The Big Revelation Quest

[Joseppi]

Amil.

The words "thousand years" used in that parable(Revelation 20) represents a unknown . Christ will come as a thief in the night just as in the days of Noah .Sudden destruction this time, the whole universe rolled up like a scroll will go up in smoke as the new heavens and earth appear over the horizon. No more Sun and moon as time keepers. Its the end of time the time keepers will be under the feet of His chaste virgin bride, the church, depicted in that parable in Revelation 12.

Remember that we are not ignorant as them that live in the darkness of night.

Jesus didn’t say he will come soon.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Notice it reads “things which must shortly come to pass”

That means that Jesus isn’t coming soon.
Instead, “shortly” means Jesus is coming “as soon as he can”. For all things of God are done right, quickly and in short order.

My point being that there are things God has ordained to be done before Jesus returns.

That’s why the rapture notion is a dangerous philosophy because it attacks the readiness of the church to face what is coming.

The truth is that it’s the world that doesn’t know that Jesus is coming victoriously. It’s them that dwell in darkness that think that Jesus comes as a thief. When his light shines....

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The Rapture doctrine is a satanic teaching that teaches that Jesus is a thief who comes at night and steals the church away.

The rapture lovers forget the scripture says Jesus comes “as” a thief only to them that are lost.

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So our destiny is to meet Jesus in the clouds.

But our job is to occupy till Jesus returns.

Luke 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
You can’t occupy on earth if you’re already in heaven with Jesus.

The whole rapture doctrine is suited for all who wish to ignore what Jesus said to watch and pray about.

 

[IXApollyonXI]

By rapture are you referring unto the event referenced in Matthew 13:41-42 as well as by the gospel of the other apostles since that is already going on now yet those with faith have obviously have heard so no need in discussing in any detail except to say that those who don't know should read 1 John 2:20, since faith comes by hearing as one can see in the passage of John 5:25.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:24-25

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Rev 3:10

That ye be not slothfyul, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Heb 6:12

The hour of temptation happened when the NUMBER OF THE BEAST (SSN) was issued by FDR. The "Church Age" lasted 2,000 years.

1000 (+) 110 (+) 666 = 1776 A.D. (+) 225 = 2001 A.D.
Adolf Hitler = 110
FDR (+) SSN (+) HIW = 600-60-0006
The Great Tribulation = 225

Matt. 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in the name? and in the name cast out devil's? and in the name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus will come as a thief in the night. Meaning that you won't be aware of it, until it's too late. It was not a coincidence that 911 happened in the prophetic year of 2001!

 

[garee]

Notice it reads “things which must shortly come to pass”

That means that Jesus isn’t coming soon.
Instead, “shortly” means Jesus is coming “as soon as he can”. For all things of God are done right, quickly and in short order.

Shortly as in a day is like a thousand years to represent God is under no time restraint? A soon as the grass is green it is moved down.

God performs all things in his time so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

How long is enough to a patient God?

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.Eccl 3:11

Even the rapture in His time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The rapture is when Christ returns to Earth. He only returns once.

The on-going problem with the gathering of the church taking place at the same time that Christ returns to the earth, is that it would put the church through the entire wrath of God, namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This would also go against all of the promises in scripture which state that, we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that the Lord said that he would keep us out of that hour of trial (wrath) that coming upon the whole world, as found in 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10. If would also mean that the wrath that Jesus suffered on behalf of every believer would have been in vain.

The gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. According to John 14:1-3 and I Thes.4:13-17, when the Lord descends to gather the church, He does not return to the earth, but only descends to the atmosphere and calls up the church, dead and living, and then takes the entire church back to the Father's house. Whereas at the second coming, the Lord literally returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, which as previously stated, takes place after His wrath has been completed i.e. after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” - Rev.19:7-8

The event above, which is the wedding of the Lamb, is shown to be taking place in heaven. The bride, which is another designation for the church, is shown to already in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and is receiving her fine line, bright and clean.

"He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. - Rev.19:14

The scripture above shows the bride following Christ out of heaven to return to the earth riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen white and clean that she will have previously received at the wedding of the Lamb.

The above demonstrates that the church will already be in heaven, attending the wedding of the Lamb and will be returning with Christ as He returns to the earth. That being the case, you cannot have the church raptured up at the same time that Jesus is returning to the earth. The following is another example demonstrating that the church returns with Christ to the earth to end the age:

"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." - Rev.17:14

The church/bride are the "called, chosen and faithful followers" in the scripture above, who will be with Christ when He returns to the earth to end the age.

