The Big Revelation Quest

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Sep 4, 2012
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#61
Here is how ludicrous it is to believe that the saints are being resurrected and brought to Heaven while all of this is happening as shown below (and there is absolutely no mention of saints being resurrected during this time either):
You didn't explain why it is ludicrous. I can't read your mind.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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#62
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The seventh seal is about to be opened.

Notice that the...
1. kings
2. rich men
3. chief captains
4. mighty men
5. bond men
6. free men

...all seek to hide from the Lamb because the great tribulation is now over.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#63
Raptured doesn’t mean resurrected.

Jesus was lifted up on the cross. And it wasn’t a rapture moment.
It was to Christ. When Jesus was snatched away (raptured) he was lifted up disappearing out of sight . Rapture, lifted up, resurrected all one in the same work of God, Six of one a half dozen of the other, sameo, sameo, gone no longer here.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#64
Greetings Osprey!

The key to understanding the chronological order of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19, which divides the book into three parts:

"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. "

What you have seen = Everything from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the church, which also represent the entire church period

What will take place later = The events which take place after the now, i.e. after the church period

That said, we are currently still in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write, i.e. we are still in the church period.

Revelation 4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. That "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" found in Paul's description of the church being gathered in I Thessalonians 4:16. This is why, as Nehemiah6 mentioned in the previous post, we do not see the word "church" anymore within chapters 6 thru 18, but switches exclusively to the word "Saints" and never uses the word "church" again within the narrative of God's wrath. Likewise, in chapters 1 thru 3, we only see the word "church" used, but not the word "Saints." God has made a distinction here to alert those who are diligently searching out His word, which is why those who are opposed to this truth don't see it, but instead contend against it.

The "what is now" will be fulfilled when the Lord descends from heaven to the atmosphere and with that voice that sounds like a trumpet, He will call the entire church up beginning with those who have already died in Him and then immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed and caught up, where according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that He has prepared for us. Once the church has been gathered, then the "what must take place later" will begin, with the antichrist being revealed some time afterwards.

The "what is now" is just above over, for we can see the stage being set for the events that must take place after the church is gone and during the time of God's wrath.

God help those who get trapped in the "what must take place later!"
Who is a Saint? As I understand it Saints are people who are sanctified, set apart by the Holy Spirit in them. In Revelation Christ is speaking to members of seven Church congregations. Were these churches sanctified, were the members saints?

I believe its not God making a distinction but yourself and everyone else who believes as you do. The change between using the term
Church to Saint is simple. The first few chapters are individual messages to seven distinctly named churches. The rest of the book is
addressed to all of them collectively so naming each one repeatedly is avoided by using the term Saints instead of Church.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS WHO DO YOU THINK IS SAVED?

Is it anyone who believes in Jesus Christ? anyone who is born again of the Holy Spirit and has Christ in them the hope of glory?
Or someone who has exactly the same eschatological view as yourself. My belief is that this is your view. So I challenge you
to prove me wrong. Come straight out with it and state which of these views are yours. Am I saved or damned because I dont
hold the same view as you do ?
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#65
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh




The goodman in the parable is the unbeliever who doesn’t watch and has his house broken into.

First Je

Jesus said, had known in what watch the thief would come

He would’ve kept watch during the time of the predicted watch.

Instead he reasoned that he didn’t need to keep watch.
Which thinking Jesus warned you about. You think you know that Jesus is coming before great tribulation, on your click, and so, you end up reasoning that you have no need to watch.
But, Jesus commanded us to watch and pray.


In the same way, since the Lord is going to come like a thief, then believers must also be always watching and anticipating the Lord's appearing to gather us.
For lack of knowledge people perish. The scripture says.

And souls will be lost due to lack of knowledge of end times things. The parable of the ten virgins is a warning to all Christians.

The prophecies are given to us to give us knowledge lest any be lost.

