"the bible is fiction"

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,528
3,715
113
#21
Just wondering what you say or respond to people who think the Bible is fiction.

Do you just let them have their opinion, or do you ask them have they actually read it?
Or do you go to lengths to explain to them how its historical.

Or do you go the CS Lewis route and compromise and say well actually its a true myth.

I had this workmate who said this and it seems like she believes in science. But I then point out that there is science fiction which I dont believe at all. Maybe I should just leave it at that and only be worried if she starts pushing Scientology.
My response?

I ask them if they ever gave any thought to the fact that people believe the Bible is fiction but hell is REAL?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,528
3,715
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#23
How about the seedless orange tree? :)
Things such as this are an abomination of God's creations! (half serious/half tongue in cheek)

Cloned fruit no one cries about, but JUST CLONE A CHILD and see what uproar you get........

Excerpt:

Navel oranges, grown the world over and prized for their undeniably delicious flavor, cannot be propagated from seed like most fruit trees. Since the fruits lack seeds, all navel orange trees are clones derived from a single genetic specimen. This asexual propagation technique, called grafting, ensures that the sweet citrus fruit will not be lost.

(here)

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr...ore.html/RK=2/RS=cW5j.wfAcSvfSJuNYeggQDCbDXQ-




 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
517
85
28
#24
Just wondering what you say or respond to people who think the Bible is fiction.
Why do you believe it is non-fiction? If you believe it is non-fiction then you shouldn't need someone else to tell you why you believe it isn't fiction.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
2,497
806
113
#25
Just wondering what you say or respond to people who think the Bible is fiction.

Do you just let them have their opinion, or do you ask them have they actually read it?
Or do you go to lengths to explain to them how its historical.

Or do you go the CS Lewis route and compromise and say well actually its a true myth.

I had this workmate who said this and it seems like she believes in science. But I then point out that there is science fiction which I dont believe at all. Maybe I should just leave it at that and only be worried if she starts pushing Scientology.
Scientology is more fiction than anything. You can’t argue faith into somebody.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
517
85
28
#26
Things such as this are an abomination of God's creations! (half serious/half tongue in cheek)

Cloned fruit no one cries about, but JUST CLONE A CHILD and see what uproar you get........

Excerpt:

Navel oranges, grown the world over and prized for their undeniably delicious flavor, cannot be propagated from seed like most fruit trees. Since the fruits lack seeds, all navel orange trees are clones derived from a single genetic specimen. This asexual propagation technique, called grafting, ensures that the sweet citrus fruit will not be lost.

(here)

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ6yovWfxeCmQAigxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyMWF2NWJjBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDQzA0NjlfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1593625008/RO=10/RU=https://www.gardenguides.com/12538888-if-navel-oranges-have-no-seeds-how-do-we-grow-more.html/RK=2/RS=cW5j.wfAcSvfSJuNYeggQDCbDXQ-
The seedless orange could not have been produced by propagating because propagating is the process of taking tissue from one plant and producing multiple in-kind plants without the need for seeds. However, like the Bible says, the propagated plant is 'in-kind'. I know because I am a propagator :sneaky:

Grafting is taking the tissue of one plant and attaching it to another plant. Now graphing is used to propagate the tissue of the seedless orange tree but you have to have a tree that produces seedless fruit in order to propagate it. Seedless fruit tree did not occur from a random genetic mutation.

The seedless fruit tree is not the result of a natural mutation but was produced by cross pollination between a hybrid and a sterile orange tree which resulted in a tree that produces fruit without seed. Since the process to produce the seedless fruit tree, the most efficient and cost effective method is to propagate the tree by tissue graphing.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,528
3,715
113
#27
Did you read MY POST? And did you read the Article I referenced?
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
517
85
28
#28
Yes I read your post and no, I couldn't get the link to work but the statement "Navel oranges, grown the world over and prized for their undeniably delicious flavor, cannot be propagated from seed like most fruit trees." was obviously cut and pasted from the article.