As long people continue to view the gathering of the church (rapture) as being the same event as the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, their interpretation of end-time events will always be in error.

The gathering of the church = The Lord calling up the church and taking them back to the Father's house

The second coming = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The on-going problem with the gathering of the church taking place at the same time that Christ returns to the earth, is that it would put the church through the entire wrath of God, namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This

I disagree. The seals and trumpets are not the wrath of GOD (7 vials of wrath).

 

[Ralph-]

Is the rapture Pre Tribulation or Post Tribulation?

It's at the last Trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

So the question is do you consider the seal and trumpet judgments before Revelation 11:15 (the seventh and last trumpet) the tribulation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It's at the last Trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

So the question is do you consider the seal and trumpet judgments before Revelation 11:15 (the seventh and last trumpet) the tribulation.

There's no need to confuse the "trump of God" (which is for the Rapture) with the 7th trumpet (which announces severe judgments on the unbelieving and ungodly world).

One would think that Christians know the difference between salvation and wrath. Those two trumpets have nothing in common.

 

[Joseppi]

You think that someone who thinks our gathering might be prior to the great tribulation is opposing Jesus?

Yes.
For, Jesus isn’t willing that anyone be lost. The false doctrine of the secret rapture of the church teaches that mankind suffers on earth without the Holy Ghost, and without the oft of Christ, until Jesus returns in glory.
That teaching is not of God at all.

Jesus said the end of the world is the harvest and that we are to pray for workers to enter into that harvest. So we are to finish the work of harvest.

But the rapture doctrine teaches that Jesus sneaks back to get his church and then leaves unsaved souls to fend for themselves on earth. And it doesn’t matter to rapturists if those left behind folks are saints, as long as they get their proverbial fat out of the fire as they see it.

As for your last sentence, I hated Jesus at one time and He didn't hate me back but loved me and desired to have me...

I asked you if you love them that hate Jesus.

You have turned endtimes views into a salvational issue. They aren't a salvational issue...

Your statement agrees with the false doctrine of “The Unconditional Love of God” and the false doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved.”

Those two false doctrines combined with the Secret Rapture of the Church false doctrine help to convince faithless folk they are saved so they can go to a party in heaven....no matter what.

And you say you love others? But you don’t show any interest in the salvation of the lost you hope to leave behind?

Well, for your information there are about five or six satanic doctrines now established in comfy churches today that have been introduced by devils to set up folks to fall away from faith in Jesus when the great tribulation begins.

Apparently many think that the church isn’t facing any real threat.
But that is a satanic view of reality on earth. One that teaches saints to let their guard down and disregard their common sense.

 

[Joseppi]

The satanic doctrine? Turning things upside down?

Those that want to escape being faithful to the end will they be lifted up (raptured) at the second resurrection?

Satan would try and deceive men it already occurred, and we do walk by sight ,(what the eyes see) as if the kingdom of God comes by observation and not the rapture as that not seen the faith issue . Will the what you call faithful ones remain on earth or will they be raised/ raptured up on the last day ?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus was raptured(lifted up) does that make Him a coward also ? If so what did he fall away from ?

Raptured doesn’t mean resurrected.

Jesus was lifted up on the cross. And it wasn’t a rapture moment.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If someone thinks the saints are gathered together before God pours His wrath on the earth, I'm not understanding how you think that means they don't care if saints are left on earth to suffer through Gods' wrath...they think the saints are kept from that time of trouble coming on the world to test it. They think the saints are then gone from the earth when God pours out His wrath on it. How do you arrive at: they don't care if saints are left on earth to suffer without the Holy Spirit - when they don't think the saints will BE here to suffer...?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I asked you if you love them that hate Jesus.

Yes, I love them. I was once one of them. He loved me even while I was in my sin. How could I then not love and wish others, who are as I once was, to be His? I want my Lord to have them all because He desires to have them...

 

[Joseppi]

There's no need to confuse the "trump of God" (which is for the Rapture) with the 7th trumpet (which announces severe judgments on the unbelieving and ungodly world).

One would think that Christians know the difference between salvation and wrath. Those two trumpets have nothing in common.

All your doing is trying to get folks to believe the last trump isn’t the last trump.