I suspect you are taking the casual, once saved always saved, approach to ignoring the need for understanding.[/QUOTE]
you are not preaching the good news. You are saying if someone's end times view don't line up exactly with yours, that they are an enemy of God/unsaved/reprobate/subject to the judgement. That is a different gospel than the one even you heard.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#66
What you should have said is that it SHOULDNT be a salvation issue but some on this site give a very strong impression that they
believe their particular position is not only 100% correct but their salvation and everyone elses depends on believing it. Its seen by them as a Hallmark of salvation.
hi tanakh. Haven't run into you in a while.
it literally isn't a salvation issue and shouldn't be presented as such because when it is, a false gospel is being preached. It scares me for the man because he is demanding some perfection of knowledge on prophecy that even be himself does not possess. And he will be judged in the manner that he judges.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#67
The above is just your opinion without any scripture to back it up. With just the 4th seal alone, a fourth of the earths population will be killed, which based on the current population would be over 1.7 billion people within that first 3 1/2 years, with Jesus as the One opening the seals, ergo, He is responsible for the fatalities they being apart of His wrath.
The 4th seal doesn't say that 1/4 of men will die. It says that power was given over the 4th part of the land to kill by violence, hunger, disease and wild beasts. Everything in the first 5 seals has been happening for the nearly 2000 years since Christ unsealed them.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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#68
Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


The seventh seal was opened.
Seven angels trumpet the step by step approach of the wrath of God.
The fourth angel trumpets and three woes are announced.

The woes are fulfilled as the final three trumpets.

The seventh angel trumpet presents the wrath of the Lamb saying...

“The kingdoms of this world are becomethe kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

and...

...thy wrath is come and the time of the dead, that they should be judged...[/b]


Then...

“Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.”


Then the seven vials...

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

So the great tribulation was ended.

Then the seventh seal opened.

The first thing of the seal that then occurs is the sealing of the 144,ooo.
( for they will walk securely through the time of wrath)

Next is....

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So it is established that the wrath is stated as coming with the seventh seal after the 144,ooo we’re sealed and the great tribulation ended.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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#69
6 seals

1. white horse
(by satanic deception the beast comes to full global authority)

2. red horse
(the great tribulation begins)

3. black horse
(the great tribulation causes global famine)

4. pale horse
(the great tribulation causes global sicknesses and death)

5. the souls of the slain for Jesus, white robes seen, they await the resurrection.
(proves the great tribulation is ongoing before and after the fifth seal)

6. the signs of day of the Lord appear, the 144,ooo sealed, the great tribulation saints all accounted for.
(proves the great tribulation is over before wrath falls)

7. silence in heaven, seven trumpets announce the increasing of God’s wrath.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#70
To whomever posted this:

Who is a Saint? As I understand it Saints are people who are sanctified, set apart by the Holy Spirit in them. In Revelation Christ is speaking to members of seven Church congregations. Were these churches sanctified, were the members saints?
Though it is true that the word "Ekklesia/Saints" are used interchangeably throughout the NT. Here in Revelation there is a separation, which God put there for those who are diligently seeking the words of this prophecy.

Within chapter 1 thru 3, only the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints."

Likewise, from chapter 4 onward only the word "Hagios/Saints" is found and the word "Ekklesia/church is never seen again within the narrative of God's wrath, even though there are plenty of places that it could have been used. There is a reason for this. The absence of the word "church" means that the church is no longer on the earth, with Rev.4:1-2 being a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. The reference to "Saints" beginning in Rev.5:8 is referring to the great tribulation saints and not the church. You would think that after using the word "church" 19 times within chapter 1 thru 3, that it would be used at least once from chapter 4 onward. yet, its use abruptly stops.

I believe its not God making a distinction but yourself and everyone else who believes as you do. The change between using the term Church to Saint is simple. The first few chapters are individual messages to seven distinctly named churches. The rest of the book is addressed to all of them collectively so naming each one repeatedly is avoided by using the term Saints instead of Church.
The only reason for your claim above is because you are resisting the truth. First of all, the letters are not just to those literal churches of that time, but to the entire church period. And second, at the end of each of those letters we read "He who overcomes" and "he who has an ear" which is directed to each individual believer throughout the entire church period. Therefore, your apologetic regarding the use of the word "Saints" does not apply. The reason for the change is to make a distinction between the church and the saints who will be on the earth after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.



WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS WHO DO YOU THINK IS SAVED?

Is it anyone who believes in Jesus Christ? anyone who is born again of the Holy Spirit and has Christ in them the hope of glory?
Or someone who has exactly the same eschatological view as yourself.
Those who are saved are those who are having faith in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them and who continue in that faith. However, there are some beliefs that prove that a person is truly not a believer, such trusting in one's own works for salvation, that Jesus did not resurrect bodily, that the resurrection has already taken place, as well as number of others.

Those who are not looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, are not trusting in His promise, but are teaching false teachings and are instead putting the church through God's wrath and thereby not really believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. Those who believe this have no understanding of who God's wrath will be directed at and it certainly won't be to those who have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. They also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

My belief is that this is your view. So I challenge you
to prove me wrong.
I have already proved you wrong in multiple posts, but you refuse to believe.

Come straight out with it and state which of these views are yours.
Everything that I post is accompanied by scripture and therefore, not is of my own view. I can't help it if people can't take scripture and put two and two together.

Am I saved or damned because I don't hold the same view as you do ?
I never claimed that you were damned! I merely contending with what you claim is the truth and providing scripture to back it up.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#71
6 seals

1. white horse
(by satanic deception the beast comes to full global authority)
The first seal, rider on the white horse, is beginning of God's wrath with the antichrist being revealed.

2. red horse
(the great tribulation begins)
The 2nd seal/red horse, will take peace from the earth so that men kill one another. This takes place prior to the great tribulation, for Jesus makes it clear that the GT takes place in the middle of the seven years, where the seals take place during the first 3 1/2 years.

3. black horse
(the great tribulation causes global famine)
The 3rd seal/black horse takes place during the first 3 1/2 years and prior to the great tribulation.

4. pale horse
(the great tribulation causes global sicknesses and death)
The 4th seal rider/death and hades, are given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by plague, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth. The 4th seal is the resulting fatalities of the previous seals, which will equal over 1.7 billion people.

5. the souls of the slain for Jesus, white robes seen, they await the resurrection.
(proves the great tribulation is ongoing before and after the fifth seal)
The souls under the altar are not the church, but those who become believers who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years by the inhabitants of the earth most likely as a result of the 2nd seal when peace is taken from the earth. Their fellow servants and brothers mentioned, are the saints who will be killed during the great tribulation period which takes place during that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.

6. the signs of day of the Lord appear, the 144,ooo sealed, the great tribulation saints all accounted for.
(proves the great tribulation is over before wrath falls)
The 6th seal has nothing to do with the 144,000, but is an announcement to the inhabitants of the earth that what they will have previously experienced with the seals is the wrath of God and which also includes the wrath that is still to follow, namely the trumpets and bowl judgments. The great tribulation begins when the abomination is set up, which according to Dan.9:27 will be in the middle of the seven years. I personally believe that the abomination is synonymous with the image of the beast mentioned in Rev.13:14-15

7. silence in heaven, seven trumpets announce the increasing of God’s wrath.[/QUOTE]
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
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#72
You do not think God pouring out all the previous destruction and woe is His anger?
The destruction and woe sent from God occurs under the seventh trumpet.

That is, the wrath occurs after the great tribulation ends, as depicted when the seventh angel trumpets.

The rapturists say that all the seals are the wrath of God.
But the scripture says wrath occurs under the seventh trumpet.

It’s a straight forward accounting of when scripture says the wrath of God occurs.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#73
The destruction and woe sent from God occurs under the seventh trumpet.

That is, the wrath occurs after the great tribulation ends, as depicted when the seventh angel trumpets.
Joseppi,

The last seven years are divided up into two 3 1/2 year periods. The beginning of the seven years is when the antichrist establishes his covenant with Israel, which will allow them to build their temple and begin to sacrifice. in the middle of the seven years, is when that abomination is set up. The following 3 1/2 years, is the great tribulation, which will continue until the end when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. There is no wrath after the end of the tribulation period.

Matt.24:15 marks the middle of the seven years when that abomination is set up.

Matt.24:30-31 marks the end of that last 3 1/2 years, after God's wrath and is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.