Since the tree that produced the seedless fruit can be propagated from seed since it was propagated from a seed. Propagate simply means a process of bring about more of something. The time to produce the seed that will produce a seedless fruit tree is time consuming and expensive that graphing is the more economical method of propagating the seedless fruit tree.

When one talks about propagating a plant, it refers unto producing a new plant from the nodules, or tuber of an existing plant.
For example, the eyes of a potato are nodules, the potato itself is a tuber. From one potato you can cut the tuber into pieces and each piece of the tuber with a nodule will root and each piece will produce more potatoes. Or you can simply plant the whole tuber and it will grow in to a plant. So do you think potatoes flower and produce seeds from the flowers to grow new potato plants?
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
517
85
28
#29
I tried the link again, maybe it was my mouse that didn't click but it worked this time. But like I said the article isn't reliable, take the following statement in the article.

The precise origin of the navel orange tree is unknown, but the original tree may have been a mutant grown in Brazil.
The seedless orange tree was produced by Catholic monks in South America in the 1800's, I don't recall the exact date or location but using the same method other fruits have been produced using the same process to produce the plant and/or tree which have seedless fruit. It was not some random genetic mutation that occurred in nature.
 

Corban

Active member
Jun 11, 2020
285
102
43
69
#30
The end of nothing cannot produce something is the conclusion that the universe has always existed.

The belief that the universe came forth out of nothing by a Creator is called "Creatio ex nihilo" It holds that everything that exists in this world was created into existence and was not formed out of any divine substance or existent matter.

The Big Bang is based the philosophical dictum of 'ex nihilo nihil fit ' which holds that from nothing can come nothing, in such the Big Bang is based upon the primordial atom, not nothing. Since nothing can come from nothing everything in the universe is believed have always existed.
Looks like we agree on everything. I've made a phrase bold red. "Believed" is not science. It is faith - or superstition. Science is defined as;
"the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

What the Bible says about our esteemed men of intellect, but who deny a Creator, is this:

18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
(Romans 1:18-20)

That is, a systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment shows:
  1. That no matter how far back we go, something came from nothing
  2. That without the aid of men, the highest known intelligence - an exquisitely intricate order permeates this vast volume of matter and energy
But the energies of intellectual men that are sunk into "believing" something else, are not founded on their scientific capability. It is much more the logical end of any discussion on Creation. If there is a Creation, then there is a Creator. And if a Creator, then He is Owner and Master of what He created. And since our esteemed intellectuals are part of the Creation, they have a Maker and Master Who owns them and has the right to make demands of them. This they abhor. Men will find any excuse not to be scientific because it would mean that they are obliged to find their Master and Maker and inquire what He wants of them.
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
528
120
43
#31
Let them know that of the world religions Christianity is the only 'historical' religion. Our faith isn't founded by mythical or ethereal personages that have no presence in the memory of the believers.

Our God is a concrete reality, an authentic historical person just as, really more so, than George Washington or Napoleon.

Our Scriptures are centered on an event among the people of several nations and a Divine person who was from a distinct people. He had a hometown a family and has a powerful presence in history and human memory.

What historians would deny the historicity of Jesus. What historian can affirm the historicity of Brahma or any Pagan gods.

Christianity contradicts religions founded on myth. Religions founded on fiction.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
759
380
63
#32
Also, what fiction book includes medical information that is centuries ahead of its time? For example:

Sanitary practices - The Israelites were instructed to wash themselves and their clothes in running water if they had a bodily discharge, if they came in contact with another person’s discharge, or if they had touched a dead human or animal carcass. In addition, the Israelites were instructed to bury their human waste outside of camp, and to burn the waste of their animals (Numbers 19:3-22, Leviticus 11:1-47, Leviticus 15:1-33, Deuteronomy 23:12). We might take this for granted today, but uncleanliness with waste has led to all manner of diseases in the not too distant past.

Bacteria - God commanded the Levitical priests to burn the garments of leprosy victims in Leviticus 13:52. Leprosy is a bacteria, a living organism, that certainly can survive on walls and garments.

