The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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Rather than rip Titus 2:14 from the context within which it sits to propound your dogma let's read Titus 2:14 in the context God intended:
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
vs 11 - God's grace which brings salvation has been revealed to all men ... (not just a few men or those brightfame52 refers to as "all for whom Christ died" aka "elect").
vs 12 - God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust so we live soberly, righteously, godly, in this world.
vs 13 - we look with great anticipation for the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
vs 14 - the Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for us (the all men of vs 11) to redeem us (the all men of vs 11) from all iniquity and purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
vs 15 - we are to speak these truths, exhort others with the truth, rebuke those who speak error and/or practice ungodliness. Let no man despise you. Those who despise truth will reap the consequence of their turning from God.
You're as far off base in your rendering of Scripture here as you were when you claimed that Caiaphas uttered words "by the inspiration of God" ...
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
vs 11 - God's grace which brings salvation has been revealed to all men ... (not just a few men or those brightfame52 refers to as "all for whom Christ died" aka "elect").
vs 12 - God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust so we live soberly, righteously, godly, in this world.
vs 13 - we look with great anticipation for the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
vs 14 - the Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for us (the all men of vs 11) to redeem us (the all men of vs 11) from all iniquity and purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
vs 15 - we are to speak these truths, exhort others with the truth, rebuke those who speak error and/or practice ungodliness. Let no man despise you. Those who despise truth will reap the consequence of their turning from God.
You're as far off base in your rendering of Scripture here as you were when you claimed that Caiaphas uttered words "by the inspiration of God" ...
Did Christ's Death succeed its purpose ? 3
More scripture giving the purpose and results of Christ's Death, that those He died for will serve Him ! 2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Remember the words of the Psalmist Ps 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
That word serve means :
to cause to serve as subjects
to labour, work, do work
2) to work for another, serve another by labour
3) to serve as subjects
4) to serve (God)
to compel to labour or work, cause to labour, cause to serve
And Jesus said Jn 12:26
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Now that any man[who serves] will be of that seed Ps 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
That word seed means:
offspring, descendants as in Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
That seed is all for whom He died or whom His soul was made an offering for sin for !
And Paul writes 2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
The Apostle perceives the Love of Christ, which moved Him to give Himself for His Body the Church [His Seed] Eph 5:25, and that He died for all [The Seed], and the All He died for, died [judicially] with Him, and so they were as He was, all dead. Purpose being:
That we which live, the we being, the all that died with Him, should not live unto themselves in the flesh, as servants of sin, but unto Him that died for them [ Christ their Surety] !
Paul here just described the fruit of Christ's Death, it produces servants for Him. The same exact thing is taught in Titus 2:14, the end of His Redemptive Death produces a People zealous of Good Works !
More scripture giving the purpose and results of Christ's Death, that those He died for will serve Him ! 2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Remember the words of the Psalmist Ps 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
That word serve means :
to cause to serve as subjects
to labour, work, do work
2) to work for another, serve another by labour
3) to serve as subjects
4) to serve (God)
to compel to labour or work, cause to labour, cause to serve
And Jesus said Jn 12:26
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Now that any man[who serves] will be of that seed Ps 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
That word seed means:
offspring, descendants as in Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
That seed is all for whom He died or whom His soul was made an offering for sin for !
And Paul writes 2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
The Apostle perceives the Love of Christ, which moved Him to give Himself for His Body the Church [His Seed] Eph 5:25, and that He died for all [The Seed], and the All He died for, died [judicially] with Him, and so they were as He was, all dead. Purpose being:
That we which live, the we being, the all that died with Him, should not live unto themselves in the flesh, as servants of sin, but unto Him that died for them [ Christ their Surety] !
Paul here just described the fruit of Christ's Death, it produces servants for Him. The same exact thing is taught in Titus 2:14, the end of His Redemptive Death produces a People zealous of Good Works !
