The authority of the Church

[Harley_Angel]

I was reading something, and I wonder what you all think of it. Here is what the verse said, and then what the author of the book wrote "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind (prohibit) on earth will be bound in heave, and whatever you loose (permit) on earth will be loosed in heaven. The actions of "binding" and "loosing"in heaven are verbs in the perfect tense, meaning that when Peter binds or looses, it will already have been accomplished in Heaven-that is, Peter follows the will of God in Heaven and not the reverse.

When I asked my priest why we (the Episcopal church) allow women to preach, he told me it was because the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is capable of leading us through the changes God wants for us. Many people have attacked that theory saying God would never have us change something that was in the Bible, but now that I read that verse, I feel even more that what my priest was saying might be the case. If something is a rule in heaven, and rules can change (example the old laws of moses vs. the new covenant of Jesus), then the Holy Spirit can guide the church to follow that will.

What are your ideas on this verse and it's connotations? (btw, I don't want this to turn into ANOTHER 'reasons why women can't preach' threads. I used the example of women preaching in church because it shows an example of how the Holy Spirit has guided the Episcopal church through a change.)

 

[socperkins]

I don't think God changes his rules. The old laws still stand, we are just set free from them because of Jesus Christ. In Romans 8:1-4 Paul states that "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." I see that as saying that the old law is still there for those who don't know Jesus. We default, though we still try to follow it.

If someone is truly guided by the Holy Spirit, then I think they can bind and loose because they're doing God's will. Spirits are deceitful though, and we should always test them to make sure where they're from. That's my opinion.

 

[Bob1953]

I have no problem with women preaching in church, but I interpret this verse differently than you. I think it means that if I steal from people, the Lord will allow people to steal from me, and if I bear false witness against people, the Lord will allow people to bear false witness against me, and so forth.

 

[MahogonySnail]

These same people who claim to be guided by the Spirit in allowing female ordination do they also allow homosexual priests?

We note that the binding and loosing was given to no one else except the 12 disciples.
It refers to allowing or disallowing certain teachings in the authority they had over the church. Just consult any good bible commentary.
The bible is a record of what the apostles allowed and did not allow, and therefore as far as I'm concerned the binding and loosing regarding females in authority was already made by the apostles and set in stone in the scriptures and should not be changed. The question is does our present day denominations and churches have the same authority as the 12 apostles, or is it merely a man-made organisation that thinks it is guided by the Holy Spirit but is rather doing what it pleases and because some priest has a degree from a theological college thinks it gives him the right to revoke or change what the apostles already said as revealed in scripture.

 

[Bob1953]

These same people who claim to be guided by the Spirit in allowing female ordination do they also allow homosexual priests?

.

I would rather not have a homosexual pastor.

 

[Bob1953]

We note that the binding and loosing was given to no one else except the 12 disciples.
It refers to allowing or disallowing certain teachings in the authority they had over the church. Just consult any good bible commentary.
.

Harley, MahogonySnail uses the expression “any good Bible commentary.” I’m not sure everybody would agree as to what constitutes a good Bible commentary.

 

[Bob1953]

There are perhaps at least two kinds of Christians. One is devoted to studying the Scriptures, the other is devoted to OBEYING the Scriptures they are studying.

If you are looking for someone to help you understand the Bible, you might seek out opinions of the second group, not the first. Find Christians who are humble and don’t think they know it all. Remember that pride is a sin (Mark 7:20-23), and don’t be bamboozled by these people. Keep listening to the Lord’s voice inside your head.

 

[Harley_Angel]

Yes, the Episcopal church does allow homosexual clergy, which I do NOT agree with. That is not something I believe the Holy Spirit guided them in doing because it caused a MAJOR rift with a lot of the churches. A lot of episcopal chuches broke off and became Anglican. There was far less controversy over woman being ordained.

"The question is does our present day denominations and churches have the same authority as the 12 apostles, or is it merely a man-made organisation that thinks it is guided by the Holy Spirit but is rather doing what it pleases and because some priest has a degree from a theological college thinks it gives him the right to revoke or change what the apostles already said as revealed in scripture"

Yes, I think this is the question. Jesus said He'd be with His Church always, which leads me to believe that the shaping and forming of the Church doesn't end with what was written in the Bible. There were SOOOOO many other books that were written by Godly men. What books went into the Bible where decided by the Catholic Church in 397ad at the Council of Carthage. I do believe the Apostles were dead (or no longer on Earth) when they Holy Spirit presumably gave the Church authority to decide what books needed to go into the Bible. They also decided in 325ad what was going to be the canon Christian beliefs during the council of Nicaea, which again, we presume was lead by the Holy Spirit.