The rapturists say that all the seals are the wrath of God. But the scripture says wrath occurs under the seventh trumpet.

It’s a straight forward accounting of when scripture says the wrath of God occurs.
The seals are indeed apart of God's wrath and that because Jesus is the One opening them, which lead into the trumpets and are followed by the bowls. It's not straight forward accounting, because you don't understand that at the 6th seal when it says "the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand" that the words "has come" are in the aorist, which encompasses God's wrath in its entirety. In other words, what they will have already experienced and what is yet to come, namely the trumpets and the bowls. You are looking at the announcement the same way that many do, only considering everything after the announcement as being God's wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowls belong together as God's fulfillment of his wrath. They should not be separated into different categories. In the very first verse of Revelation, God's word says, "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show His servants the things which must soon take place." The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are those things that must soon take place and they are all God's wrath.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#74
To whomever posted this:



Though it is true that the word "Ekklesia/Saints" are used interchangeably throughout the NT. Here in Revelation there is a separation, which God put there for those who are diligently seeking the words of this prophecy.

Within chapter 1 thru 3, only the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints."

Likewise, from chapter 4 onward only the word "Hagios/Saints" is found and the word "Ekklesia/church is never seen again within the narrative of God's wrath, even though there are plenty of places that it could have been used. There is a reason for this. The absence of the word "church" means that the church is no longer on the earth, with Rev.4:1-2 being a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. The reference to "Saints" beginning in Rev.5:8 is referring to the great tribulation saints and not the church. You would think that after using the word "church" 19 times within chapter 1 thru 3, that it would be used at least once from chapter 4 onward. yet, its use abruptly stops.



The only reason for your claim above is because you are resisting the truth. First of all, the letters are not just to those literal churches of that time, but to the entire church period. And second, at the end of each of those letters we read "He who overcomes" and "he who has an ear" which is directed to each individual believer throughout the entire church period. Therefore, your apologetic regarding the use of the word "Saints" does not apply. The reason for the change is to make a distinction between the church and the saints who will be on the earth after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.





Those who are saved are those who are having faith in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them and who continue in that faith. However, there are some beliefs that prove that a person is truly not a believer, such trusting in one's own works for salvation, that Jesus did not resurrect bodily, that the resurrection has already taken place, as well as number of others.

Those who are not looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, are not trusting in His promise, but are teaching false teachings and are instead putting the church through God's wrath and thereby not really believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. Those who believe this have no understanding of who God's wrath will be directed at and it certainly won't be to those who have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. They also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.



I have already proved you wrong in multiple posts, but you refuse to believe.



Everything that I post is accompanied by scripture and therefore, not is of my own view. I can't help it if people can't take scripture and put two and two together.



I never claimed that you were damned! I merely contending with what you claim is the truth and providing scripture to back it up.
I have seen and heard this missing Church after chapter 4 explanation so many times. The word Churches can be found at chapter 22 verse 16 so the myth that the Church is not mentioned after chapter four is rubbish. Also in verse 22 it says the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the Saints. If the Saints are a different group from the Church as you believe then Christs grace is only given to the 'Saints' not the Churches which is strange to say the least.

It also means that most of Revelation was completely irrelevant to the Churches it was first written for. In fact if the church is meant to be Raptured before the tribulation kicks off its mostly irrelevant to modern Churches as well.

I never said you claimed I was Damned. You just insinuate it.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#75
I have seen and heard this missing Church after chapter 4 explanation so many times. The word Churches can be found at chapter 22 verse 16 so the myth that the Church is not mentioned after chapter four is rubbish.
You are correct, and many times I have pointed out that the church is referred to in Rev.19:7-8 under the designation of bride who is receiving her white linen white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. The word "church" is not actually seen again until Rev.22:16, which if you check many of my previous posts on this subject, you will see that I make mention of this often. However, that the word church is not mentioned until Rev.22:16 does not detract from the fact that it is not mention during the narrative of God's wrath, which is what we continue to try and get you to understand. It is mentioned at the closing of the book of Revelation and is not involved in any of the events of wrath from chapter 6 thru 18.