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Rather than rip Titus 2:14 from the context within which it sits to propound your dogma let's read Titus 2:14 in the context God intended:
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
vs 11 - God's grace which brings salvation has been revealed to all men ... (not just a few men or those brightfame52 refers to as "all for whom Christ died" aka "elect").
vs 12 - God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust so we live soberly, righteously, godly, in this world.
vs 13 - we look with great anticipation for the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
vs 14 - the Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for us (the all men of vs 11) to redeem us (the all men of vs 11) from all iniquity and purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
vs 15 - we are to speak these truths, exhort others with the truth, rebuke those who speak error and/or practice ungodliness. Let no man despise you. Those who despise truth will reap the consequence of their turning from God.
You're as far off base in your rendering of Scripture here as you were when you claimed that Caiaphas uttered words "by the inspiration of God" ...
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
vs 11 - God's grace which brings salvation has been revealed to all men ... (not just a few men or those brightfame52 refers to as "all for whom Christ died" aka "elect").
vs 12 - God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust so we live soberly, righteously, godly, in this world.
vs 13 - we look with great anticipation for the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
vs 14 - the Lord Jesus Christ gave Himself for us (the all men of vs 11) to redeem us (the all men of vs 11) from all iniquity and purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
vs 15 - we are to speak these truths, exhort others with the truth, rebuke those who speak error and/or practice ungodliness. Let no man despise you. Those who despise truth will reap the consequence of their turning from God.
You're as far off base in your rendering of Scripture here as you were when you claimed that Caiaphas uttered words "by the inspiration of God" ...
Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience !
All those that the Jesus Christ I know and serve, all for whom He died, in His obedience, and because He represented them [those He died for] by that obedience of His, which is also His Faithfulness to that Eternal Covenant which He became the Surety unto Death, by this He made them all Righteous. Yes, all of them have His obedience or faithfulness or faith imputed to them ! All those Christ died for stand before God, even when they themselves are but faithless, unbelieving, enemies, they stand before God with the Faith and obedience of Christ imputed to them ! Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
All those that the Jesus Christ I know and serve, all for whom He died, in His obedience, and because He represented them [those He died for] by that obedience of His, which is also His Faithfulness to that Eternal Covenant which He became the Surety unto Death, by this He made them all Righteous. Yes, all of them have His obedience or faithfulness or faith imputed to them ! All those Christ died for stand before God, even when they themselves are but faithless, unbelieving, enemies, they stand before God with the Faith and obedience of Christ imputed to them ! Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Exactly. But the false gospel of Calvinism cannot abide the fact that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and that the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world. So they have spun a fantasy called "Limited Atonement" which is a a part of the fantasy called TULIP. But you can apply the Domino Theory to TULIP. If one false idea of TULIP fails, then the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. So if the Atonement is indeed unlimited (which it is), then TULIP is totally worthless.
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The Titus passage above that's been referenced clearly states what I'm explaining.
1) All mankind is from Adam. Adam is from the dust. Mankind = earth.
2) The Messiah died and His blood fertilizes all the earth.
3) Almighty's word is the seed planted in the earth...remember what earth is. He intends to harvest from the earth His specific crop.
4) From the earth grows the crop of the seed He planted. And only God knows from where in the earth that crop will spring.
Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee
"all men..." = earth
"Peculiar people" = specific crop
...And He definitely didn't die for the tares the enemy sowed.
1) All mankind is from Adam. Adam is from the dust. Mankind = earth.
2) The Messiah died and His blood fertilizes all the earth.
3) Almighty's word is the seed planted in the earth...remember what earth is. He intends to harvest from the earth His specific crop.
4) From the earth grows the crop of the seed He planted. And only God knows from where in the earth that crop will spring.
Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee
"all men..." = earth
"Peculiar people" = specific crop
...And He definitely didn't die for the tares the enemy sowed.
I disagree with your analysis of a figure of speech.
Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee
"all men..." = earth
"Peculiar people" = specific crop
...And He definitely didn't die for the tares the enemy sowed.[/QUOTE]
Yes, He did. Very clear verses that actually say that.
I'm going out in a bit, and don't have time now to present all the verses. I'll do that when I get back.
Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee
"all men..." = earth
"Peculiar people" = specific crop
...And He definitely didn't die for the tares the enemy sowed.[/QUOTE]
Yes, He did. Very clear verses that actually say that.
I'm going out in a bit, and don't have time now to present all the verses. I'll do that when I get back.
I said to Yahshua:
"OK, so you believe that Jesus Christ didn't die for everyone in humanity.
What verses would clearly teach that?
Thanks."
And, the response didn't support his view that Christ's death wasn't for everyone.
Let's see what the Bible actually says about the subject.
John 10:11 - “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
John 10:15 - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep."
In this same context, Jesus also says there are sheep that are "His" (v.14), and "other sheep of His" (v.16) and even "those who are not His sheep" (v.26)
So in the context of "the" sheep, there are sheep that are His (saved Jews), other sheep of His (saved Gentiles) and "those not His sheep" (unbelievers).
Therefore, it should be quite obvious that "the sheep" refers to everyone.
Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature. If Calvin was right, this makes no sense.
John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone (pas) who beholds and believes on the Son may have eternal life.
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him. The subjunctive mood means potential.
John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.
John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9
Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’
Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass (Adam’s Fall) was condemnation for all (pas) men, so also the result of one act of righteousness (Cross) was justification that brings life for all (pas) men. [Adam’s fall affects the entire human race, and Christ’s atonement also affects the entire human race]
Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.
2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.
1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 salvation is potential for all humanity!
1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.
Now to you: what verse(s) clearly indicates that Christ didn't die for everyone?
"OK, so you believe that Jesus Christ didn't die for everyone in humanity.
What verses would clearly teach that?
Thanks."
And, the response didn't support his view that Christ's death wasn't for everyone.
Let's see what the Bible actually says about the subject.
John 10:11 - “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
John 10:15 - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep."
In this same context, Jesus also says there are sheep that are "His" (v.14), and "other sheep of His" (v.16) and even "those who are not His sheep" (v.26)
So in the context of "the" sheep, there are sheep that are His (saved Jews), other sheep of His (saved Gentiles) and "those not His sheep" (unbelievers).
Therefore, it should be quite obvious that "the sheep" refers to everyone.
Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature. If Calvin was right, this makes no sense.
John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone (pas) who beholds and believes on the Son may have eternal life.
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him. The subjunctive mood means potential.
John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.
John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9
Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’
Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass (Adam’s Fall) was condemnation for all (pas) men, so also the result of one act of righteousness (Cross) was justification that brings life for all (pas) men. [Adam’s fall affects the entire human race, and Christ’s atonement also affects the entire human race]
Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.
2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.
1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 salvation is potential for all humanity!
1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.
Now to you: what verse(s) clearly indicates that Christ didn't die for everyone?
That's some sleight of hand with the verses... If we post the chapter's verses in order, it clearly says the Messiah lays down His life for His sheep, but not for those who are not His sheep.
John 10:15-16; 25-28
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
I don't care about Calvin but what the scriptures say.
Nothing wrong with preaching the gospel to every creature. That's the mission. Remember I said that the Almighty's seed is the Word and mankind is the earth. Some seed will fall on the dry ground never taking root, some will be choked by thorns, some will be snatched away by fowls...but a few will take root in fertile ground and spring forth a harvest 30, 60, 100 fold (Matt 13:3-8).
The Almighty seeks His harvest. The Messiah died for those who believe in Him.
It doesn't say "everyone" without qualification, but "everyone WHO believes". The Messiah didn't die for those who don't believe. They are not His sheep (John 10:26).
Indeed, every knee shall bow, both friend and foe. This will be fulfilled at the Great White Throne Judgment.
The message shared is different from the death suffered. John is sent as a witness to all. Again, the seed goes out everywhere so that it might; potentially take root ("whosoever"). But there are - and will be - those who refuse. Those who do refuse are not His sheep and so He didn't die for them.
All sin will be eradicated and the world will be saved. 1st advent was to justify and sanctify His sheep. The 2nd advent will be to destroy His enemies.