You have to teach that lie because the resurrection occurs after the church goes through the great tribulation.
And you know that.

No, folks, the last trump is indeed the last trump.

And guess what?
The voice that John heard in the spirit, that sounded like a trumpet, was not the voice of a trumpet.

And the “wrath” of God is specifically stated in scripture as occurring after the great tribulation ends.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[Joseppi]

If someone thinks the saints are gathered together before God pours His wrath on the earth, I'm not understanding how you think that means they don't care if saints are left on earth to suffer through Gods' wrath...they think the saints are kept from that time of trouble coming on the world to test it. They think the saints are then gone from the earth when God pours out His wrath on it. How do you arrive at: they don't care if saints are left on earth to suffer without the Holy Spirit - when they don't think the saints will BE here to suffer...?

You apparently don’t grasp the Rapture doctrine concerning the left behind saints and how they get saved in the great tribulation.
On thing you’ve been misled about is the wrath of God.
The scripture tells you that the wrath of God begins after the great tribulation.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Your statement agrees with the false doctrine of “The Unconditional Love of God” and the false doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved.”

I said endtime views are not a salvational issue. It is not necessary to know everything about prophecy or endtimes to be saved and receive the Holy Spirit. And if you think Jesus returns pre, during or after is not a requirement for receiving His Spirit. That is not the gospel, Joseppi. No one has perfect knowledge and you cannot demand that they must have perfect knowledge or they can't be saved. No man on earth is without some errors or he would be perfect and would know and understand God perfectly and would be in need of no more renewing or growth.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You apparently don’t grasp the Rapture doctrine concerning the left behind saints and how they get saved in the great tribulation.
On thing you’ve been misled about is the wrath of God.
The scripture tells you that the wrath of God begins after the great tribulation.

You do not think God pouring out all the previous destruction and woe is His anger?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The 7th trumpet announces the resurrection and the wrath of GOD.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You apparently don’t grasp the Rapture doctrine concerning the left behind saints and how they get saved in the great tribulation.
On thing you’ve been misled about is the wrath of God.
The scripture tells you that the wrath of God begins after the great tribulation.

If the saints are snatched up to be with Him, they are no longer on earth. They aren't left behind...
Yes, I realize you don't believe it happens, but if someone does believe it, they don't believe any saints are left behind...

 

[Ahwatukee]

I disagree. The seals and trumpets are not the wrath of GOD (7 vials of wrath).

Hello HeRoseFromTheDead,

Scripture would disagree with you in only identifying the seven bowls as only being the wrath of God. Regarding this, consider the following scripture:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

In the scripture above, the seven bowls are said to be last because with them God's wrath is completed. Therefore, if the bowls are last, then other wrath would have to come before them. In other words if something is last, then something had to come before. The seals, trumpets would be the other wrath that takes place prior to the bowl judgments.

In further support that the seals and the trumpets are apart of God's wrath, the seals are being opened by Christ, which leads into the trumpet judgments, meaning that He is the One responsible for the resulting destruction and fatalities. The majority of the book of Revelation from chapter 6 thru 18 with all of its related information, is representing God's wrath.

The Opening of the Sixth Seal:
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The above is announced after the opening of the 6th seal. The words "has come" is in the aorist, which refers to God's wrath in its entirety, i.e. the seals that will have previously taken place prior to the announcement, as well as the trumpets and bowl judgments which follow, all which encompass God's wrath.

The Sounding of the Seventh Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

The Seven Bowl Judgments:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

As you can see, each set of judgments (seals, trumpets and bowls) are referred to as being God's wrath.

With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, over half the earths population will be killed during that first 3 1/2 years.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments should be viewed as the collective means by which God is going to carry out His wrath.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments should be viewed as the collective means by which God is going to carry out His wrath.

I disagree. The 7 seals were opened nearly 2000 years ago. They revealed and set in motion events that would proceed until the very end which is described in very general terms in the 6th seal. The first 6 trumpets are warnings to the world that wrath is approaching, and the 7th (the last trump) announces that it has arrived..

 

[Ralph-]

There's no need to confuse the "trump of God" (which is for the Rapture) with the 7th trumpet (which announces severe judgments on the unbelieving and ungodly world).

One would think that Christians know the difference between salvation and wrath. Those two trumpets have nothing in common.

'Last' trumpet.
'Seventh (last) trumpet.

What do you mean they have nothing in common?