The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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brightfame52

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Please note that 1 John 5:1 does not say "Whosoever is believing that Jesus is the Christ was born of God:" But "Whosoever is believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."
This means that this text is not a poof text for either position. Believing could happen at the same time as being born of God, or being born again could happen before believing. The Greek text is not clear one way or the other.

John 3:16 ... that all those believing (pas ho pisteuOn) in him should not perish (at any moment during that time) [2nd aorist middle subjunctive], but should keep on having [Present active Subjunctive) aeonous life.

In other words, " ... that all those believing (pas ho pisteuOn) in him should not perish (at any moment during the time they are believing) [2nd aorist middle subjunctive], but should keep on having [Present active Subjunctive) aeonous life (during the time they are believing).

According to the Greek here, having aeonous life is a consequence of believing.
The Grek here does not indicate that believing is a consequence of having aeonous life.
Being born of God precedes believing. The natural man cannot believe. Jn 3:16 excludes unbelievers, its focus is on the believing ones.
 

PaulThomson

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I try not to ignore any of the scriptures, because they all have to harmonize to understand Christ's doctrine.

God's elect, even though Christ redeemed them from their sins on the cross, and promised them an eternal inheritance, are born into this world, by natural birth, as children of wrath, and at sometime in their life quickens them to a new spiritual life.
That is not exegesis of the text. Please, how step by step from the text cited in 2 Tim:1-7 how each verse concurs with your claims as to it's meaning.

This is how the debate ran -

And here 1 Pet 4:19

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Also notice Paul said He Christ was delivered for Our sins according to the Will of God and Our Father !

This expressly tells us that Christ died for the Children of God, God was their Father, when Christ gave Himself for them and their sins ! They were always Gods children, He was always their Father, that is why He Loved them so, to give His Only Begotten Son for them, their Elder Brother ! When He came to die for their sins, He was made Like unto His Brethren scripture says here Heb 2:17
:rolleyes: ... nope. Ephesians 2 tells us that prior to being born again, all believers were children of wrath ...

Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

... which is why mankind needs the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.


And it is not until we believe that Jesus is Messiah ... then we are born of God:

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

please note that 1 John 5:1 does not state that we are born of God and then believe Jesus is Messiah ...

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
Please note that 1 John 5:1 does not say whosoever will believe, which eliminates the natural man. Believeth is present tense. It is also the same wording in John 3:16.
Why are you ignoring Eph 2:2-3 ?
How do you exegete 1 Timothy 2:1 ?

I believe the scriptures to teach that God has power over all of humanity (Dan 4:35) and that he accomplishes all of his will. God does not plan things, He purpose's things.

I believe God has given mankind the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives as they sojourn here in this world, and he saw that none would seek him, no, not one, both his elect (Eph 1:4) and those that are not his elect.

God gave his elect to his Son that he would redeem them from their sins on the cross, which he accomplished, and promised them an eternal inheritance (John 6:37-49).

1 Tim 2:1-4 - Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to charge some members of the church, that they should teach no other doctrine (1 Tim 1:3).

I believe the scriptures to teach that the elect (church) should obey those that have the rule over them as they sojourn here on earth, unless it conflicts with God' laws. The "all men" in 1 Tim 2:1, refers to those government men who have authority over them, that the church might lead a quit and peaceful life.

"Saved" in verse 4 means delivered, according to Greek translation. The "all men" in verse 4 refers to all of those men that are teaching another doctrine to be delivered from their ignorance of their knowledge of the truth.

There is a deliverance (salvation) here on earth, when a babe in Christ comes unto a knowledge of the truth. Another example of this is recorded in Rom 10:1-3.
Firstly, again, this is not exegesis of 1 Tim 2:1-7. It is simply you expressing your opinions and appending a few scripture references to them.
Secondly, in your ignoring Eph. 2:2-3 in your earlier response above, I accidentally inferred tht you agreed with Brightflame's claim that the elect have always been God's children? I think I made a mistake in that inference. Is that the case?
 