This prayer was made in the garden on behalf of His sleeping disciples and those of His sheep in the world (His sheep "not of this fold") who will hear His word preached through them.
I don't support Calvinism. The world has an opportunity to accept the seed. Not all will. For those who do not, The Messiah's death wasn't' for them. The wage of sin is death. If one doesn't accept the Messiah the wage must be paid by that person. They are not saved by the Messiah's death on the cross. The Messiah's death is only for His sheep, those who believe Him.
This is a requirement for all.
The proper context is established in the first two verses of the chapter.
Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The gift (of Messiah's atonement) doesn't automatically reach all. It's only given to those who have faith. Salvation by grace through faith.
He MAY have mercy on them all. It's up to them.
You're employing eisegesis instead of exegesis. Sounds logical, but it's not the context.
Truly the Son of man came to save the lost, but Romans 11:5-7 says there is a remnant of Israel who wasn't "blinded" to the truth like the rest of Israel. Paul is one such person, as well as the Apostles. So they wouldn't be considered "lost". Calvinism has this point correct, generally speaking (even though they may be incorrect in "who" the elect actually is).
This is the same as what I mentioned in my earlier post.
1) All mankind is from Adam. Adam is from the dust. Mankind = earth (Genesis).
2) The Messiah died and His blood fertilizes all the earth (2 Cor 5:14)
3) Almighty's word is the seed planted in the earth. He intends to harvest from the earth His specific crop. (Paul and disciples PREACHING the gospel; 2 Cor 5:19)
4) From the earth grows the crop of the seed He planted. And only God knows from where in the earth that crop will spring. (2 Cor 5:17 - IF IF IF anyone is in Christ He is a new creature...)
John 10:15-16; 25-28
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
I don't care about Calvin but what the scriptures say.
Nothing wrong with preaching the gospel to every creature. That's the mission. Remember I said that the Almighty's seed is the Word and mankind is the earth. Some seed will fall on the dry ground never taking root, some will be choked by thorns, some will be snatched away by fowls...but a few will take root in fertile ground and spring forth a harvest 30, 60, 100 fold (Matt 13:3-8).
The Almighty seeks His harvest. The Messiah died for those who believe in Him.
It doesn't say "everyone" without qualification, but "everyone WHO believes". The Messiah didn't die for those who don't believe. They are not His sheep (John 10:26).
Indeed, every knee shall bow, both friend and foe. This will be fulfilled at the Great White Throne Judgment.
The message shared is different from the death suffered. John is sent as a witness to all. Again, the seed goes out everywhere so that it might; potentially take root ("whosoever"). But there are - and will be - those who refuse. Those who do refuse are not His sheep and so He didn't die for them.
All sin will be eradicated and the world will be saved. 1st advent was to justify and sanctify His sheep. The 2nd advent will be to destroy His enemies.
This prayer was made in the garden on behalf of His sleeping disciples and those of His sheep in the world (His sheep "not of this fold") who will hear His word preached through them.
I don't support Calvinism. The world has an opportunity to accept the seed. Not all will. For those who do not, The Messiah's death wasn't' for them. The wage of sin is death. If one doesn't accept the Messiah the wage must be paid by that person. They are not saved by the Messiah's death on the cross. The Messiah's death is only for His sheep, those who believe Him.
This is a requirement for all.
The proper context is established in the first two verses of the chapter.
Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The gift (of Messiah's atonement) doesn't automatically reach all. It's only given to those who have faith. Salvation by grace through faith.
He MAY have mercy on them all. It's up to them.
You're employing eisegesis instead of exegesis. Sounds logical, but it's not the context.
Truly the Son of man came to save the lost, but Romans 11:5-7 says there is a remnant of Israel who wasn't "blinded" to the truth like the rest of Israel. Paul is one such person, as well as the Apostles. So they wouldn't be considered "lost". Calvinism has this point correct, generally speaking (even though they may be incorrect in "who" the elect actually is).
This is the same as what I mentioned in my earlier post.
1) All mankind is from Adam. Adam is from the dust. Mankind = earth (Genesis).