Quarantine - God's laws to Moses included instructions regarding quarantine to prevent the spread of leprosy and other infectious diseases.

Antiseptic - Hyssop oil was charged by God to Moses to be used as a purifying agent. Hyssop oil has been shown to contain 50% antifungal and antibacterial agents (Numbers 19:18 and Psalm 51:7).

Circumcision - Circumcision is said to be one of the most common medical procedures today, and various studies conclude it has health and hygiene benefits. But the Israelites have been circumcising all their males for thousands of years, as commanded in Genesis 17 and Leviticus 12. But not only did the bible command that all male Israelites be circumcised, it also specified that they should be circumcised at 8 days old. On the 8th day after birth, the two main blood clotting factors, Vitamin K and Prothrombim, reach their highest level in life, so it would appear the 8th day is the best age to get circumcised.

Alcohol and pregnancy - Samson’s mother was told to avoid alcohol when she was pregnant with Samson (Judges 13:3-4).

Dietary guidelines - Diets high in vegetables, fruits, and grains (such as practiced by Seventh-day Adventists) reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer, and many other diseases. But the Seventh-day Adventists get their food guidelines from the bible.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,202
1,427
113
#33
I will pray for her but yes shes ignorant shes never had any church upbringing or even read it so why would she think any different I suppose. she hasnt been to Israel but I supoose she thinks its like a made up land or something, or that all stories are made up...

its just a bit disconcerting. as for scientists they are constantly making fiction and passing their stories off as true so I just wonder if fiction is just a catch all word for stories. (just so stories anyone?)

Everytime I read people going on about how dinosaurs were around millions of years ago and the earth, well some parts of it are million of years old and the mountains are formed by millions of years (and they bandy about different figures all the time) I just think well you wanna believe in more ridiculous things like that a mountain couldnt just be made in a day (or moved) then ok. its like ok maybe you believe a cake is made by adding the flour one grain at a time. So I am a bit inclined to scoff at many of the current scientific claims and the one that get repeated in practically every book on natural history, that humans have somehow descended from apes and we used to live in trees and had fur and walk around on four legs. and that maybe in future we wont need to use our legs at all and just roll around all the time on wheels after millions of years, not that people cant live in treehouses now or wear fur coats or wear rollerskates... ya know.

but then pointing out how ridiculous science can be I suppose is a waste of time. Havent really asked her about where she thinks Jews come from but I dont think shes ever met anyone Jewish or really been that bothered to find out.
I think if we plant the incorruptible Gospel seed by which men are born anew and Christ empowers a person to believe .

Then they can see how ridiculous it is to to seek after that kind of faithless science.

Not that there should not be great ministries like "Back to Genesis" Ken Ham and Gary Parker. where debates can be discussed as to the nature, or supernatural like that of Christianity . Both are needed.

But in the end we do not know Christ after the rudiments of this world .He cannot be found in a microscope or telescope or looking for one missing bone.

The key is faith. Which is much understood with those who have none.( Deuteronomy 32:20 ) As to what faith is, who it belongs as to its one source. As it is written The faith of Christ that does work in these earthen bodies empowers to walk with Him making our daily burden lighter.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Or not after faith the golden measure. Not a measure of men what the eyes see corrupted rudiments. the temporal .

I would suggest learn how to rightly divide the parables called walking or understanding by faith. those unseen works take away. What they call science fiction, or good bedtime children stories.

In that way I think we can buy truth and not sell it as fictional . It would seem the reason why he hid it from natural man

He whose name is Jealous desires to be the one source of the unseen eternal . He teaches us how to mix faith so that we can enter the gospel rest.

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
4,870
2,408
113
#34
How about the seedless orange tree? :)
Okay, the seedless orange tree may not have seeds BUT, it still MUST have a “Life Source” - SOMETHING gives it life to create more of the same.........

So, the conversation can go from seed as a life source to being grafted into the True Vine that gives us Eternal Life.

SEEDLESS FRUIT such as navel oranges are propagated asexually, usually by grafting.

There is ALWAYS a Life Source -seed, grafting, pollination, chromosomes.