PaulThomson

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John 3:16 ... that all those believing (pas ho pisteuOn) in him should not perish (at any moment during that time) [2nd aorist middle subjunctive], but should keep on having [Present active Subjunctive) aeonous life.

In other words, " ... that all those believing (pas ho pisteuOn) in him should not perish (at any moment during the time they are believing) [2nd aorist middle subjunctive], but should keep on having [Present active Subjunctive) aeonous life (during the time they are believing).

According to the Greek here, having aeonous life is a consequence of believing.
The Greek here does not indicate that believing is a consequence of having aeonous life.
Being born of God precedes believing. The natural man cannot believe. Jn 3:16 excludes unbelievers, its focus is on the believing ones.
I can create a sentence with the exact same grammer to prove my point re John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but should have aeonous life.

For the company CEO prized his staff so much that he paid top dollar so that whosoever is participating in the company cruise should not be disappointed at any point, but should keep on having a fantastic time.

Now, can we infer from this similar sentence that it was the CEO's purpose that having a fantastic time precedes or causes participating in the cruise? Or does the CEO intend that participating in the cruise precedes or causes having a fantastic time.

Clearly, the grammar means that only one of these makes sense.

So, we can logically conclude from the grammar that God purposed that believing should precede or cause having eternal life, and not that having eternal life precede or cause believing.

Brightfame, can you or any of your calvinish fellow-travelers devise a sentence with the same grammatical structure as John 3:16 that reverses the implied temporal order.
 

brightfame52

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That is not exegesis of the text. Please, how step by step from the text cited in 2 Tim:1-7 how each verse concurs with your claims as to it's meaning.

This is how the debate ran -











Firstly, again, this is not exegesis of 1 Tim 2:1-7. It is simply you expressing your opinions and appending a few scripture references to them.
Secondly, in your ignoring Eph. 2:2-3 in your earlier response above, I accidentally inferred tht you agreed with Brightflame's claim that the elect have always been God's children? I think I made a mistake in that inference. Is that the case?
Im not exegeting anything for you, I have put in my time and effort into this thread already, but you oppose the truths therein. Im not your do boy, you just reject the truth I have already explained, thats on you.
 

brightfame52

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I can create a sentence with the exact same grammer to prove my point re John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but should have aeonous life.

For the company CEO prized his staff so much that he paid top dollar so that whosoever is participating in the company cruise should not be disappointed at any point, but should keep on having a fantastic time.

Now, can we infer from this similar sentence that it was the CEO's purpose that having a fantastic time precedes or causes participating in the cruise? Or does the CEO intend that participating in the cruise precedes or causes having a fantastic time.

Clearly, the grammar means that only one of these makes sense.

So, we can logically conclude from the grammar that God purposed that believing should precede or cause having eternal life, and not that having eternal life precede or cause believing.

Brightfame, can you or any of your calvinish fellow-travelers devise a sentence with the same grammatical structure as John 3:16 that reverses the implied temporal order.
Jn 3:16 is about them believing, thats who God so loved in the world, it pertains not to the non elect unbelievers who shall perish. And 1 Jn 5:1 points out that those believing had been born again first.

The natural man in the flesh cant believe, cant come to Christ, cant please God, cant hear spiritually, cant see spiritually, hard hearted and on and on, even dead in sin.
 

ForestGreenCook

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That is not exegesis of the text. Please, how step by step from the text cited in 2 Tim:1-7 how each verse concurs with your claims as to it's meaning.

This is how the debate ran -











Firstly, again, this is not exegesis of 1 Tim 2:1-7. It is simply you expressing your opinions and appending a few scripture references to them.
Secondly, in your ignoring Eph. 2:2-3 in your earlier response above, I accidentally inferred tht you agreed with Brightflame's claim that the elect have always been God's children? I think I made a mistake in that inference. Is that the case?

