The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"

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Jan 11, 2013
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That dance.

We are redeemed from sin not saved IN it. Israel wasn't saved IN Egypt. Israel was delivered FROM Egypt. There is no salvation IN sin. It is an oxymoron. Salvation and being in bondage to sin are complete opposites.

?
The biblical definition of sin is:

Transgression of the law 1John3:4

Therefore you must believe the law must be upheld for salvation to take place.

Therefore(you must believe) we
have rightstanding before God only upon obediance to the law.

Paul's Gospel hangs on a person knowing that salvation does not depend on obediance to the law.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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oh...it's the pentecostal thing.
okay...
According to "some" people around here, psychobabble is all Pentecostals are good at. So, judging by "their" assessments, I should know it when I see it. :)

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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According to "some" people around here, psychobabble is all Pentecostals are good at. So, judging by "their" assessments, I should know it when I see it. :)

i don't know who said "psychobabble is all Pentecostals are good at"....i've said speaking in unintelligible noises is absurd.
i have pentecostal friends.

i still know the languages in Acts were not glossolalia - am i supposed to pretend they are?
why do you care?
anyway..isn't this derailing the thread?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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That dance.

We are redeemed from sin not saved IN it. Israel wasn't saved IN Egypt. Israel was delivered FROM Egypt.
why are you redefining sin to be geographical egypt?

are you saying the people who entered the PROMISED LAND were sinless?

why then the Law?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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OOOOOO.....nice one....... You came up with that all by yourself, did you? I'd hate to think you copied and pasted that off of a website. ;)


stephen, i'm a cessationist, okay?
and an amillennialist, and a whole bunch of other things you are not.
if you don't like that, that's fine.
if you don't like me as a person that's fine too.

i have a posting style, you have a posting style.

are you okay with all that?
are we adversaries?
 
Nov 26, 2011
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a serial murderer would stop murdering.
don't ya get that weirdo?
That's right. God's forgiveness is conditional on the rebellion ceasing. The rebellion ceases though the working of a genuine repentance.

Thieves stop stealing, porn watchers stop viewing porn, adulterers stop committing adultery, drunkards stop getting drunk. etc.

This is precisely what I mean about the sin having to stop. Not perfection, not never making a mistake. Simply the known sins of the flesh stop PRIOR to God granting forgiveness.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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Skinski
I asked you this question on another thread, but you did not answer it. I hope on this thread of which you are the author you will

When does the Holy Spirit enter a persons life, at conversion, or at a later time?
Thank you
The influence of the Holy Spirit is already in the world convicting people of sin, righteousness and judgment thus it can be said the Spirit is with us. The actual indwelling of the Holy Spirit though follows conversion.

I quite like how Tertullian explained it...

To Him John, as His harbinger, directed the repentance (which he preached), whose province was the purging of men's minds, that whatever defilement inveterate error had imparted, whatever contamination in the heart of man ignorance had engendered, that repentance should sweep and scrape away, and cast out of doors, and thus prepare the home of the heart, by making it clean, for the Holy Spirit, who was about to supervene, that He might with pleasure introduce Himself there-into, together with His celestial blessings.
CHURCH FATHERS: On Repentance (Tertullian)

Scriptures that refer to it are...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

G342 - Renewing - anakainōsis
From G341; renovation: - renewing.

G403 - Refreshing - anapsuxis
From G404; properly a recovery of breath, that is, (figuratively) revival: - revival.

What are your thoughts?
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
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The biblical definition of sin is:

Transgression of the law 1John3:4

Therefore you must believe the law must be upheld for salvation to take place.

Therefore(you must believe) we
have rightstanding before God only upon obediance to the law.

Paul's Gospel hangs on a person knowing that salvation does not depend on obediance to the law.
The law is upheld by faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The reason faith upholds the law is because faith works by love.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

And love fulfills the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So it is not in "obedience to the letter."
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Rather it is in "obedience to the Spirit" of the law that we find freedom from the bondage of the letter.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It is for this reason that those in Christ are not under condemnation. Not because Jesus was punished in your place or that Jesus obeyed in your place. Rather it is because we walk after the Spirit in love which is what abiding in Christ is all about.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us because love fulfills the law. Hence the law is upheld by a faith that works by love in the heart.

