The 144,000 named in Revelation

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm trying to see your point about the ascending and descending angels.... First of all I don't see that in chapter 7 at all. I see four angels STANDING on the earth and another angel ascending from the east. What am I missing?

Right. And I believe that the phrase "[another angel] having ascended from [apo] the rising of the sun" has more to do with it being a TIMING-MARKER than anything else. JMHO


[I believe there are a number of those throughout The Revelation, and that they are not readily apparent to the casual reader, but they WILL become very clear to those (future) "WISE [of Israel]" IN / DURING the future trib (7-yrs/70th-Wk/tribulation-period)]

 

[KJV1611]

Revelation 14:1-6 which is about the 144,000 <---lists 4 identifiers as to location......

The only reason you say they are in heaven in chapter 7 is because they are in heaven in chapter 14 (apparently, I'm not sure they are). I would think that you would agree that's not sound exegesis. Especially when chapter 7 points to them being on earth.

An angel ascending does not mean he's ascending to heaven to seal the 14400 that are already in heaven... you're reading waaay to much into ascending. Besides Revelation 6 and 7 are chronological and they are describing God's wrath being poured out and the angels sealing the firstfuits from the impending judgement. And yes all of that happened in the first century AD and here is the proof.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ P.S. (to my post) I see the "7:3 - servants of our God" to connect with Rev1:1/22:6 "servants"--i.e. "to shew unto His servants" correlating with the Matt22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to" which FOLLOWS the v.7/70ad events (meaning the "THEN SAITH HE to" occurred AFTER the 70ad events).

 

[KJV1611]

Right. And I believe that the phrase "[another angel] having ascended from [apo] the rising of the sun" has more to do with it being a TIMING-MARKER than anything else. JMHO


[I believe there are a number of those throughout The Revelation, and that they are not readily apparent to the casual reader, but they WILL become very clear to those (future) "WISE [of Israel]" IN / DURING the future trib (7-yrs/70th-Wk/tribulation-period)]

I don't think it's a time marker, I think it's a literal angel. Anyway, all of Revelation can be found in the old testament.... not saying I've found it all.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't think it's a time marker, I think it's a literal angel. Anyway, all of Revelation can be found in the old testament.... not saying I've found it all.

I'm not denying it's a literal angel. I'm saying (that I believe) the phrase "having ascended from [apo] the rising of the sun" is a time-marker (in the overall chronology of The Revelation and the time period that chpts 6-19 are describing [i.e. the future "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" events--which "IN QUICKNESS" expression is used elsewhere, like in Lk18:8[/chpt17-end] and Rom16:20[/1Cor6:3(14)])

 

[KJV1611]

I'm not denying it's a literal angel. I'm saying (that I believe) the phrase "having ascended from [apo] the rising of the sun" is a time-marker (in the overall chronology of The Revelation and the time period that chpts 6-19 are describing [i.e. the future "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" events--which "IN QUICKNESS" expression is used elsewhere, like in Lk18:8[chpt17] and Rom16:20[/1Cor6:3(14)]])

I don't follow you on "having ascended from the rising sun" where does the rising sun com from?

 

[dcontroversal]

The only reason you say they are in heaven in chapter 7 is because they are in heaven in chapter 14 (apparently, I'm not sure they are). I would think that you would agree that's not sound exegesis. Especially when chapter 7 points to them being on earth.

An angel ascending does not mean he's ascending to heaven to seal the 14400 that are already in heaven... you're reading waaay to much into ascending. Besides Revelation 6 and 7 are chronological and they are describing God's wrath being poured out and the angels sealing the firstfuits from the impending judgement. And yes all of that happened in the first century AD and here is the proof.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

No....I would agree that sometimes, especially those with a heavy Hebrew influence would give a general statement of fact and then later in the chapter or even book would fit out the details....so, either this is ONE group that is spoken of in both places under the banner of truth that Revelation is not in chronological order and it has been done this way on purpose or these are two entirely different groups....I believe they are the same group and again why would God need to mark this group for the purpose of protecting them when he already promises to be for his people, hedge about his people, protect his people, etc.....

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't think it's a time marker, I think it's a literal angel. Anyway, all of Revelation can be found in the old testament.... not saying I've found it all.

The utterances of the 7 thunders.........which was SEALED and HIDDEN.....not revealed....can you show us the 7 utterances of the thunders?

 

[KJV1611]

No....I would agree that sometimes, especially those with a heavy Hebrew influence would give a general statement of fact and then later in the chapter or even book would fit out the details....so, either this is ONE group that is spoken of in both places under the banner of truth that Revelation is not in chronological order and it has been done this way on purpose or these are two entirely different groups....I believe they are the same group and again why would God need to mark this group for the purpose of protecting them when he already promises to be for his people, hedge about his people, protect his people, etc.....

Ok I see your point on this, of course I don't agree but that's ok let's move on to the next point.

Do you think Revelation 7:3 is happening during the 6th seal? If no then why is the ascending angel telling the four angels not to hurt the earth.... what does this have to do with Herod killing the baby boys?

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What are they marked for?