I do not have insight into Brightflame's mind, but by reading his post's, I don't think you made a mistake in thinking my thoughts, concerning the elect, are different than his.

God chose his elect before he formed the world, and they are, and will always be, his elect I believe the scriptures teach that all of mankind are born into this world with the burden of Adam's sin, and are the children of wrath, even as others, but they are still God's elect, even when they were filled with wrath.

All of his elect, at sometime in their life, are quickened to a new spiritual life, and only his elect. The elect do not get rid of their fleshly nature (children of wrath) when they are born again, and are tempted at times to commit a sin which separates themselves from their fellowship with God, temporary until they repent, because God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on his only begotten Son as he was bearing our sin's on the cross.
 

ForestGreenCook

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That is not exegesis of the text. Please, how step by step from the text cited in 2 Tim:1-7 how each verse concurs with your claims as to it's meaning.

This is how the debate ran -











Firstly, again, this is not exegesis of 1 Tim 2:1-7. It is simply you expressing your opinions and appending a few scripture references to them.
Secondly, in your ignoring Eph. 2:2-3 in your earlier response above, I accidentally inferred tht you agreed with Brightflame's claim that the elect have always been God's children? I think I made a mistake in that inference. Is that the case?
My 89 year old mind, sometimes, does not comprehend the meaning of some word's. What is the meaning of the word "exegesis" I claim 1 Cor 1:26-31 as my defense.
 

PaulThomson

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My 89 year old mind, sometimes, does not comprehend the meaning of some word's. What is the meaning of the word "exegesis" I claim 1 Cor 1:26-31 as my defense.
Exegesis is showing how one derives one's understanding of a text by ldemonstrating the flow of the text's argument and inking all parts of that text and its immediate context to one's expressed understanding of its meaning.

It is not exegesis to cite a few selected verses or phrases lifted out of the immediate context and to expect those fragments to suffice as proof that what one believes those fragments teach is what those fragments actually teach.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Exegesis is showing how one derives one's understanding of a text by demonstrating the flow of the text's argument and linking all parts of that text and its immediate context to one's expressed understanding of its meaning.

It is not exegesis to cite a few selected verses or phrases lifted out of the immediate context and other places in the bible and to expect those fragments to suffice as proof that what one believes those fragments teach is what those fragments actually teach.
 
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10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death[Cross, Blood] of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

... This Reconciliation by the Cross of Christ takes place without our Faith, without our consent, in fact without our knowledge of it, but while in ignorance.
The word "reconciled" in Romans 5:10 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
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Mar 23, 2016
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Please note that 1 John 5:1 does not say whosoever will believe, which eliminates the natural man. Believeth is present tense.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Yes, present tense ... active voice ... which means it is the person who is believing ... if the word was in the passive voice, that would align more closely to your dogma.




ForestGreenCook said:
It is also the same wording in John 3:16.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again, the word "believeth" is present tense ... active voice ...

You want to change the active voice to passive but that is not what the Author of Scripture wrote.
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:rolleyes: ... the word "perish" in 2 Peter 3:9 is translated from the Greek word apóllymi which means to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery (Thayer's Greek Lexicon).
Thayer's points out under 1) different uses of the word "perish" noted in a), b), c), d), e), & f). You chose to use e).

By using your choice
That was Thayer's choice / rendering. Thayer's renderd the word apóllymi in 2 Peter 3:9 as meaning to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery.

(b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: ... 2 Peter 3:9.




ForestGreenCook said:
The interpretation of 2 Pet 3:9, as I have explained it, holds true.
:rolleyes: ... under your rendering, those who "have obtained like precious faith" can apóllymi ... incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery.


According to 2 Peter 3:9, God's desire is that all mankind come to repentence. However, God's justice requires all mankind to come to Him through the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The only way to not perish is to not reject God's provision.
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:rolleyes: ... if they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, they are not born again.
Give me a scripture that is in harmony with your statement.
Read John 3. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke to Nicodemus about being born again:

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



Paul, speaking to the jailer in Acts 16:

Acts 16:27-32 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

a person hears the gospel of Christ.