Being set free from condemnation also has to do with the blood being shed for remission. Again not Jesus being punished in your place and absorbing the wrath of God, no, rather Jesus offering Himself on you behalf so that His blood can purify your conscience of dead works whereby you are forgiven of your previous sin by the forbearance of God. In other words REDEMPTION and REMISSION.

That is what the Bible clearly teaches!
 
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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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The influence of the Holy Spirit is already in the world convicting people of sin, righteousness and judgment thus it can be said the Spirit is with us. The actual indwelling of the Holy Spirit though follows conversion.

I quite like how Tertullian explained it...


CHURCH FATHERS: On Repentance (Tertullian)

Scriptures that refer to it are...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

G342 - Renewing - anakainōsis
From G341; renovation: - renewing.

G403 - Refreshing - anapsuxis
From G404; properly a recovery of breath, that is, (figuratively) revival: - revival.

What are your thoughts?
Tertullian's later writings contradicted the NT.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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It is about both. Two specific men and what they did and the examples they left for us to follow.
Sorry, Skinski, your doctrine is driving the Scriptures.

There is no basis in the text of Ro 5:12-21 for personification, only for specification.

You cannot show personification in the text.

Zone,

You simply cannot address the specific points I raise with Scripture.
Speaking of which:

"You simply cannot address the specific points I raise with Scripture," in the following:

The wrath of God is the justice of God.

The answer to your question "Where does Scripture teach Jesus' satisfaction of God's wrath/justice?"
is in your answers to my questions:

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time,so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What "passed over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

Until you present a consistent and Biblical explanation of the questions above,

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)

"Go and learn what (Ro 3:25-26) means." (Mt 9:13)

The Reformers taught that all are born already guilty and condemned.

Augustine and the Reformers were wrong. An individual is accountable for their own sin because without the law sin is not imputed. A baby is not guilty nor is a baby condemned because they have no knowledge of good or evil and are in fact in a neutral position subject to the lusts of the flesh.
"An individual is accountable for their own sin because without the law sin is not imputed."

That doesn't even make sense.

You don't have a clue regarding the meaning of Ro 5:12-21, which has already been covered with you (here) in the following:

The Bible teaches that we are all born in bondage to sin, sold to sin by Adam (Ro 5:12-14).
The argument of the text is as follows:

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23), and all sin is transgression of the law (1Jn 3:4).
However, there was no law to transgress between Adam and Moses, and yet all mankind died (v.14).
Because death is the wages of sin, their death means they were guilty of sin (v.12).

But sin is not taken into account when there is no law (v.13).
So what sin were those between Adam and Moses guilty of that caused their death?

Their death was caused by the transgression of one man, of which transgression
all mankind was held guilty (Ro 5:15), which is why all men died between Adam and Moses
even though sin was not taken into account, and is the only cause of death.

All mankind is born in bondage to sin by their descent from Adam, who sold them to sin (Ro 7:14).
Men did not sell themselves into bondage to sin. Mankind inherited their bondage to sin from Adam,
caused by his transgression of the law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."

Therefore, all mankind is by their sinful nature born an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

Because you are clueless about the meaning of Ro 3:25-26 (and, therefore, cannot present a consistent and Biblical explanation of my questions regarding it) you are, therefore, clueless about the meaning of Ro 5:12-21.

So any further discussion witih you on atonement or God's gift of righteousness is unproductive until you present that consistent and Biblical explanation of my questions above.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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stephen, i'm a cessationist, okay?
and an amillennialist, and a whole bunch of other things you are not.
if you don't like that, that's fine.
if you don't like me as a person that's fine too.

i have a posting style, you have a posting style.

are you okay with all that?
are we adversaries?
Why do you insist on continuing to throw the religion card at me by first saying, "oh I get it, you're Pentecostal", and now accuse me for arguing with you because I don't like cessationists and an amillennialists? I don't have problems with either of them. You might be full of something, but it's not the Spirit!
Here's the real reason why I called you out in the first place:


a serial murderer would stop murdering.
don't ya get that weirdo?
Are we name calling again?
I see this a lot in your posts. Simple mocking and name-calling. It seems to be okay as long as you're doing it, but it just ain't right when someone calls you out on it. I wasn't even being serious with you about it till you got huffy. When you do this to people, you look like you have a superiority complex. It also looks like you're trying to make the other person look stupid. Neither is Christlike. But don't you worry........ I won't do it again........ till the next time I catch you calling somebody names. :p
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Why do you insist on continuing to throw the religion card at me by first saying, "oh I get it, you're Pentecostal", and now accuse me for arguing with you because I don't like cessationists and an amillennialists? I don't have problems with either of them. You might be full of something, but it's not the Spirit!
Here's the real reason why I called you out in the first place:
oh nonsense.
you brought out the pentecostal card.
call me out all you want.

skinski's a heretic. okay?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Sorry, Skinski, your doctrine is driving the Scriptures.