They are marked or sealed for two reasons: (1) protection from all judgments coming on the earth at that time and (2) their rapture to Heaven so that they may present themselves faultless before the throne of God.

 

[KJV1611]

They are marked or sealed for two reasons: (1) protection from all judgments coming on the earth at that time and (2) their rapture to Heaven so that they may present themselves faultless before the throne of God.

I agree they’re marked for protection. Rapture I don’t agree with. They are called the firstfruits of Christ, what does that mean in your opinion?

 

[tourist]

Aren't we all pals?

...and can't we all get along?"

 

[KJV1611]

Firstfruits are the first of something that has more coming later.

The firstfruits of a wheat harvest is the first wheat kernels produced by the plant. LATTER in the harvest the full crop comes in.
Exo_34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

The firstfruits of the Spirit are the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we have right now. Later we will get the all of the gifts including the redemption of our bodies.
Rom_8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The fiirstfruits of the dead are the first people to be raised from the dead with more to be raised at a later time.
1Co_15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The firstfruits unto Christ are the first to follow Christ with more followers coming at a later.
Rom_16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Another example of a firstfruit unto Christ - addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints.
1Co_16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

The firstfruits of those begotten (born again) by the word of God are the first of many who will be born again by the word of God at a later time. Another example of firstfruits unto Christ.
Jas_1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Another example of the firstfruits unto Christ (the Lamb). These are one of the first to be redeemed among men with many more coming at a late time.
Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

It should be clear to everyone that the 144000 are some of the first Jewish believers in Christ and that means that those first followers of Christ were in the first century AD... that means that Revelation 6 and 7 (which are in chronological order) happened in the first century AD.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Keep in mind a few things:

--James 1:18 "... a KIND of firstfruit of His creatures [G2938 - ktisma: a creature (a created thing)]…" where KIND [G5100] means A CERTAIN KIND... meaning there is more than one kind of firstfruit ("wheat" is just one of kinds of "firstfruit" [as we see from Lev23])

--the "G2938 - ktisma: a creature [a created thing]" word comes from word "G2936 - ktizó: to build, create" which is used in both Eph2:10 and 2:15 (keeping in mind what 1:20-23 says about "the Church which is His body" and Himself as "HEAD" of that)

--so [using G2936] Ephesians 2:10 states [in part], "For we [the Church which is His body] are His workmanship, having been created IN Christ Jesus for..."

--and Ephesians 2:15 [also using G2936] states [in part], "... so that He might create IN Himself the two into one new man [G444 - anthropos], making peace"

--and considering also the "G4862 - syn - WITH [denoting 'UNION' and/or 'IDENTIFICATION' with]" word, which is used continually with regard to "the Church which is His body" (as opposed to the "G3326 - meta - with ['ACCOMPANYING']" word like is used, for example, of "the TEN [or rather FIVE] virginS" who go in "with [G3326] Him to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [the earthly MK--that is, in mortal bodies, still-living (and existing on the earth) upon His "RETURN" to the earth]--These are NOT who He is "MARRYING" (He will be "returning" to the earth as a "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom" WITH [G4862] His "ALREADY-WED Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" by that point in the chronology. He is NOT "MARRYING" ten nor five virgins [PLURAL]

--keep in mind that "Arnio/Arnion" [Lamb - G721], used throughout Revelation, is used only ONE other time outside of Revelation (so that "unto God and unto the Lamb [Arnio]" has a distinction, in some way, from the "Amnos" [Lamb - G286] used in John 1:29 etc)

--so when we look at the TWO "firstfruit" of Lev23, verses 10-12 and then verse 17 are the two "firstfruit"... and the second one says it involves "TWO LOAVES" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (but of "the Church which is His body" is it said, "ye are UN leavened")

--more, but I'm otta gas for now...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: ...and obviously outta time to correct all my typos ^ (gonna hafta keep using up the band-width, I guess! lol )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't follow you on "having ascended from the rising sun" where does the rising sun com from?

Very good question.

It is worded like "having ascended from [G575 - apo] the rising OF THE sun" (not "from the rising sun" by the way ).

The word "G575 - apo" can be used (is used sometimes) in relation to "TIME," such as in the following verses:

--Revelation 16:18 - "not since [G575] men were upon the earth"

--2 Peter 3:4 - "for since [G575] the fathers fell asleep"

--Colossians 1:9 - "since [G575] the day we heard it"

--Acts 24:11 - "not more than 12 days since [G575] I went up to worship in Jerusalem"

--Acts 15:7 - "... 'Men, brothers, you know that from [G575] the early days God chose among you for the Gentiles to hear by my mouth...'"

--Luke 24:21 - "...this brings the third day since/away from [G575] which these things came to pass"

--Luke 13:25 - "When [or, From G575] once the master of the house has risen..."

--Luke 13:7 - "...throughout [or, from G575] these three years"

--Luke 7:45 - "...since/from [G575] the time I came in..."


