The Big Revelation Quest

[Ahwatukee]

Part I

The

Within chapter 1 thru 3, only the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints."

Likewise, from chapter 4 onward only the word "Hagios/Saints" is found and the word "Ekklesia/church is never seen again within the narrative of God's wrath, even though there are plenty of places that it could have been used. There is a reason for this. The absence of the word "church" means that the church is no longer on the earth, with Rev.4:1-2 being a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. The reference to "Saints" beginning in Rev.5:8 is referring to the great tribulation saints and not the church. You would think that after using the word "church" 19 times within chapter 1 thru 3, that it would be used at least once from chapter 4 onward. yet, its use abruptly stops.

The only reason for your claim above is because you are resisting the truth. First of all, the letters are not just to those literal churches of that time, but to the entire church period. And second, at the end of each of those letters we read "He who overcomes" and "he who has an ear" which is directed to each individual believer throughout the entire church period. Therefore, your apologetic regarding the use of the word "Saints" does not apply. The reason for the change is to make a distinction between the church and the saints who will be on the earth after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.

Those who are saved are those who are having faith in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them and who continue in that faith. However, there are some beliefs that prove that a person is truly not a believer, such trusting in one's own works for salvation, that Jesus did not resurrect bodily, that the resurrection has already taken place, as well as number of others.
Those who are not looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, are not trusting in His promise, but are teaching false teachings and are instead putting the church through God's wrath and thereby not really believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. Those who believe this have no understanding of who God's wrath will be directed at and it certainly won't be to those who have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. They also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.


You presented no scripture that saints of God are in the body of Christ.

Then you did not read or understand what I wrote above. You are not going to find a specific scripture that describes what I wrote. I'm pointing out information demonstrating that there is a reason for the use of the word "church" in the first three chapters and then the word "church" abruptly missing from scripture thereafter. By this, God is conveying something to the reader here. Some recognize it and some don't.

Now, if the words "church" and " Saints" were used interchangeably throughout the book of Revelation, it would not be and issue and I would not be contending for it. But because you have chapters 1 thru 3 using only the word "church" and is missing the word "Saints," and the opposite is true from chapter 6 thru 18, then I am recognizing God's hint and you should too.

I presented scriptures that say when the wrath of God is ordained.

Notice that the following says, “the great day of his wrath is come.” Which is stated right after the sixth seal is opened and immediate to the opening of the seventh seal.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

As I previously stated, you are looking at the scripture as though the wrath of God only comes after the announcement and that is the error. The words "has come" are in the aorist tense, which means that the announcement is not just referring to the wrath that is to follow, but to the wrath that will have already taken place, namely the seals and previous trumpets. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are a set and should not be separated. As I pointed out, the Lamb/Jesus is the One opening the seals, which lead into the bowls and which is followed by the bowl judgments, which complete God's wrath.

To be clear, the opening of the first seal is what initiates God's wrath, with the bowl judgments completing it. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments represent God's wrath, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring.

But you say to retranslate the verse above to agree with the false doctrine of a secret rapture?

Now I am not going to ignore what the scripture above states.

First of all, I did not say anything about retranslating scripture. The gathering of the church (rapture) is simply another event that will take place, a promise from the Lord to remove His church prior to His wrath. We have plenty of scripture stating that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that He would keep us out of the coming wrath. So then Satan gets busy to distort those truths by sending in people to redefine God's wrath and claim that the Lord is not going to gather His church prior to His wrath, but instead will protect them in the midst of His wrath. People who believe this do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

Then you reasoned that all the seven seals occur after the great tribulation. Which I know is not stated in scripture, so I looked for some more evidence and noticed the following.