2) The Messiah died and His blood fertilizes all the earth (2 Cor 5:14)
3) Almighty's word is the seed planted in the earth. He intends to harvest from the earth His specific crop. (Paul and disciples PREACHING the gospel; 2 Cor 5:19)
4) From the earth grows the crop of the seed He planted. And only God knows from where in the earth that crop will spring. (2 Cor 5:17 - IF IF IF anyone is in Christ He is a new creature...)
Faith > Grace > Salvation
It's not a foregone conclusion. Faith in Messiah - on the part of the person - activates the grace that affects the atonement. Christ suffered death...but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person.
Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for His purpose--even the wicked for the day of disaster.
The atonement affects salvation from destruction/condemnation. If everyone was atoned for - including those not his sheep - then there wouldn't be a prophesied destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire at the end of days because the payment would already be covered without our need to have faith in it.
It's not a foregone conclusion. Faith in Messiah - on the part of the person - activates the grace that affects the atonement. Christ suffered death...but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person.
Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for His purpose--even the wicked for the day of disaster.
The atonement affects salvation from destruction/condemnation. If everyone was atoned for - including those not his sheep - then there wouldn't be a prophesied destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire at the end of days because the payment would already be covered without our need to have faith in it.
HI Yashua,
I was surprised to read this:
You said "It's not a foregone conclusion. Faith in Messiah - on the part of the person - activates the grace that affects the atonement. Christ suffered death...but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person."
First of all, I must respectfully disagree and I don't think this can be supported in scripture.
If I my car breaks down in a blizzard and a sheriff stops and says "Here, come into my car and get warm!" And I say, "Oh no I've called my husband he is coming soon--I will wait for him." Then the sheriff says "How long has it been? If you stay here much longer you will freeze to death!"I then decide it would be wise to accept his offer." In what way would I be activating his gracious offer whether I accepted or declined? The gracious offer was extended, but I in no way activated it.
You also said but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person."
If a soldier goes into battle he is going into battle for the whole country--his fighting and dying is for the whole country, not just some. Think how many died in the World War 2, --a war many were against. Regardless the soldier died for the whole country whether they had faith in him or not.
And I'll put it another way. There is a ship wreck--another ship comes by and yells to the passengers, "Swim to us and we will save you ALL! "The offer was made to all who were drowning, but only those who swim for the ship will make it. There faith or lack of faith in the ship's captain does not negate the offer.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."--John 3:16
The most well known verse in all of Christendom said he died for ALL. Salvation is simply repenting and believing--some choose to believe, some don't. Regardless ,the gift of eternal life is offered to ALL who will accept it.
I was surprised to read this:
You said "It's not a foregone conclusion. Faith in Messiah - on the part of the person - activates the grace that affects the atonement. Christ suffered death...but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person."
First of all, I must respectfully disagree and I don't think this can be supported in scripture.
If I my car breaks down in a blizzard and a sheriff stops and says "Here, come into my car and get warm!" And I say, "Oh no I've called my husband he is coming soon--I will wait for him." Then the sheriff says "How long has it been? If you stay here much longer you will freeze to death!"I then decide it would be wise to accept his offer." In what way would I be activating his gracious offer whether I accepted or declined? The gracious offer was extended, but I in no way activated it.
You also said but without faith from the recipient, Christ didn't die for the person."
If a soldier goes into battle he is going into battle for the whole country--his fighting and dying is for the whole country, not just some. Think how many died in the World War 2, --a war many were against. Regardless the soldier died for the whole country whether they had faith in him or not.
And I'll put it another way. There is a ship wreck--another ship comes by and yells to the passengers, "Swim to us and we will save you ALL! "The offer was made to all who were drowning, but only those who swim for the ship will make it. There faith or lack of faith in the ship's captain does not negate the offer.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."--John 3:16
The most well known verse in all of Christendom said he died for ALL. Salvation is simply repenting and believing--some choose to believe, some don't. Regardless ,the gift of eternal life is offered to ALL who will accept it.