There is no basis in the text of Ro 5:12-21 for personification, only for specification.

You cannot show personification in the text.


Speaking of which:

"You simply cannot address the specific points I raise with Scripture," in the following:

The wrath of God is the justice of God.

The answer to your question "Where does Scripture teach Jesus' satisfaction of God's wrath/justice?"
is in your answers to my questions:

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time,so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What "passed over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

2) The "what passed over" consisted precisely of?

3) How did the "what passed over" demonstrate God's justice?

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

Until you present a consistent and Biblical explanation of the questions above,

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)

"Go and learn what (Ro 3:25-26) means." (Mt 9:13)


"An individual is accountable for their own sin because without the law sin is not imputed."

That doesn't even make sense.

You don't have a clue regarding the meaning of Ro 5:12-21, which has already been covered with you (here) in the following:

The Bible teaches that we are all born in bondage to sin, sold to sin by Adam (Ro 5:12-14).
The argument of the text is as follows:

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23), and all sin is transgression of the law (1Jn 3:4).
However, there was no law to transgress between Adam and Moses, and yet all mankind died (v.14).
Because death is the wages of sin, their death means they were guilty of sin (v.12).

But sin is not taken into account when there is no law (v.13).
So what sin were those between Adam and Moses guilty of that caused their death?

Their death was caused by the transgression of one man, of which transgression
all mankind was held guilty (Ro 5:15), which is why all men died between Adam and Moses
even though sin was not taken into account, and is the only cause of death.

All mankind is born in bondage to sin by their descent from Adam, who sold them to sin (Ro 7:14).
Men did not sell themselves into bondage to sin. Mankind inherited their bondage to sin from Adam,
caused by his transgression of the law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."

Therefore, all mankind is by their sinful nature born an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

Because you are clueless about the meaning of Ro 3:25-26 (and, therefore, cannot present a consistent and Biblical explanation of my questions regarding it) you are, therefore, clueless about the meaning of Ro 5:12-21.

So any further discussion witih you on atonement or God's gift of righteousness is unproductive until you present that consistent and Biblical explanation of my questions above.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
It is about both. Two specific men and what they did and the examples they left for us to follow.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Augustine taught that all men sinned "in" Adam. The Reformers upheld this view either with the doctrine of the Natural Head (we were all in the seed) or the Federal Head (Adam was the representative). Thus The Reformers taught that all are born already guilty and condemned.

Augustine and the Reformers were wrong. An individual is accountable for their own sin because without the law sin is not imputed. A baby is not guilty nor is a baby condemned because they have no knowledge of good or evil and are in fact in a neutral position subject to the lusts of the flesh.


PELAGIANISM


Everyone is responsible for his own sin, not for the sin of Adam. (Adam's sin was only a bad example for us).
Some men can be saved simply by living up to the light they have been given (apart from the Bible)
Thus, the gospel is not necessary for salvation
Man, on his own, can choose to follow God or refuse to do so
he does not need God to remove any "blindness"
he does not need special grace or illumination from God
In his lifetime, he may receive many opportunities to choose to be saved
The Bible, the Holy Spirit, and the officers of the church may present the choice, but they cannot go beyond making the alternative to follow God both reasonable and beneficial
God does not save the lost, He only ratifies the sinner's decision to be saved
 
Aug 15, 2009
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oh nonsense.
you brought out the pentecostal card.
call me out all you want.

skinski's a heretic. okay?
Well, let's just see who threw the Pentecostal card............

So,zone, you think I'm being discriminatory, do you? sounds like psychobabble to me........... just sayin' :rolleyes:
oh...it's the pentecostal thing.
okay...
I'm not trying to be mean here, I'm just trying to get you to take responsibility for your actions. That's what we're all supposed to do as Christians. I could respect a person regardless of who they are if they just fess up when they're caught. :)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Well, let's just see who through the Pentecostal card............