Now you are just misquoting me, because I would never say that the seals occur after the great tribulation. What I did say is that the seals take place prior to the great tribulation. Just to be clear, below is a chronological order of the events of God's wrath:

The Lord will descend, the dead and living will be caught up and taken back to the Father's house

1st seal
2nd seal
3rd seal
4th seal
5th seal
6th seal
7th seal
--------- 1st Trumpet
--------- 2nd Trumpet
--------- 3rd Trumpet
--------- 4th Trumpet
--------- 5th Trumpet
--------- 6th Trumpet
--------- 7th Trumpet
------------------------- 1st Bowl
------------------------- 2nd Bowl
------------------------- 3rd Bowl
------------------------- 4th Bowl
------------------------- 5th Bowl
------------------------- 6th Bowl
------------------------- 7th Bowl

Second Coming = Christ's physical return to the earth and the church with Him to end the age


Continued on Part II

 

[Ahwatukee]

Part II

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Notice that when the fifth seal was opened the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and their testimony were seen at that time.

Now you say these are them that died during the great tribulation of the wrath of God.

You need to seriously pay attention to what you're reading! This is the second time you misquoted me!

I did not say that those under the alter died during the great tribulation, but just the opposite. At the opening of the 5th seal we are introduced to those who will have been killed prior to the great tribulation. Then they are told to wait a little longer until their fellow servants and brothers are killed in the same way that they will have been, which is referring to those saints who die during the great tribulation, not ones under the altar, but their brothers who die later.

5th seal/saints under the altar = Slain during the first 3 1/2 years

Great tribulation saints = Their brothers who are killed during the last 3 1/2 years

But note the following....

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

If these souls had seen the wrath of God during the great tribulation beginning with the first seal, then..

How come they testify that the wrath of God hasn’t come yet?

For they plainly state...

“How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

So, it is proven that the saints in the great tribulation testify that God’s judgment hasn’t come as wrath to earth to avenge their blood.

And that they are then told to wait till the full number of them are slain on earth, before the judgment of God’s wrath comes.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

After this comes the seventh seal and the full accounting of all who are slain in the great tribulation.

You error is that you interpret the judgment mentioned as referring to God's wrath upon the earth. However, the next verse makes clear of what these under the alter are asking. Below has the full account of what was said:

"They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been."

So their question is "How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood."

The full number of their of their fellow servants and their brothers being killed, is referring to those saints who are kill during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, also known as the great tribulation. It is after the great tribulation that Christ returns to the earth to end the age and is when he will judge those who killed those under the altar.

The Lord's answer is "to wait a little longer, until their brothers were killed just as they had been." Therefore, the judgment that is being referred, is what the Lord does to the inhabitants after the great tribulation which is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed below:

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations,"

"And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse.
And all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."

The Lord's judgment and avengement is then what He does to the inhabitants when He returns to the earth to end the age. That double-edged sword proceeds from His mouth, which is igurative representing the word of God and they all fall dead and the birds eat their flesh.

 

[Nehemiah6]

'Last'. That's what they have in common.

Last cannot be common. Let's take a mundane example. You have a man on death row having his last meal before his execution today. In the same city you have a man who is just leaving on vacation and having his last meal before he flies out. What's common in this situation? Absolutely nothing.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Last cannot be common. Let's take a mundane example. You have a man on death row having his last meal before his execution today. In the same city you have a man who is just leaving on vacation and having his last meal before he flies out. What's common in this situation? Absolutely nothing.

They're both happening at the same time.

 

[abcdef]

Is the rapture Pre Tribulation or Post Tribulation?

Osprey,

This is how to understand the Revelation.

The revelation repeats the same story several times from different view points.

The story centers on the time surrounding the 70 ad destruction until the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem and the coming of Jesus for the kingdom.
--

1. The scroll, Rev chs 4-11, Dan 12:4. The first telling of the story. The symbols are showing the cut off natural branches Israel and the withdrawing of God's blessings from them.

1-7 Seals, From the rejection of the Pentecost gospel kingdom/church by Israel (37 ad approx), until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad. which is the 6/7th seals.

1/2 hour of silence, The time between 70 ad and the giving of the Revelation 96 ad approx..

1-7 Trumpets, From the giving of the Revelation until the coming of Jesus at the 7th/last trumpet, when He comes for the kingdom, then it is the end where death is destroyed Rev 20:14-15.