Hi Laura,
The Messiah's death and the Messiah's covering of blood are two different acts. We speak about the cross as if it's one complete act (because it's easy to do) but it's not a single step. No one is covered by Messiah until they accept the Messiah by faith. The atonement didn't occur at the death of Messiah on the cross, but after He resurrected back to life and ascended to heaven with His blood to minister in the heavenly tabernacle as High Priest on behalf of the people.
When we recall the temple service, a person was meant to take his sacrifice to the priest and confess over it his house's sins, AND THEN the priest ministered the act of forgiveness by killing the animal and sprinkling its blood on the altar. Elevated to the heavenly, the High Priest waits until the person confesses their sins to Him, and then He ministers with His blood to forgive their sin. This requires having faith in there being a High Priest (Messiah) in heaven to perform this act since we can't see it happening with our eyes.
In your examples, the atonement would be you entering into the car or the boat, not the offer of your entering into them (as the car and boat actually cover you from exposure to the elements). Atonement = covering. It wouldn't matter how long the sheriff or ship has been there waiting for your to accept the offer, the covering only happens when you trust and step in.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
The operative phrase is "for the person", as in "in his stead"...the act of atonement and substitution. As you post the passage below...
He dies for whosoever believes in Him as "the sacrificial lamb for sin". The passage continues by saying whosoever does not believe in Him stands "already condemned" as that person doesn't have a sacrifice to offer for their sin, and so must pay for their sins on their own with their death & destruction.
The Messiah's death and the Messiah's covering of blood are two different acts. We speak about the cross as if it's one complete act (because it's easy to do) but it's not a single step. No one is covered by Messiah until they accept the Messiah by faith. The atonement didn't occur at the death of Messiah on the cross, but after He resurrected back to life and ascended to heaven with His blood to minister in the heavenly tabernacle as High Priest on behalf of the people.
When we recall the temple service, a person was meant to take his sacrifice to the priest and confess over it his house's sins, AND THEN the priest ministered the act of forgiveness by killing the animal and sprinkling its blood on the altar. Elevated to the heavenly, the High Priest waits until the person confesses their sins to Him, and then He ministers with His blood to forgive their sin. This requires having faith in there being a High Priest (Messiah) in heaven to perform this act since we can't see it happening with our eyes.
In your examples, the atonement would be you entering into the car or the boat, not the offer of your entering into them (as the car and boat actually cover you from exposure to the elements). Atonement = covering. It wouldn't matter how long the sheriff or ship has been there waiting for your to accept the offer, the covering only happens when you trust and step in.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
The operative phrase is "for the person", as in "in his stead"...the act of atonement and substitution. As you post the passage below...
He dies for whosoever believes in Him as "the sacrificial lamb for sin". The passage continues by saying whosoever does not believe in Him stands "already condemned" as that person doesn't have a sacrifice to offer for their sin, and so must pay for their sins on their own with their death & destruction.
Joshua, you said: No one is covered by Messiah until they accept the Messiah by faith.
Of course. I explained that. If someone offers to save someone's life, then the person has to accept it to be saved. But their not accepting the offer does not in anyway affect the giver's offer.
This is a new way of looking at the gospel that I have never heard of; faith cannot activate grace as you say. Rather faith is a response to God's grace.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
Grace is the electricity--faith is the plug that is plugged into the socket--the electricity is there at the ready--electricity is not activated by the plug--the electricity gives the power to the implement.
The plain reading of John 3:16 means exactly what it says--Christ died for all--even if all don't accept it. The gift of Salvation comes from faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. It is a GIFT offered. Our faith or lack thereof does not have any bearing on the gift giver--some will accept the gift that is offered to all and some won't.
Of course. I explained that. If someone offers to save someone's life, then the person has to accept it to be saved. But their not accepting the offer does not in anyway affect the giver's offer.
This is a new way of looking at the gospel that I have never heard of; faith cannot activate grace as you say. Rather faith is a response to God's grace.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
Grace is the electricity--faith is the plug that is plugged into the socket--the electricity is there at the ready--electricity is not activated by the plug--the electricity gives the power to the implement.