Also in verse 22 it says the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the Saints. If the Saints are a different group from the Church as you believe then Christs grace is only given to the 'Saints' not the Churches which is strange to say the least.
The claim above does not change anything. For grace and peace are offered from God the Father, the seven fold Spirit and from Jesus Christ in Rev.1:4-5. I would also add that, regarding the great tribulation saints, it states that they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Because the church is not also mentioned by name there in Rev.20:6-8, does that mean that they do not rule with Christ during that thousand years? Of course not! For in the letter to Thyatira, promises that "to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations." Authority over the nations is of course referring Christ's millennial kingdom.

It also means that most of Revelation was completely irrelevant to the Churches it was first written for. In fact if the church is meant to be Raptured before the tribulation kicks off its mostly irrelevant to modern Churches as well.
The "what you have seen and the letters to the churches which represents the "what is now" pertains to the church. The letters are meant for every believer in every generation up to this present time and until the resurrection takes place. They are messages to every believer in that, if you find yourself of being guilty of the same rebukes, then the message is to repent. Everything written from chapter 6 does not involve the church directly as far as being on the earth when those events of wrath take place.

However, the book of Revelation is given to the church to warn unbelievers of God's coming wrath and what is going to take place, which makes up the majority of Revelation. Unfortunately, we also use the information in Revelation to warn the so-called believers as well, because of unbelief and because they have been deceived regarding many Biblical truths regarding end-time events, even adding to and taking away from the word of this prophecy.

I never said you claimed I was Damned. You just insinuate it.
My apologies for the above. It was not my fault, as I have been noticing that posts that are from one person, have had the information merged together from another, so that it is two different posters, but one post.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,607
13,017
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#76
It is mentioned at the closing of the book of Revelation and is not involved in any of the events of wrath from chapter 6 thru 18.
That's the point that seems to be missed. And at the end the term "Bride" is used , not "Church".
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#77
It was a different fellow than ahwatukee who was making endtimes view a salvational issue.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#78
The "last trumpet" for the saints is for the completion of their salvation.

The "last trumpet" for the ungodly is for the ultimate outpouring of God's wrath.

Now people should ask themselves what can possibly be common between these two extremes.
'Last'. That's what they have in common. Look at the salvation of the saints and the destruction of the ungodly (the two very things you cite) in the passage about the time of the seventh and last trumpet:

15Then the seventh angel sounded (his trumpet, the last trumpet); and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”-Revelation 11:15-18
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
#79
Though it is true that the word "Ekklesia/Saints" are used interchangeably throughout the NT. Here in Revelation there is a separation, which God put there for those who are diligently seeking the words of this prophecy.
The

Within chapter 1 thru 3, only the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints."

Likewise, from chapter 4 onward only the word "Hagios/Saints" is found and the word "Ekklesia/church is never seen again within the narrative of God's wrath, even though there are plenty of places that it could have been used. There is a reason for this. The absence of the word "church" means that the church is no longer on the earth, with Rev.4:1-2 being a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. The reference to "Saints" beginning in Rev.5:8 is referring to the great tribulation saints and not the church. You would think that after using the word "church" 19 times within chapter 1 thru 3, that it would be used at least once from chapter 4 onward. yet, its use abruptly stops.



The only reason for your claim above is because you are resisting the truth. First of all, the letters are not just to those literal churches of that time, but to the entire church period. And second, at the end of each of those letters we read "He who overcomes" and "he who has an ear" which is directed to each individual believer throughout the entire church period. Therefore, your apologetic regarding the use of the word "Saints" does not apply. The reason for the change is to make a distinction between the church and the saints who will be on the earth after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.





Those who are saved are those who are having faith in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them and who continue in that faith. However, there are some beliefs that prove that a person is truly not a believer, such trusting in one's own works for salvation, that Jesus did not resurrect bodily, that the resurrection has already taken place, as well as number of others.
Those who are not looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, are not trusting in His promise, but are teaching false teachings and are instead putting the church through God's wrath and thereby not really believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. Those who believe this have no understanding of who God's wrath will be directed at and it certainly won't be to those who have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. They also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.