So, it appears the Church still had authority after the Apostles were gone. I think that so many of us don't believe the Holy Spirit can guide and change the Church because we feel it should have taken place a long long time ago. I don't believe the Holy Spirit is stuck in the past, or that the shaping and guiding of the Church stopped after the events that took place in the Bible. There was so much more written, so much that had been left out.

If anybody has an scripture that says that A. The books in the Bible are the final word on all things, or that B. The rules will never ever change. That would be great. Because right now, as far as I'm concerned, as long as it doesn't go against the Nicene or Apostle's Creed, which state the necessary elements of our beliefs, then change could be led by the Holy Spirit.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell. [See Calvin]
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.


We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Bob1953]

Like I said in my last post, in case you didn’t read it, Harley, if you are looking for someone to help you understand the Bible, you might seek out opinions of humble people who don’t claim to know it all. Most importantly, keep listening to the Lord’s voice inside your head.

 

[Harley_Angel]

I saw that Bob. I find talking to people, even ones who arent' humble, gives me a good place to start searching. If they bring up an arguement, it gives me a chance to research it, especially if it's not something I would have thought about in the first place. I definately plan on talking about this with several other people who I know in real life, but there is such a plethora of different backgrounds here, it's nice to see the opinions of other people. In the end, I'll collect all the information people have given me, and I'll use it as the place to filter through and find the right answer with the help of the Holy Spirit. I have been humbled many times by "know it alls" who actually said something that stuck with me. I'm trying to put the world behind me, stop thinking like the world has taught me to think and to think like God wants, and in order to do that, I need to hear the words of man AND the Words of God so I can distinguish between the two. It's like an exercise in discernment and it makes my beliefs airtight.

 

[Harley_Angel]

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Homosexuality is obviously sexually immoral, but women preaching has nothing to do with anything of a sinful nature...in fact, women spreading the word of God, living for God, and serving a church as a preacher of God's word has everything to do with love, joy, faithfulness, goodness, etc. So, even though Paul's law was that women aren't to speak, because in the time, their speaking was causing discord, dissension, and selfish ambition, that's not longer the case now. So couldn't the Holy Spirit guide the church to allow women to preach since it's not of a sinful nature?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Harley, MahogonySnail uses the expression “any good Bible commentary.” I’m not sure everybody would agree as to what constitutes a good Bible commentary.

At least try to use a bible commentary instead of merely giving your own opinions (which are often wrong) is what I'm saying. Most things we're wondering about here is because we're amateurs pretending to be learned theologians. Theologians can give the necessary background info. to describe a piece of scripture and I generally consult presbyterian, baptism, methodist, anglican and sometimes even catholic sources to form a general consensus and unbiased (as much as possible) viewpoint.

I'm sure you'd go to a learned medical doctor if you were sick but you people seem to have an aversion to consulting works by learned theologians in preference to your own opinion-based knowledge which is often wrong, and there's no excuse for your ignorance except you dont' bother to google or buy a darn good bible commentary.

Yes, the Episcopal church does allow homosexual clergy, which I do NOT agree with.

There's your answer, they aren't led by the Holy Spirit. The whole homosexual clergy thing came about fairly soon after female priests. I've been in the Anglican communion most of my life and it went from bad to worse. But there are still parts of the Anglican who stick to the truth such as the African brethren and a few in Australia and other places in the world. They will eventually break away from the status quo I believe and form a new branch, although various local churches have done this already such as the more Catholic versions. I don't know about episcopals but we're connected to that guy in England who calls himself an arch bishop but is also a druid.

 

[Harley_Angel]

Just because one thing they change isn't right, does that mean they aren't led as a whole? Just because I screw up once in a while doesn't mean the Holy Spirit hasn't guided me to do good things.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Harley I know Sunday school kids and new converts who wouldn't approve homosexual priests so I don't buy this idea that it's merely a bit of a screw up. These are learned , knowledgeable , biblically-trained people making these decisions who apparently consult God in their decision making and claim such decisions come from Him.