The plain reading of John 3:16 means exactly what it says--Christ died for all--even if all don't accept it. The gift of Salvation comes from faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. It is a GIFT offered. Our faith or lack thereof does not have any bearing on the gift giver--some will accept the gift that is offered to all and some won't.
This thread is concerning atonement, "the covering" of one's life by Messiah's blood. The offer is made to any and all to be covered. But no one is covered unless and until they accept the offer. The atonement has not happened for the whole world because it's a matter of individuals accepting the offer. They must accept the offer to be covered. No covering for them exists if they refuse the accept the offer.
Here, let's go back to your examples. A fleet of cars and ships can appear all of different sizes and shapes offering salvation from the elements...but if you dont accept the offer to enter into one of them you will still suffer and die from exposure because you are not covered by one of those roofs or cabins. The offer to save you still abounds, but there was no covering for you because you didn't accept it and so there was no salvation for you from the elements, by your own choice.
If Noah and his family never entered into the ark they would've died in the flood, even though the Almighty had them build the ark specifically to save them.
The Israelites were instructed to smear lambs blood on their door posts and to remain inside as death passed over Egypt...but if any Israelites did not follow the instructions and instead went outside, they still would've died, even though their salvation was assured.
"Many are called...few are chosen."
Well not necessarily new... Recall that there are many things that have been altered.
Grace is not unmerited favor or mercy or the world's modern definition of the word grace. God's mercy is called mercy. His unmerited favor is called favor.
Meanwhile, His grace is the divine strength from the Almighty that's inside the believer (because the Holy Spirit is inside the believer). So it's more so spiritual muscle, rather than electricity as far as imagery (see the verses below as to why I say this).
It is through this divine empowerment that one lives Messiah's life in their body...which can only happen through faith. Faith activates the Almighty's power in the believer.
"I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength."
"...for my grace is made perfect through weakness."
"Grow in the grace and the knowledge of our lord and savior Jesus Christ."
"[Grace] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."
No one receives this divine strength unless and until they first believe in Messiah, so faith can't be a response. Faith must come first. It is through faith that we receive the strength to live righteously. We do however respond to His love for us (John 3:16)...that's what gets the ball rolling.
1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
...Unfortunately, some will not respond to His love and thus will never be covered.
Here, let's go back to your examples. A fleet of cars and ships can appear all of different sizes and shapes offering salvation from the elements...but if you dont accept the offer to enter into one of them you will still suffer and die from exposure because you are not covered by one of those roofs or cabins. The offer to save you still abounds, but there was no covering for you because you didn't accept it and so there was no salvation for you from the elements, by your own choice.
If Noah and his family never entered into the ark they would've died in the flood, even though the Almighty had them build the ark specifically to save them.
The Israelites were instructed to smear lambs blood on their door posts and to remain inside as death passed over Egypt...but if any Israelites did not follow the instructions and instead went outside, they still would've died, even though their salvation was assured.
"Many are called...few are chosen."
Well not necessarily new... Recall that there are many things that have been altered.
Grace is not unmerited favor or mercy or the world's modern definition of the word grace. God's mercy is called mercy. His unmerited favor is called favor.
Meanwhile, His grace is the divine strength from the Almighty that's inside the believer (because the Holy Spirit is inside the believer). So it's more so spiritual muscle, rather than electricity as far as imagery (see the verses below as to why I say this).
It is through this divine empowerment that one lives Messiah's life in their body...which can only happen through faith. Faith activates the Almighty's power in the believer.
"I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength."
"...for my grace is made perfect through weakness."
"Grow in the grace and the knowledge of our lord and savior Jesus Christ."
"[Grace] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."
No one receives this divine strength unless and until they first believe in Messiah, so faith can't be a response. Faith must come first. It is through faith that we receive the strength to live righteously. We do however respond to His love for us (John 3:16)...that's what gets the ball rolling.
1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
...Unfortunately, some will not respond to His love and thus will never be covered.