Everything that I post is accompainied by scripture and therefore, not is of my own .
You presented no scripture that saints of God are in the body of Christ.[/QUOTE]
Joseppi,

The last seven years are divided up into two 3 1/2 year periods. The beginning of the seven years is when the antichrist establishes his covenant with Israel, which will allow them to build their temple and begin to sacrifice. in the middle of the seven years, is when that abomination is set up. The following 3 1/2 years, is the great tribulation, which will continue until the end when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. There is no wrath after the end of the tribulation period.

Matt.24:15 marks the middle of the seven years when that abomination is set up.

Matt.24:30-31 marks the end of that last 3 1/2 years, after God's wrath and is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.




The seals are indeed apart of God's wrath and that because Jesus is the One opening them, which lead into the trumpets and are followed by the bowls. It's not straight forward accounting, because you don't understand that at the 6th seal when it says "the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand" that the words "has come" are in the aorist, which encompasses God's wrath in its entirety. In other words, what they will have already experienced and what is yet to come, namely the trumpets and the bowls. You are looking at the announcement the same way that many do, only considering everything after the announcement as being God's wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowls belong together as God's fulfillment of his wrath. They should not be separated into different categories. In the very first verse of Revelation, God's word says, "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show His servants the things which must soon take place." The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are those things that must soon take place and they are all God's wrath.
I presented scriptures that say when the wrath of God is ordained.

Notice that the following says, “the great day of his wrath is come.” Which is stated right after the sixth seal is opened and immediate to the opening of the seventh seal.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

But you say to retranslate the verse above to agree with the false doctrine of a secret rapture?

Now I am not going to ignore what the scripture above states.

Then you reasoned that all the seven seals occur after the great tribulation.

Which I know is not stated in scripture, so I looked for some more evidence and noticed the following.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Notice that when the fifth seal was opened the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and their testimony were seen at that time.

Now you say these are them that died during the great tribulation of the wrath of God.

But note the following....

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

If these souls had seen the wrath of God during the great tribulation beginning with the first seal, then..

How come they testify that the wrath of God hasn’t come yet?

For they plainly state...

“How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

So, it is proven that the saints in the great tribulation testify that God’s judgment hasn’t come as wrath to earth to avenge their blood.

And that they are then told to wait till the full number of them are slain on earth, before the judgment of God’s wrath comes.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

After this comes the seventh seal and the full accounting of all who are slain in the great tribulation.
 

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="Ralph-, post: 3616304, member: 259903"]'Last'. That's what they have in common. Look at the salvation of the saints and the destruction of the ungodly (the two very things you cite) in the passage about the time of the seventh and last trumpet:

15Then the seventh angel sounded (his trumpet, the last trumpet);

Brother Ralph,

I agree that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet. The pre trib teaching that the last trumpet is in Rev 4:1-2 is a misconception. There actually is NO TRUMPET sounded there. Only a VOICE that sounds like a trumpet. There is no reason to show that this is symbolic, no key words or phrases that indicate that it is symbolic Rev 4:1-2. It literally says John was taken through the door, not the kingdom/church.

No resurrection is shown Rev 4:1-2, only John being taken to Jesus.

Those seen in heaven with Jesus and John after Rev 4, are OT saints who were resurrected with Jesus and ascended with Him Eph 4:8-10, 8.



and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

This phrase shows a specific time in prophecy and must be studied closely. Think about it.
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This is parallel to Dan 2:34-35, 45. The statue of the gentile nations that rule over the people of Israel is destroyed. Then the wheat/chaff harvest of souls before the new earth Rev 21 & 22.
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This can only be the #2 resur/rapt of 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24. But see how after the #2 resurrection it is the end where death is destroyed.
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This is the end of the story of the scroll Rev chs 4-11. After the events of the 7th trumpet, this planet is fire.



16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.

Think about what it means when Jesus reigns.

Pre-trib says that Jesus begins to reign at the beginning of the mill. This is where pre trib says that the Antichrist begins his reign. But this is the reign that begins AFTER the stone strikes, on the new earth.



18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”-Revelation 11:15-18

The new earth, no one will be destroying when the new earth is in place.