time. It says nations.

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: All nations on earth during the tribulation. and he shall separate them nations one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them them being Nations not individuals on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. The nations will be judged according to their treatment towards the nation of Israel, the Lord’s brethren. At the GWTJ, individuals will be judged according to their works not how they treated the brethren.
OOOHH NOOO!!! what is this interpretation? No, no.
All Nations means the whole world (that's all it means) ala preach this gospel to all nations and then the end will come. It just means to the ends of the earth.
The above interpretation is now a derailment of the train. Come back brother :oops:
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,863
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>do you see this yet? The judgement of all of the nations (everybody) only happens AT THE END of the 7000 year period (end of 1000 year millennial reign).
>Therefore the Sheep and Goats judgements, where the goats are thrown into the everlasting fire IS NOT at the end of tribulation, but is rather on the
DAY OF THE LORD.
i see it except for matthew 25:31 says when Jesus comes not 1000 years after He comes. so you just added a millennium there in between no?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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i knew it. you ducked the question. i asked if you are 100% of time keeping God's commandments yes or no.
you said you are 100% repentant well so am i.


lets try again yes or no?
Just exactly what is it that you think we are 100% repenting of? I think we have pretty well addressed your questions head on... multiple times. That is because we love you and the people who you are leading down the wrong path with your erroneous teachings.