… then we can consider the differences (in OT Scriptures) between where it says, "toward the rising of the sun" (in verses describing "LOCATIONS") from that of ones that say, "from the rising of the sun" (where sometimes the context refers to "TIME / DURATION"):

--Joshua 12:1 - "LOCATION"

--Psalm 113:3 - "TIME/DURATION" - "from the rising of the sun, to the going down of the same"

--Isaiah 45:6 (since the verse includes the word/idea of "west/westward" also) - "LOCATION"


See the distinction?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I forgot to mention the other usage in Revelation (along with what I'd put ^ ):

Revelation 16:12 [ylt] -

"And the sixth messenger did pour out his vial upon the great river, the Euphrates, and dried up was its water, that the way of the kings who are from the rising of the sun may be made ready"... which I believe definitely fits into the "LOCATION" category, since the verse also uses the phrase "[in order] that the way of" (i.e. their travel path, which is pertaining to "LOCATION")... as well as the mention of "the great river, the Euphrates...," also a "LOCATION" indication

 

[KJV1611]

^ Keep in mind a few things:

--James 1:18 "... a KIND of firstfruit of His creatures [G2938 - ktisma: a creature (a created thing)]…" where KIND [G5100] means A CERTAIN KIND... meaning there is more than one kind of firstfruit ("wheat" is just one of kinds of "firstfruit" [as we see from Lev23])

That's what I was showing in my post... there are several firstfruits in the bible, firstfruits of Christ, firstfruits from the dead etc. James 1:18 is talking about firstfruits unto Christ the KINDS are Jews and Gentiles.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
--the "G2938 - ktisma: a creature [a created thing]" word comes from word "G2936 - ktizó: to build, create" which is used in both Eph2:10 and 2:15 (keeping in mind what 1:20-23 says about "the Church which is His body" and Himself as "HEAD" of that)

--so [using G2936] Ephesians 2:10 states [in part], "For we [the Church which is His body] are His workmanship, having been created IN Christ Jesus for..."
--and Ephesians 2:15 [also using G2936] states [in part], "... so that He might create IN Himself the two into one new man [G444 - anthropos], making peace"

I'm not sure what your point is here. Eph2 is a generic statement about Jesus reconciling Jews and Gentiles into one new man in Christ... the new creation. that applies to the firstfruits and people of today.

--and considering also the "G4862 - syn - WITH [denoting 'UNION' and/or 'IDENTIFICATION' with]" word, which is used continually with regard to "the Church which is His body" (as opposed to the "G3326 - meta - with ['ACCOMPANYING']" word like is used, for example, of "the TEN [or rather FIVE] virginS" who go in "with [G3326] Him to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [the earthly MK--that is, in mortal bodies, still-living (and existing on the earth) upon His "RETURN" to the earth]--These are NOT who He is "MARRYING" (He will be "returning" to the earth as a "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom" WITH [G4862] His "ALREADY-WED Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" by that point in the chronology. He is NOT "MARRYING" ten nor five virgins [PLURAL]

Again, I don't know what this has to do with firstruits.

--keep in mind that "Arnio/Arnion" [Lamb - G721], used throughout Revelation, is used only ONE other time outside of Revelation (so that "unto God and unto the Lamb [Arnio]" has a distinction, in some way, from the "Amnos" [Lamb - G286] used in John 1:29 etc)

--so when we look at the TWO "firstfruit" of Lev23, verses 10-12 and then verse 17 are the two "firstfruit"... and the second one says it involves "TWO LOAVES" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (but of "the Church which is His body" is it said, "ye are UN leavened")

--more, but I'm otta gas for now...

I don't know anything about Greek it's too confusing are you suggesting that they weren't the firsfruits to Jesus? And I'm not sure what Leviticus 23:17 means, it's during the feast of weeks instead of firstfruits.
I'm outta gas to hopefully my errors aren't too bad.... im not going to proof read it.

 

[KJV1611]

Very good question.

It is worded like "having ascended from [G575 - apo] the rising OF THE sun" (not "from the rising sun" by the way ).

The word "G575 - apo" can be used (is used sometimes) in relation to "TIME," such as in the following verses:

--Revelation 16:18 - "not since [G575] men were upon the earth"

--2 Peter 3:4 - "for since [G575] the fathers fell asleep"

--Colossians 1:9 - "since [G575] the day we heard it"

--Acts 24:11 - "not more than 12 days since [G575] I went up to worship in Jerusalem"

--Acts 15:7 - "... 'Men, brothers, you know that from [G575] the early days God chose among you for the Gentiles to hear by my mouth...'"

--Luke 24:21 - "...this brings the third day since/away from [G575] which these things came to pass"

--Luke 13:25 - "When [or, From G575] once the master of the house has risen..."

--Luke 13:7 - "...throughout [or, from G575] these three years"

--Luke 7:45 - "...since/from [G575] the time I came in..."


… then we can consider the differences (in OT Scriptures) between where it says, "toward the rising of the sun" (in verses describing "LOCATIONS") from that of ones that say, "from the rising of the sun" (where sometimes the context refers to "TIME / DURATION"):

--Joshua 12:1 - "LOCATION"

--Psalm 113:3 - "TIME/DURATION" - "from the rising of the sun, to the going down of the same"

--Isaiah 45:6 (since the verse includes the word/idea of "west/westward" also) - "LOCATION"


See the distinction?

Yes I see. It seems like it is less confusing to read it in our own language though.