Because the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe, once a person believes the gospel, he or she is born again through the power of God.

The moment a person is born again, he or she is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13).

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, you believed

after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated)
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Mar 23, 2016
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Im not exegeting anything
correct … you eisegete

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.
The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.
Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.
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brightfame52

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Christ has abolished death by His death !

2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

See the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23, and because Christ has taken away the sins of those He died for, for them death has been abolished !

This is a True Gospel fact, all for whom He died, Gods Elect 2 Tim 2:10 have had for them death abolished [its the Gift of God] through Christ. Now the word abolished here in the text is the greek word katargeó and means:

(a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, cancel abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.
to bring to a end,

here are how some of the other translations define it :

but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.NIV

and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,ESV


but now made visible through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus. He has broken the power of death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel!NET

but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and has brought life and incorruption to light through the gospel,Jubilee Bible 2000

but now [that extraordinary purpose and grace] has been fully disclosed and realized by us through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus who [through His incarnation and earthly ministry] abolished death [making it null and void] and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Now understand, everyone Christ tasted death for, every man Heb 2:9, He as their Saviour abolished death for them, and consequently as evidence, they must be made alive from spiritual death, which death was due to sin Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened[made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Thats why He is Our Saviour, He makes us alive from Spiritual Death, its the Gift of God.

At His Resurrection He officially for them becomes a Lifegiving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Thats because, by His death for their sins, putting them away Heb 9:26

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He put away the consequence of their sins, which was death, and quickens them to life as proof, verification that death for them has been abolished by Him their Saviour !

Folks its impossible for Christ to have died for someone and they are not made alive unto God because He for them abolished death ! 46
 

brightfame52

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Exegesis is showing how one derives one's understanding of a text by ldemonstrating the flow of the text's argument and inking all parts of that text and its immediate context to one's expressed understanding of its meaning.

It is not exegesis to cite a few selected verses or phrases lifted out of the immediate context and to expect those fragments to suffice as proof that what one believes those fragments teach is what those fragments actually teach.
I think exegeting is appropriate for them that already believe, but they need to grow in grace and knowledge, its for a Pastor Teacher to do. You however are in opposition to truth that has already been clearly presented on the atonement of Christ and what it accomplished, yet you oppose it.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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The word "reconciled" in Romans 5:10 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
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I know what the word reconciled means, you just wasting time here.
 

rogerg

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He put away the consequence of their sins, which was death, and quickens them to life as proof, verification that death for them has been abolished by Him their Saviour !

Folks its impossible for Christ to have died for someone and they are not made alive unto God because He for them abolished death ! 46
Absolutely correct, brightfame52 - they just can't bring themselves to believe that Jesus Christ alone, fully, completely and in all ways, is the Saviour and that man is not.
 

PaulThomson

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I think exegeting is appropriate for them that already believe, but they need to grow in grace and knowledge, its for a Pastor Teacher to do. You however are in opposition to truth that has already been clearly presented on the atonement of Christ and what it accomplished, yet you oppose it.
Are you of the opinion that the responsibility toward scripture of Christians who are not Pastor-teachers is only to sit as pew-parrots and recite concerning scripture whatever doctrine their Pastor-teacher trains them to say.about scripture?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Exegesis is showing how one derives one's understanding of a text by ldemonstrating the flow of the text's argument and inking all parts of that text and its immediate context to one's expressed understanding of its meaning.

It is not exegesis to cite a few selected verses or phrases lifted out of the immediate context and to expect those fragments to suffice as proof that what one believes those fragments teach is what those fragments actually teach.
Sorry, I still stand upon the fact that scripture will bring out the true meaning of Christ's doctrine by comparing them with each other with the result of all scriptures harmonizing.

My desire is to know the truth of what Jesus taught and to try, the best I can, to teach others, and follow his commandments.