 

[MahogonySnail]

And this isn't a problem confined to Anglican the uniting church and some others are in the same basket as far as i'm concerned.
In this day and age your most truthful denominations when it comes to biblical morality are the pentecostals, the catholics, the presbyterians and seventh day adventists IMO, oh baptist and lutheran too I guess b ut im not familiar with them.

 

[Thaddaeus]

well, I think you have to have faith, that this is the Word of God, if you don't have faith that the Holy Scriptures are the true Word of God, then it would do me no good even if I could show you: A. The books in the Bible are the final word on all things, or that B. The rules will never ever change. you would even write that verse that says a and/or b, that was said by man also and just put in the word of God after the Apostles died out.

Ro 10:16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?Ro 10:17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
so it will come down to the question that Esaias rang out "who hath believed our report?" If we believe that we have the word of God then it becames a necessity that we believe that it is all the True Word of God for if we have the Word of God, and we say that some of it is straight from God and some from man then we have Just made ourselves god. Or what we call here at the Church, a Burger King religion, we can have it our way.

Gal 5:5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

We have to have the truth or know the truth before we can obey it. if it is not all true then the whole lump is Bad. keep in mind, is it okay for me to tell you a story with only half the facts and the other half I added. so why would we even think to accept the Holy Bible unless we believed that it is all true. or else who determines what God has said and what Man has said, the individual?

If we believe that Christ is over the Church then how do we not believe that man is over the woman.


Eph5:20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Jesus is the Authority over the Church

 

[Harley_Angel]

I do believe that the Bible is wholly truth, my curiosity in summary is if that's where it ends. I wondered if there was anything in the Bible that said the rules will never change, or that the gospels would be it and only it. And again, we left out so much when we decided what would go into the Bible, it makes me wonder why the Bible has become such a concrete guide and nothing else can be the Word of God. What about the other lettes, the other witnesses, the other stories written that weren't deemed necessary to be in the finalized Bible?

I'm just trying to figure out the scope and boundaries of the Word of God and the authority of the Church so that I'll be able to recognize blasphemy vs the Holy Spirit. Really what i want to know and understand I haven't quite found the words for...maybe when I can form the question better, I'll come back and ask more specifically.

 

[Bob1953]

At least try to use a bible commentary instead of merely giving your own opinions (which are often wrong) is what I'm saying. Most things we're wondering about here is because we're amateurs pretending to be learned theologians. Theologians can give the necessary background info. to describe a piece of scripture and I generally consult presbyterian, baptism, methodist, anglican and sometimes even catholic sources to form a general consensus and unbiased (as much as possible) viewpoint.

I'm sure you'd go to a learned medical doctor if you were sick but you people seem to have an aversion to consulting works by learned theologians in preference to your own opinion-based knowledge which is often wrong, and there's no excuse for your ignorance except you dont' bother to google or buy a darn good bible commentary.

Mahogony,

I’m not very interested in Bible commentaries. If I want advice, I will probably seek out advice from people who have repented of their sin and therefore can look me square in the eyes. The opinions of people who can’t look us square in the eyes are always suspect.

Besides, on judgment day you have to take responsibility for your own actions—you can’t blame some theologian. I don’t let other people do my thinking for me. I simply read my Bible and obey it to the best of my ability, or at least I would like to think so.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Bob, this isn't about advice this is about properly interpreting passages of scripture, which you seem to have no interest in doing. I ignore people like yourself who quote scripture formed of their own opinion only when it comes to biblical topics. As they say, opinions are like rectums - everyone has one and most of them stink. That's why we also need textbook material.

 

[Bob1953]

Bob, this isn't about advice this is about properly interpreting passages of scripture, which you seem to have no interest in doing. I ignore people like yourself who quote scripture formed of their own opinion only when it comes to biblical topics. As they say, opinions are like rectums - everyone has one and most of them stink. That's why we also need textbook material.

Mahogony,

In the “Great Commandment” thread that was begun today, Carpe diem suggests we all ask ourselves, “Do I really know The Father or do I only know OF Him what is spoken by man?”

You seem to want Bible commentaries so you can learn more of what “experts” say about him, but surely Carpe diem is correct. We must come to know the Lord Himself. As the Apostle Paul says, we must constantly be in prayer (1Thes.5:17).

Do you pray?