(There are only 2 resurrections, #1 Jesus and the OT saints, #2 those who belong to the kingdom at His coming 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24)


2. The 2W's. The story of Israel, the cut off natural branches, from the view that they are still blessed from the promises made to the fathers whose calling and gifts are without repentance Ro 11:29.

The old Law temple worshipers are judged imperfect, with the coming of the new covenant of Jesus.

The cut off natural branches wander in sackcloth until they are restored to Jerusalem. 70 ad - 1967

After they are restored, the people of Israel are killed. (About to happen because of the kings of the east across the Euphrates River, Iran.)

Then Jesus comes at the rapt/resur for the kingdom.


3. Rev 12,

The woman is Israel. The dragon beast is Rome Daniel chs 2 & 7.

The story shows the Roman invasion and King Herod waiting to kill Jesus.

Jesus is caught up to the throne of God, v 5, Acts 1:9.

War in heaven, Satan cast out.

The day of Pentecost when the kingdom/church and salvation came, v 10.

The woman flees after 70 ad. to the wilderness of the gentile nations for the "times of the gentiles" Lk 21:20-24, 24. 70 ad - 1967.


4. Rev 14:14-20

The first harvest is the #1 resurrection of Jesus and the OT saints.

The treading of the wine press is the cut off natural branches having blessings withdrawn as long as they are "without the city", that is, until the natural branches are restored to Jerusalem.


5. Rev 20,

The #1 resurrection is Jesus and the OT saints. (John the Baptist was beheaded by the Roman iron dragon beast.)

The mill is the time of the kingdom/church on planet earth, which is now.

The dragon (v 2, Rev 12:3) Roman iron beast nation, cannot deceive the gentile nations into destroying Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem (the chain). Before Israel is restored to Jerusalem, they are scattered among the gentile nations and are not within the reach of the waters of the Roman iron dragon beast nation Rev 12:16.

======

You see how the stories are really the same except that they are from different points of view.

Jesus loves Israel and wants them to come into the kingdom, but the blessings of the kingdom cannot be given to them unless they accept Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[Noose]

Is the rapture Pre Tribulation or Post Tribulation?

There'll be no Post or mid or Pre rapture- these are all based on misunderstanding of rapture.
Rapture is individualistic as opposed to mass, 'two people will be in a field and one would be taken and another one left'; Example, in a car accident, all people perish except one or two-that is their rapture. This doesn't exclusively mean it is rapture but it is about God watching over His faithful believers so that they don't perish from the tribulation. The great Tribulation is nothing more than death from sword (wars), famine (Natural disasters), pestilences (diseases), beasts of the earth (Animals and machinery- accidents). Rev 6.

Tribulation happens daily so rapture also happens every day even today. It applies only to the 144k faithful believers or the church of Philadelphia who were promised to shelved from the great tribulation because of their faithfulness.

Remember, we are captives in Babylon (figuratively) and just like Daniel and the remnants of Judah, God will watch over the faithful believers and rapture them from eminent danger just like He did Daniel and other believers.

Read Jer 24:

1After Jehoiachina son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lordshowed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.
3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”
“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”
4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.b 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.
8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a curse and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”

Daniel and friends were raptured from eminent tribulation but that was a prophesy foreshadowing what happens to us today. The other group of Christians are unfaithful, these are the ones called Jerusalem or church of Smyrna. They will die of tribulation but will win a crown of life as their victor's crown.

The same God who sent famine/pestilences/sword against His people in Jer 24: 10 is the same God who commissions the great tribulation (sword/pestilences/famine/beats of the earth) in Rev 5 and we are told the reason He is the only one who can open the scroll is because Himself was slain and overcame death.

The reason Jesus said, "if you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, let those in Judea flee..."- Has the same meaning, one group will undergo tribulation but the remnant of Judah will flee or will be raptured.

 

[CS1]

Is the rapture Pre Tribulation or Post Tribulation?

hmm it depends :
If Jesus comes now that trump is President pretrib If Hilary had won Post Trib

 

[Nehemiah6]

Rapture is individualistic as opposed to mass

Not possible. Please study the passages which discuss the Rapture.