ONLY a Creator is The Source of all Life. Even a human baby still born is “creation” yet, it has no life in itself.....the baby still NEEDS The Creator to give it Life.

Even with seeds, grafting, pollination, chromosomes, Creation still NEEDS it’s Creator to give it Life.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
7,687
2,774
113
#35
Grafting is in the Bible, and identical twins are technically clones.
Was Jesus a clone of His Father do you think?

I dont read much science fiction at all.
My major was in english literature, so it seemed to consist of lots of Shakespeare and victorian novels. But the authors always had a moral to the story, so even fiction is believeable to some extent.

I asked my workmate if she had read the Bible and she hadnt, so maybe its a challenge for her. Shes read Shantaram , which was 1000 pages. I told her the Bible was a great story. Maybe she will want to read it later if people keep asking her if shes read it but she has absolutely no clue what its about.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
7,687
2,774
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#36
although, I am going to start on The Testaments by Margaret Atwood, which I suppose you could call science fiction or dystopia.

The Handmaids Tale actually did reference the Bible quite a bit, its set in 'the republic of Gilead' Gilead being a biblical name, and the handmaids refer to Rachel and Leahs surrogate maids.

I didnt really enjoy the nightmarish aspect of the Handmaids Tale, but then Margaret Atwood doesnt write chicklit. She could have just reported on some fundamentalist cults in the US like mormonism but I suppose made up this story to articulate her agnostic fears I suppose.

if my workmate hasnt read the Bible she probably wont get all the references in other literature to it.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
26,528
3,715
113
#37
Yes I read your post and no, I couldn't get the link to work but the statement "Navel oranges, grown the world over and prized for their undeniably delicious flavor, cannot be propagated from seed like most fruit trees." was obviously cut and pasted from the article.

Since the tree that produced the seedless fruit can be propagated from seed since it was propagated from a seed. Propagate simply means a process of bring about more of something. The time to produce the seed that will produce a seedless fruit tree is time consuming and expensive that graphing is the more economical method of propagating the seedless fruit tree.

When one talks about propagating a plant, it refers unto producing a new plant from the nodules, or tuber of an existing plant.
For example, the eyes of a potato are nodules, the potato itself is a tuber. From one potato you can cut the tuber into pieces and each piece of the tuber with a nodule will root and each piece will produce more potatoes. Or you can simply plant the whole tuber and it will grow in to a plant. So do you think potatoes flower and produce seeds from the flowers to grow new potato plants?
Well it's a shame you couldn't read the Article. You CAN do a search and find it I suspect
I have no idea who you are, but I do know that the Article gives the Historical facts of where naval oranges come from and how they came about...........

So, not for nothing, but I'm going with them.............. and, if you get the Article, you will find that some of what you are saying they say......... I don't really see why you are even arguing against an Article you haven't even read.............That's a strange concept is it not?

........anyway, this is far more time than I ever wanted to spend discussing the origins of the Naval Orange
 
#38
Just wondering what you say or respond to people who think the Bible is fiction.

Do you just let them have their opinion, or do you ask them have they actually read it?
Or do you go to lengths to explain to them how its historical.

Or do you go the CS Lewis route and compromise and say well actually its a true myth.

I had this workmate who said this and it seems like she believes in science. But I then point out that there is science fiction which I dont believe at all. Maybe I should just leave it at that and only be worried if she starts pushing Scientology.
Hi Lanolin, tell them they are wrong and that it is all a matter of faith to believe our Lord Jesus Christ when He instructed us that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of GOD. Matthew 4:4
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
528
120
43
#39
, the conversation can go from seed as a life source to being grafted into the True Vine that gives us Eternal Life.

SEEDLESS FRUIT such as navel oranges are propagated asexually, usually by grafting.
Nice parallel. I'm sure there was an originating seed?
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
528
120
43
#40
Was Jesus a clone of His Father do you think
His DNA was from His mother except for one Y chromosome to be male. This is from analysis of a Eucharist that turned into human flesh. Heart tissue to be more precise.