I'm not trying to be mean here, I'm just trying to get you to take responsibility for your actions. That's what we're all supposed to do as Christians. I could respect a person regardless of who they are if they just fess up when they're caught. :)
huh?
sounds like blah blah.
caught what?

Originally Posted by Stephen63
So,zone, you think I'm being discriminatory, do you? sounds like psychobabble to me........... just sayin'

like....okay stephen. if you say so.

now could we purleeze...i'm trying to read the thread.:)
my sister elin is working.
ty
z

start a new thread or something if you want to "zone caught in psychobabble or whatevah"....thanks
 
Aug 15, 2009
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huh?
sounds like blah blah.
caught what?

Originally Posted by Stephen63
So,zone, you think I'm being discriminatory, do you? sounds like psychobabble to me........... just sayin'

like....okay stephen. if you say so.

now could we purleeze...i'm trying to read the thread.:)
my sister elin is working.
ty
z

start a new thread or something if you want to "zone caught in psychobabble or whatevah"....thanks
Naw, I can't start a thread like that. The last guy that did one did it on "zoneyism", and got banned for it. I saw it just before it got pulled off the forums. I would never consider doing such an awful thing as that. I don't know what gets into you to tell me to do something like that. Don't act like you don't understand the 'caught' part, either. I know better.:rolleyes:
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Naw, I can't start a thread like that. The last guy that did one did it on "zoneyism", and got banned for it. I saw it just before it got pulled off the forums. I would never consider doing such an awful thing as that. I don't know what gets into you to tell me to do something like that. Don't act like you don't understand the 'caught' part, either. I know better.:rolleyes:
hmmm....um...caught calling skinski a name? uh....i posted it in the open.
caught trying to skip over whatever you were trying to say? sorry about that.
caught assuming it was pay-back for the other thing about pen.....er....



k stephen.
can i go now bud?:cool:
 
Jan 11, 2013
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. The actual indwelling of the Holy Spirit though follows conversion.

IQUOTE]

The above was what I was interested in knowing, thanks for your response
Only some who have beliefs that seem close to yours either are not sure when the Holy Spirit indwells a person, or believes it happens once glorification has taken place
 
Jan 11, 2013
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The law is upheld by faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The reason faith upholds the law is because faith works by love.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

And love fulfills the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So it is not in "obedience to the letter."
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Rather it is in "obedience to the Spirit" of the law that we find freedom from the bondage of the letter.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It is for this reason that those in Christ are not under condemnation. Not because Jesus was punished in your place or that Jesus obeyed in your place. Rather it is because we walk after the Spirit in love which is what abiding in Christ is all about.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us because love fulfills the law. Hence the law is upheld by a faith that works by love in the heart.

Being set free from condemnation also has to do with the blood being shed for remission. Again not Jesus being punished in your place and absorbing the wrath of God, no, rather Jesus offering Himself on you behalf so that His blood can purify your conscience of dead works whereby you are forgiven of your previous sin by the forbearance of God. In other words REDEMPTION and REMISSION.

That is what the Bible clearly teaches!
You are either not understanding the obvious point I am making or sidetracking away from it
You make the stipulation for salvation, of ceasing from sin
Sin is transgression of the law
Therefore you make a condition for salvation of obediance to the law, no way around that I am afraid, though obviously you won't come out and plainly word it that way
Paul's Gospel of victory over sin hangs on obediance to the law not being a requirement for salvation.

This is what you seem unable to grasp, and yet, it is the core of Paul's Gospel.

Also, I don't think you understand what the demands of the law actually are. The law is not upheld simply by not watching 'porno' films as you put it, or abstaining from drunkeness, foul language, or many other things you often mention, it goes far deeper than that.

Bjut as I say, you seem not to undertsand that on which Paul's Gospel hinges on believing. I feel this is because you do not understand the new covenanat, namely the following:

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord
I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remeber no more
Heb10:16&17

If you understood the above scripture, you could not make the pronouncements you do on this website
Unfortunately the churches who preach what you believe will not preach the new covenant
Either becasue they do not understand it
Or they are afraid of the persecution they will ghet if they do preach it
Or they are afraid people will use it is a licence to sin
Something the sincere could not do according to those verses in Hebrews I quoted

Therefore, your churches preach the absolute pure literal goal of Christianity, without preaching the message of victory over sin
Which means, scripturally you cannot live up to what you demand of others